Jan. 29, 2026

Paula McGowan OBE: Oliver's Legacy - Autism, Addiction & Safety in Care

Paula McGowan OBE: Oliver's Legacy - Autism, Addiction & Safety in Care
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Paula McGowan OBE: Oliver's Legacy - Autism, Addiction & Safety in Care
Paula McGowan OBE: Oliver's Legacy - Autism, Addiction & Safety in Care
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Season 1

Paula McGowan OBE joins Believe in People for a full, in-depth conversation about her son Oliver, whose death led to the introduction of The Oliver McGowan Mandatory Training across health and social care in England. 

Paula explains how people are too often doubted, judged, or written off in services, how distress is misread as behaviour or non-compliance, and how bias, fear, and rigid systems can escalate harm. Drawing directly from Oliver’s story, this conversation challenges professionals to reflect on power, responsibility, and what must change in everyday practice to prevent avoidable harm and loss of life.

What Is The Oliver McGowan Mandatory Training?

The Oliver McGowan Mandatory Training was introduced following Oliver’s death to address systemic failures where autistic people and people with a learning disability were not listened to, misunderstood, or harmed through avoidable mistakes. The training is now a legal requirement for health and social care staff in England.

Information about the training and statutory expectations can be found here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/oliver-mcgowan-code-of-practice/the-oliver-mcgowan-draft-code-of-practice-on-statutory-learning-disability-and-autism-training

Training availability and booking information can be found here:

https://www.olivermcgowantraining.com/book-training

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If you want to change your direction, grow as a person, and live life to its full potential, Change Grow Live is here to help you. We’re here for you if you need help with challenges including drugs or alcohol, trouble with housing, domestic abuse, or your mental and physical wellbeing. Change Grow Live services are free and confidential. Click the link below to refer yourself to your local service.

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📩 Podcast Contact: robbie@believeinpeoplepodcast.com
🎵 Music: “Jonathan Tortoise” by Christopher Tait (Belle Ghoul / Electric Six)

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...

Chapters

00:00 - Welcome And Why Belief Matters

03:20 - Oliver’s Story And Power Dynamics

09:30 - Bias, Fear, And The Cost Of Not Knowing

17:20 - Misread Distress And Wrong Medication

25:10 - Reasonable Adjustments In Real Life

33:40 - Stigma In Waiting Rooms And Reception

41:00 - Labels Versus Communication

48:40 - Defensive Practice And Systemic Harm

56:00 - Ask, Listen, Do: Practical Steps

Transcript
WEBVTT

00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:02.479
This is a Renew Original Recording.

00:00:02.799 --> 00:00:11.919
Hello and welcome to Believe in People, a two-time Radio Academy Award-nominated and British Podcast award-winning series about all things addiction, recovery, and stigma.

00:00:12.160 --> 00:00:16.719
My name is Matthew Butler, and I'm your host, or is Alex Sir, your facilitator.

00:00:17.199 --> 00:00:20.320
Today's episode is a difficult one, but an essential listener.

00:00:20.480 --> 00:00:28.879
I'm joined by Paula, the mother of Oliver McGowan, whose death exposed what can happen when lived experience is dismissed or overridden by professional assumptions.

00:00:29.120 --> 00:00:36.880
Oliver's story became a national turning point because it forces us to confront how systems respond to people who are seen as different, complex, or difficult.

00:00:37.679 --> 00:00:42.719
In drugical services, we work with people who are doubted, judged, and written off quickly.

00:00:42.960 --> 00:00:48.159
Many are living with trauma, and many may also be autistic, have ADHD or a learning disability.

00:00:48.320 --> 00:00:49.840
Are you noticed or not?

00:00:50.159 --> 00:00:56.159
In environments built around appointments, verbal communication and compliance, the risks can escalate fast.

00:00:56.560 --> 00:01:05.680
Paula speaks with clarity about bias, fear, power, and defensive practice, and about what reasonable adjustments actually look like in real moments of distress.

00:01:06.640 --> 00:01:12.879
But this conversation is not about blame, it's about learning, listening, and building systems that keep people safe.

00:01:13.200 --> 00:01:17.519
We begin today's conversation with a question that sits at the heart of drug and alcohol services.

00:01:17.760 --> 00:01:21.760
Why is believing people so fundamental to safety and dignity in treatment?

00:01:22.079 --> 00:01:25.120
Paula, thank you so much for joining me on Believing People.

00:01:25.359 --> 00:01:26.400
You are more than welcome.

00:01:27.439 --> 00:01:28.959
It's lovely to have you here.

00:01:29.280 --> 00:01:37.359
A lot of things I want to cover today because obviously such a tragic but interesting story that does need to be told.

00:01:37.680 --> 00:01:47.840
Oliver's story shows what can happen when lived experience from the person themselves and from their family is dismissed or overridden by professional assumptions.

00:01:48.079 --> 00:01:54.480
In drug and alcohol services, people are often doubted, judged or written off very quickly.

00:01:54.799 --> 00:02:03.680
Why is believing people so fundamental to safety and dignity in treatment and addiction treatment?

00:02:04.159 --> 00:02:06.319
I think it starts with bias.

00:02:06.560 --> 00:02:08.800
It starts with misunderstanding.

00:02:09.520 --> 00:02:11.759
It's about lack of education.

00:02:12.240 --> 00:02:14.639
It's about not always listening.

00:02:15.360 --> 00:02:20.159
And it's about not always accepting anybody that's different to ourselves.

00:02:20.400 --> 00:02:21.680
There's also a fear.

00:02:22.479 --> 00:02:26.800
So for me, it always comes back to education and knowledge.

00:02:27.439 --> 00:02:29.120
It's never acceptable, is it really?

00:02:29.919 --> 00:02:35.360
Especially in drug and alcohol abuse when people need help and support most.

00:02:36.000 --> 00:02:38.400
Can you tell me a little bit more about why it comes back to fear?

00:02:38.639 --> 00:02:42.319
Well, I think people are people are always scared of what they don't know.

00:02:42.719 --> 00:02:44.319
It's it's the unknown, isn't it?

00:02:44.479 --> 00:02:52.560
And people don't always want to face challenges that they don't understand or are feel unable to support.

00:02:53.840 --> 00:02:58.560
I think it's the fear of the unknown and fear of unpredicta predictability.

00:02:59.199 --> 00:02:59.599
Absolutely.

00:03:00.159 --> 00:03:05.120
Not many professionals want to put their hand up and say, I don't know.

00:03:05.439 --> 00:03:06.000
Yes.

00:03:06.319 --> 00:03:07.199
That's interesting.

00:03:07.360 --> 00:03:16.800
Because I I guess looking back, how much of what happened do you think what was about lack of knowledge and how much of it was about power?

00:03:17.120 --> 00:03:22.719
I think what I mean by that is what when I mean I've I've I've naturally visited GPs myself.

00:03:22.879 --> 00:03:24.080
I work with doctors.

00:03:24.319 --> 00:03:27.599
I often find there's this, I call it the God complex.

00:03:27.919 --> 00:03:31.520
Do you know when you challenge the doctor, it's almost like they don't like to be wrong.

00:03:31.759 --> 00:03:38.800
And sometimes I almost get the impression that when they also know they are wrong, they don't want to admit it because they're the professional.

00:03:38.960 --> 00:03:42.240
They're the ones with that extensive amount of knowledge and experience.

00:03:42.479 --> 00:03:46.080
How much of it was about lack of knowledge and how much of it was about power?

00:03:46.400 --> 00:03:54.000
There was an awful lot about that actually in Oliver's case, and exactly why Oliver's death has become so high profile.

00:03:54.479 --> 00:04:02.400
Throughout Oliver's story, his voice and our voices were not heard, we were not listened to, and they were not seen as important.

00:04:02.800 --> 00:04:08.960
Red flags when Oliver was he was in crisis as in after he'd been intubated.

00:04:09.120 --> 00:04:14.400
We, as Oliver's parents, who knew him best, we could see things were going drastically wrong.

00:04:14.560 --> 00:04:18.480
We could see his life was in crisis.

00:04:19.360 --> 00:04:24.160
And when I say that, obviously he's intubated, and we could see he's looking very different.

00:04:24.240 --> 00:04:27.680
And we we highlighted this to the doctors over and over.

00:04:27.920 --> 00:04:30.959
We kept saying um things are going very wrong with Oliver.

00:04:31.040 --> 00:04:31.920
We're really worried.

00:04:32.079 --> 00:04:37.759
And they looked us squarely in the eye and told us, we will tell you when you need to be worried.

00:04:38.399 --> 00:04:42.319
His temperature was at 42 degrees and rising.

00:04:42.639 --> 00:04:49.279
And again, we you know, when I look back, I was running around with paper towels trying to bring that temperature down.

00:04:49.519 --> 00:04:55.040
He wasn't given any medication to control that temperature, but the doctors knew better.

00:04:56.480 --> 00:05:06.319
When we brought Oliver to hospital, and in that journey throughout that last year of his life, so it wasn't just the last hospital, it was the children's hospital before that.

00:05:06.639 --> 00:05:17.920
When he was in hospital, I truly believed that the medics, clinicians, nurses, doctors knew everything there was to know about a diagnosis of autism and a learning disability.

00:05:18.000 --> 00:05:19.680
I thought they knew more than me.

00:05:20.000 --> 00:05:22.079
In actual fact, that's my profession.

00:05:22.399 --> 00:05:26.720
I I work with children with additional needs, focusing on autism.

00:05:26.800 --> 00:05:29.439
And obviously, I'd lived with Oliver my whole life.

00:05:29.759 --> 00:05:32.879
And I honestly believed that they knew more.

00:05:33.120 --> 00:05:38.240
And not once did anybody put their hand up and say, I don't know.

00:05:38.399 --> 00:05:40.160
How can we help Oliver best?

00:05:40.480 --> 00:05:46.879
Not one person stopped to ask Oliver himself, who was very able to say, Oliver, how can we help you?

00:05:47.439 --> 00:05:54.000
Nobody was brave enough to say, and I will use that word brave, nobody was brave enough to say, I don't know.

00:05:54.480 --> 00:05:55.199
And that's wrong.

00:05:55.439 --> 00:05:56.399
First of all, it's wrong.

00:05:56.480 --> 00:05:58.240
It was wrong for patient safety.

00:05:58.319 --> 00:06:01.360
It was wrong for Oliver because it cost him his life.

00:06:01.680 --> 00:06:04.639
But it also for our medics, it's wrong for them.

00:06:04.800 --> 00:06:13.279
You know, we wouldn't ask anybody to go and repair a car or an engine if they've not had this, they haven't got the skills or they haven't had the trainer to do so.

00:06:13.439 --> 00:06:24.800
Why do we ask our medics, our clinicians, our health and social care practitioners to go out and support individuals if they've not had adequate training to do so?

00:06:25.199 --> 00:06:28.480
And I just felt that was so wrong and it needs to be addressed.

00:06:28.800 --> 00:06:30.639
I I've got a lot of admiration for you.

00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:40.720
When when I did Oliver's training, the thing that really struck me was right at the beginning, one of the first things you said that this isn't about blame, it's not about pointing fingers.

00:06:41.120 --> 00:06:47.120
As a as a parent myself, and and funnily enough, I just had this conversation with your with your husband in the reception area.

00:06:47.360 --> 00:07:05.360
I think I'd found it really hard not to want to point blame and and not really want to, I guess, feel I'm not saying you weren't angry, but I just think it's really admirable that you're you're in this place where in this training you do say it isn't about pointing fingers or blaming professionals.

00:07:05.600 --> 00:07:07.279
Can you talk to me a little bit more about that?

00:07:07.519 --> 00:07:10.160
I think generally that is the case.

00:07:10.319 --> 00:07:17.839
You know, you mentioned developer practitioners, so some doctors being godlike, and that was the case with Oliver.

00:07:18.160 --> 00:07:22.879
And you know, you I don't Oliver's training is absolutely not about blame.

00:07:23.519 --> 00:07:30.560
The individuals that were instrumental in Oliver's death, I compartmentalize.

00:07:30.879 --> 00:07:35.120
I don't think about those practitioners because that's not going to help anybody.

00:07:35.680 --> 00:07:40.879
However, 99.9% of practitioners want to do the right thing.

00:07:41.040 --> 00:07:42.160
They go into that profession.

00:07:42.319 --> 00:07:47.360
Well, I'd actually say 100% generally, go into that profession to do the right thing.

00:07:48.240 --> 00:07:53.040
So we are not going to get anywhere if we constantly go around blaming, pointing fingers.

00:07:53.120 --> 00:07:54.720
We want to bring about real change.

00:07:54.879 --> 00:07:59.279
And to bring about real change, we must work together collaboratively as a team.

00:07:59.519 --> 00:08:08.959
And we must keep, you know, in this instance, obviously all of us training is about autistic people, people with a learning disability, neurodivergent people.

00:08:09.120 --> 00:08:11.839
They must be at the very heart of everything.

00:08:12.079 --> 00:08:14.399
And we must learn directly from them.

00:08:14.800 --> 00:08:15.920
That is essential.

00:08:17.360 --> 00:08:23.279
Oliver's autistic behaviours were repeatedly misunderstood, even when clearly documented.

00:08:23.519 --> 00:08:33.679
In drug and alcohol services, many people are autistic or have a learning disability without a diagnosis and often have long histories of trauma and exclusion.

00:08:34.240 --> 00:08:44.639
What risks does that create in services that are built around appointments, verbal communications, and this general expectation of compliance?

00:08:45.200 --> 00:08:46.879
Huge risks, isn't it, really?

00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:55.039
Because obviously, again, it comes down to that ignorance from professionals, you know, the stigma from our neurodivergent individuals.

00:08:55.200 --> 00:09:00.639
You know, they are in crisis, as you've just said, addiction, they're seeking support and help.

00:09:00.879 --> 00:09:02.480
And the help just isn't there, is it?

00:09:02.639 --> 00:09:09.440
So a huge risk to our communities that are desperately in need of support.

00:09:09.519 --> 00:09:19.519
And it just isn't there because, of course, you know, traditionally, from my understanding, supporting people with addictions is usually talking therapies.

00:09:19.759 --> 00:09:22.480
You know, we were all familiar with Alcoholics Anominous.

00:09:22.559 --> 00:09:22.720
Yeah.

00:09:22.960 --> 00:09:26.879
That is awful for generally for a neurodivergent person.

00:09:27.200 --> 00:09:32.559
That is a that is a therapy that is never going to work and actually would cause far more anxiety.

00:09:32.879 --> 00:09:40.559
And the impact of that on a neurodivergent person is that they will, if they're addicted already, they're going to seek further addiction.

00:09:40.960 --> 00:09:45.360
So the risk of would we call them clinicians or therapists?

00:09:45.600 --> 00:09:46.720
Clinicians, therapists, yeah.

00:09:47.039 --> 00:09:53.440
Not understanding neurodivergent person, people, whether they're diagnosed or not, is very, very high.

00:09:53.679 --> 00:10:03.279
And this is exactly why we've always said every person, health and social care, working with the public, must all receive Oliver's training.

00:10:03.519 --> 00:10:12.879
And I've had, especially particularly from social care, practitioners coming forward and saying, Well, we only have old people in our practice, we only have wherever.

00:10:13.039 --> 00:10:20.720
And we say, Well, actually, you don't know whether your the next patient you have is going to be autistic or may have a learning disability.

00:10:20.960 --> 00:10:23.759
Or the older generations don't tend to have the diagnosis.

00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:24.240
Yes.

00:10:24.480 --> 00:10:25.600
It's been bypassed.

00:10:25.759 --> 00:10:26.960
You do not know.

00:10:27.200 --> 00:10:31.039
So this is we're trying to reduce that risk.

00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:35.440
I don't think we'll always be able to, you know, uh get rid of it altogether.

00:10:36.480 --> 00:10:45.039
It's funny you should say that with older people not having that diagnosis, because that's sometimes the rhetoric that you hear of we never had any of this autism back in my day.

00:10:45.279 --> 00:10:51.200
Like, you know, it was there, but as you as you said, you know, it was it was undiagnosed in in a lot of people.

00:10:51.360 --> 00:11:00.320
I suppose what I I guess how how do you get or maybe encourage, you know, care homes, people working with older people to to have that understanding as well.

00:11:00.639 --> 00:11:05.679
So at the start of this podcast, I talked about knowledge and education.

00:11:06.080 --> 00:11:09.600
And it comes back to that again, time after time after time.

00:11:09.759 --> 00:11:12.240
It comes back to educating people.

00:11:12.799 --> 00:11:15.679
It's difficult when people don't want to be educated.

00:11:16.080 --> 00:11:21.120
It's difficult when people don't always respect neurodivergent people.

00:11:22.960 --> 00:11:27.679
But this is a them thing rather than a those thing.

00:11:27.840 --> 00:11:28.320
Yeah.

00:11:28.559 --> 00:11:32.159
And it says an awful lot about those that don't want to be educated.

00:11:32.799 --> 00:11:34.000
It's awful, really, isn't it?

00:11:34.240 --> 00:11:34.399
Yeah.

00:11:34.559 --> 00:11:44.399
I I I think the interesting thing is families will notice those subtle changes long before you know people get to any any form of crisis point.

00:11:44.720 --> 00:11:50.559
What kind of sounds or warnings did you recognise that professionals dismissed it?

00:11:50.639 --> 00:11:55.200
And how can services learn to value that knowledge that you mentioned?

00:11:55.519 --> 00:12:00.480
I think in Oliver's case it was very different because he'd been brought to hospital having seizures.

00:12:00.720 --> 00:12:05.519
And of course, Oliver's training is all about reasonable, understanding reasonable adjustments.

00:12:05.600 --> 00:12:10.159
And reasonable adjustments were not made for Oliver in any way, shape, or form.

00:12:10.399 --> 00:12:24.080
Practitioners were not prepared to listen to Oliver himself, they were not prepared to listen to us, and they certainly were never going to make reasonable adjustments purely because they didn't understand the reasons why and what that could do to help Oliver and help themselves.

00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:30.240
So what they didn't see in Oliver, like I said, he he was having seizures, which made him scared and anxious.

00:12:30.399 --> 00:12:41.519
And instead of, like I said, listening first, but instead of backing away and altering their communication methods because, you know, practitioners would stand over him and they would speak in medical jargon.

00:12:41.679 --> 00:12:50.000
And that you could see the anxiety from the practitioners, and that impacted Oliver and heightened his anxiety even further.

00:12:50.159 --> 00:12:53.679
You know, they could have talked about, I think Liverpool was playing that night.

00:12:53.840 --> 00:12:55.840
Oliver was a massive Liverpool fan.

00:12:56.000 --> 00:12:58.000
The I think the X Factor was on.

00:12:58.320 --> 00:13:03.679
If they'd have just used humour, and we kept saying that, you know, talk about talk about what's on the TV tonight.

00:13:03.840 --> 00:13:05.440
That's what he's looking forward to.

00:13:05.600 --> 00:13:07.600
And it was just totally ignored.

00:13:08.240 --> 00:13:16.080
But if they'd have understood better and if they'd have used their ears and listened a bit more, that would have reduced Oliver's anxiety hugely.

00:13:16.240 --> 00:13:22.320
And that came out and it's Oliver had a learning disability mortality review investigations.

00:13:22.480 --> 00:13:26.240
It's known as leader, and that actually was one of the biggest points that came out.

00:13:26.480 --> 00:13:27.679
Reasonable adjustments.

00:13:28.080 --> 00:13:31.840
They should have been made when he was in the AE department that night.

00:13:32.240 --> 00:13:40.480
Instead, what they did was increase chemical restraint, ketamine, I think maybe, I think it was ketamine, but all of those drugs were increasing.

00:13:40.799 --> 00:13:44.000
Those types of drugs don't always work on the autistic brain either.

00:13:44.159 --> 00:13:48.720
And that can make rather than sedating an autistic person, it can actually heighten.

00:13:49.200 --> 00:13:51.519
And that's exactly what was happening to Oliver.

00:13:51.679 --> 00:13:54.320
So much so he needs to be intubated in the end.

00:13:54.399 --> 00:13:56.639
Um and the seizures were not stopping either.

00:13:56.720 --> 00:14:00.320
Because, of course, the more anxious he became, the more he was having seizures.

00:14:00.559 --> 00:14:04.159
So it was just awful, really, really awful.

00:14:04.480 --> 00:14:13.519
Do you think it you know when when you talk about not talking to him directly or asking him his needs, was that his age, or was that because of his autism?

00:14:13.759 --> 00:14:17.440
Absolutely, because of his autism, because of his additional needs.

00:14:17.840 --> 00:14:22.480
He was not seen as a person, and he was not seen as relevant.

00:14:23.120 --> 00:14:29.200
And we were treated very much the same way as Oliver, which was well, it cost Oliver his life.

00:14:29.600 --> 00:14:30.399
It really did.

00:14:30.639 --> 00:14:37.519
And then, of course, you know, I look back and the neurologist treating Oliver in the AE department that night, he was really good.

00:14:37.600 --> 00:14:38.480
He was fantastic.

00:14:38.559 --> 00:14:42.799
He he was he was trying, but what he was doing was wrong.

00:14:43.039 --> 00:14:48.480
Later on, what happened to Oliver whilst he was intubated was well, it cost Oliver his life.

00:14:48.559 --> 00:15:00.559
And again, it came back to that situation of people not listening, absolutely people not listening, listening to even, you know, Oliver may have not been able to speak for himself, but we were able to advocate for Oliver.

00:15:01.039 --> 00:15:05.600
But again, that stigma, that bias, yeah, it was there the whole time.

00:15:05.679 --> 00:15:08.399
And that's where I hear from autistic people all the time.

00:15:08.559 --> 00:15:12.799
And people with ADHD, you know, they they they are treated so badly.

00:15:13.519 --> 00:15:17.360
No, I can I can definitely relate to that based on the work that we do.

00:15:17.519 --> 00:15:32.639
I think it's quite interesting work on people with uh substance misuse problems, especially their interactions with medical professionals, people who are genuinely in pain that can't get prescription pain relief because the doctor just assumes that they're trying to score more drugs basically to misuse.

00:15:33.120 --> 00:15:35.600
There is that stigma there that that comes with them as well.

00:15:35.679 --> 00:15:39.600
So that's something that I see very often and definitely something I can relate to.

00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:58.960
I guess the the part that I've picked up there is misinterpreting that distress, and I suppose in Oliver's case, distress and neurological symptoms were repeatedly misread as behavioural or psychiatric, leading to, again, as you said, inappropriate medication, which had devastating consequences.

00:15:59.279 --> 00:16:05.759
In drug and alcohol services, where prescribing uh detox and crisis response is our routine.

00:16:06.399 --> 00:16:17.919
What happens when distress linked to autism and learning disability is misinterpreted as substance use challenging behaviour or non-compliance?

00:16:18.399 --> 00:16:33.919
It's just totally unacceptable because the one person who asks for help and support, they're the one, they're the ones who are abused by the very people, in a way, so I will use that language abused, by the very people who are there to help the most.

00:16:34.159 --> 00:16:47.519
Now, again, we don't point fingers at people, at professionals, because we need to bring them on that journey of better understanding to enable them to better support our neurodivergent communities.

00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:56.240
But again, it comes back to that not understanding autistic behaviours, the meltdowns, the stimming, the communication, the withdrawal.

00:16:56.480 --> 00:16:59.039
And by that I don't mean withdrawal of um drugs.

00:16:59.120 --> 00:17:04.079
I mean the withdrawal where an autistic person or a neurodivergent person might be overwhelmed.

00:17:04.160 --> 00:17:05.759
They're in sensory crisis.

00:17:05.920 --> 00:17:12.559
And of course, when a person is in sensory crisis or sensory overload, their behavior becomes heightened.

00:17:13.039 --> 00:17:14.000
That's not behavior.

00:17:14.079 --> 00:17:15.440
I see that as communication.

00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:24.960
A person is actually trying to communicate a need, and a professional has a duty, they do have a duty to understand that need.

00:17:25.200 --> 00:17:28.720
And chemical and physical restraint is not the answer.

00:17:29.119 --> 00:17:37.119
But listening, talking, and understanding, you know, all of us training is all about ask, listen, do, and learning directly from the person.

00:17:37.759 --> 00:17:39.920
That's where we will get the answers.

00:17:40.079 --> 00:17:42.160
That's where we will be able to support better.

00:17:42.400 --> 00:17:47.119
And at the end of the day, that's why professionals are in this job at the very start.

00:17:47.279 --> 00:17:52.720
But you've we've got to learn to listen to our neurodivergent communities far, far better.

00:17:53.279 --> 00:17:58.480
I think this was something that I found really interesting within the training, thinking about our client base and who we work with.

00:17:58.640 --> 00:18:13.440
The amount of times that I've seen the people who are accessing our services labelled as chaotic, when my opinion, after doing that training, is how many of those are, in quotations, chaotic, and how many of them are feeling overstimulated by the environment?

00:18:13.519 --> 00:18:17.279
Our reception area specifically, it can be so overwhelming.

00:18:17.359 --> 00:18:22.480
I feel overwhelmed as a staff member in there, let alone someone in there who's trying to access service support.

00:18:22.880 --> 00:18:42.559
I just found that really interesting about the in in the way that we communicate with these people and and how how are we getting this so wrong in the terms of this blanket response to everybody having the same service as they come in when all those needs, as we said beforehand, we in our service in Hull Alone, there's over 3,000 people that are accessing that service.

00:18:42.880 --> 00:18:45.839
The differences in those, how many of them are undiagnosed as well?

00:18:45.920 --> 00:18:46.480
Do you know what I mean?

00:18:46.880 --> 00:18:47.680
Well, well, exactly.

00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:51.519
You know, and people are laid first of all, the labels because they've got an addiction.

00:18:51.680 --> 00:18:51.920
Yes.

00:18:52.079 --> 00:18:54.240
So we've got the bias going on there.

00:18:54.559 --> 00:19:06.799
Couple throw in that somebody is laid labelled as autistic, labelled as having ADHD, maybe OCD, but it's exactly what you've just said, that environment which is not adapted.

00:19:06.880 --> 00:19:08.079
It's reasonable adjustments.

00:19:08.160 --> 00:19:08.319
Yes.

00:19:08.480 --> 00:19:10.160
It's not adapted to meet the need.

00:19:10.319 --> 00:19:14.960
And people just need to step back and ask, listen, and do.

00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:15.839
It's not hard.

00:19:16.000 --> 00:19:17.039
It's really not hard.

00:19:17.359 --> 00:19:22.559
Is it so hard to ask a person when they come into that reception area, how are you feeling right now?

00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:24.960
What can I do to help you?

00:19:25.519 --> 00:19:30.000
What what things can we do to make things a bit easier for you to access our service?

00:19:30.880 --> 00:19:32.720
Is that really a hard thing to do?

00:19:32.960 --> 00:19:37.440
But instead, the fingers are the fingers are often pointed at them.

00:19:37.599 --> 00:19:40.559
They're labelled as, as you said, chaotic, difficult.

00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:42.000
They won't engage.

00:19:42.480 --> 00:19:55.119
When in actual fact it's the it's the professionals who are not engaging because they're not stepping into that person's life, into that person's head to see exactly what's going on and what we can do better.

00:19:55.839 --> 00:19:59.599
It's the one thing that I've always found interesting when people are, as an example.

00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:01.680
Kicking off in the reception area.

00:20:01.839 --> 00:20:19.759
And the example that I give when I'm delivering training around conflicts resolution, we'll say for lack of a better word, is if someone's coming in and they're upset that their methadone prescription isn't in the chemist, that's come from a place of it's almost like the brain's now just gone into overdrive and it's like, oh, my prescription wasn't at the chemist.

00:20:19.839 --> 00:20:21.519
That means I'm not going to get my methadone.

00:20:21.680 --> 00:20:23.279
That means I'm going to have to score drugs.

00:20:23.519 --> 00:20:26.480
They go to the service, you know, they explain that it's not there.

00:20:26.559 --> 00:20:27.680
And then they sat in the reception.

00:20:27.839 --> 00:20:33.759
Then whilst they sat there in the reception, they're thinking, I'm going to have to steal, I'm going to have to, you know, go on the rob, I'm going to have to borrow money.

00:20:33.839 --> 00:20:34.960
I can't afford to borrow money.

00:20:35.039 --> 00:20:36.720
I'm going to have to borrow drugs off someone.

00:20:36.799 --> 00:20:39.119
But then that person, and it's just on and on and on.

00:20:39.200 --> 00:20:46.480
And then you often find that once you you sort of find the situation as right, the prescriptions here, there's a reason why it won't send to the chemistry, you address that.

00:20:46.640 --> 00:20:50.079
There's almost like this deflation of relief.

00:20:50.559 --> 00:20:58.720
But the the hard part there is when they're just left to just sit in the reception whilst all this is going on their head, which naturally that's where they're going to get agitated.

00:20:58.799 --> 00:21:03.519
That's where the, again in quotations, the chaotic behaviour is going to come from.

00:21:03.839 --> 00:21:04.960
Well, they don't feel listened to.

00:21:05.119 --> 00:21:09.920
And this is why it was essential that receptionists do receive Oliver's training tier two.

00:21:10.559 --> 00:21:16.240
You know, they've got to, you know, people do need to understand that this is communication.

00:21:16.400 --> 00:21:20.400
This is actually a very frightened person that sat in that waiting room.

00:21:20.799 --> 00:21:23.200
The waiting room itself is unpredictable.

00:21:23.359 --> 00:21:24.160
It's unpredictable.

00:21:24.319 --> 00:21:29.359
The unpredictability to the neurodivergent brain is really, really hard to deal with anyway.

00:21:29.519 --> 00:21:32.160
Their anxiety is going to be through the roof.

00:21:32.559 --> 00:21:42.640
When if that had been addressed at the start of when that patient, that person walks into that room, things could be very, very different.

00:21:43.599 --> 00:21:47.759
I don't know the answers, but I'll tell you who does, I'll tell you who does know the answer.

00:21:48.319 --> 00:21:52.880
The person who is having a withdrawal from the, or you know, that's needing the methadone.

00:21:53.359 --> 00:21:58.559
Just when they're in a better place, ask them what could we as an organization have done better?

00:21:58.640 --> 00:22:02.880
What could we have done to help you best when you're in that situation?

00:22:03.119 --> 00:22:04.160
The answer is there.

00:22:04.799 --> 00:22:07.440
So previously, I mean I've I've worked in the service for 10 years.

00:22:07.519 --> 00:22:12.559
Previously, I've seen it's almost straight to punitive measures of that person's banned, they can't come here anymore.

00:22:12.720 --> 00:22:14.880
And it's like, oh, that's not the way to go about this situation.

00:22:15.359 --> 00:22:16.000
But it's not, is it?

00:22:16.160 --> 00:22:18.079
Because why is the service there in the first place?

00:22:18.240 --> 00:22:18.480
Exactly.

00:22:18.640 --> 00:22:26.079
If you're going to push people away that need it most, you know, people who are accessing that service, they all need it.

00:22:26.240 --> 00:22:34.079
But the neurodivergent person, the autistic person, the person with um ADHD and all the other diversities that need it most.

00:22:34.240 --> 00:22:37.279
And if we're pushing them away, where is that going to lead?

00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:44.160
Obviously, the mental health is going to increase the desperation that leads on to impatient care.

00:22:44.559 --> 00:22:52.000
You know, you think about the money that that will involve, that then leads into physical restraint, it leads on to chemical restraint.

00:22:52.559 --> 00:23:00.000
You know, the impact of what we do as professionals is significant to those communities.

00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:02.720
And it's all because we get it wrong.

00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:03.599
We get it wrong.

00:23:03.680 --> 00:23:06.400
And it that's our lack of communication and understanding.

00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:15.680
In in highly risk-averse services, do you know I think decisions can be driven by that managing organizational risk rather than individual safety.

00:23:15.839 --> 00:23:20.160
I suppose how did that defensive practice play out in Oliver's case?

00:23:20.480 --> 00:23:23.759
Well, obviously, it cost Oliver's life, didn't it?

00:23:25.519 --> 00:23:32.559
It's a difficult one to answer, really, because if I think about it, that defensiveness, we were just ignored.

00:23:32.720 --> 00:23:38.799
They didn't have to get too defensive because they were just, I can still see to this day two consultants.

00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:42.799
One was the neurologist, a neurologist, not the one I mentioned earlier on.

00:23:43.039 --> 00:23:46.240
And another one was the intensive care doctor.

00:23:46.559 --> 00:23:50.400
And we both pointed out Oliver's eyes were looking really puffy.

00:23:50.559 --> 00:23:52.240
He was looking blue around his eyes.

00:23:52.400 --> 00:23:54.000
And I can still see them to this day.

00:23:54.160 --> 00:23:58.160
They didn't even acknowledge that we'd spoken, that I can still see them.

00:23:58.240 --> 00:23:59.440
It was like a pair of curtains.

00:23:59.519 --> 00:24:01.119
They'd turn their backs on us.

00:24:01.359 --> 00:24:06.559
And at that point, if they'd have listened, we now know that's when Oliver's brain was swelling.

00:24:06.799 --> 00:24:14.640
And what your listeners might know is that Oliver's brain, as a risk, as a result of that drug that was given, it swelled so much it was bulging out the base of a skull.

00:24:15.039 --> 00:24:17.440
Now, that was obviously the temperature was rising.

00:24:17.519 --> 00:24:20.160
That obviously that was one of the things that were causing it.

00:24:20.319 --> 00:24:24.160
If they'd listened at that very point, that could have been prevented.

00:24:24.319 --> 00:24:27.279
Something could have been done, and Oliver's life could have been saved.

00:24:27.519 --> 00:24:30.480
So again, it was this arrogance, isn't it?

00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:30.640
Really?

00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:34.480
Yeah, I think the part that I found, well, the entire story is heartbreaking.

00:24:34.559 --> 00:24:39.839
But you talk in the in the training about how his eyes were were rolled into the back of his head for almost half an hour.

00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:43.519
And it was almost like they they thought he was making it up.

00:24:43.839 --> 00:24:46.319
Oh, do you know that that was back in the children's hospital?

00:24:46.880 --> 00:24:48.319
Well that was awful.

00:24:48.640 --> 00:24:55.279
When I you know it that's called oculogy crisis, and we didn't know what it was, and neither did poor Oliver, you know, he kept apologizing.

00:24:55.440 --> 00:24:56.240
It was horrible.

00:24:56.400 --> 00:24:59.359
And hopefully, in this podcast, you can show that photograph.

00:24:59.440 --> 00:25:01.599
Um, it's quite a traumatic photograph.

00:25:01.839 --> 00:25:08.640
So he'd been given a drug, which I won't mention the names of these medications, and it was an antipsychotic drug.

00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:10.640
And they'd obviously given him too much.

00:25:10.799 --> 00:25:15.519
He didn't need it, he was just a kid, and he he was he was actually in the hospital and he was bouncing his ball.

00:25:15.599 --> 00:25:16.400
He was he was massive.

00:25:16.480 --> 00:25:31.039
Um you played for England development squads, and they'd given him this medication, and it's called ocular gyro crisis, and it's a dystonic reaction, and it's very painful, and your face becomes frozen, and your eyes, like I said, have rolled up at the back of your head.

00:25:31.200 --> 00:25:32.240
It's horrible.

00:25:32.799 --> 00:25:36.960
And you need a medication that can counteract that reaction.

00:25:37.200 --> 00:25:45.759
But I heard the neurologist, she was there, and she said, She'd never met Oliver before, he's making her up, it's behavioural, you know, like um in Oliver's story.

00:25:45.920 --> 00:25:52.160
Do you know he was a good two shoes, he'd never had his attention, he was known for his manners, he was just everybody's friend.

00:25:52.319 --> 00:25:56.400
So it was really, it was awful to hear him being labelled in that way.

00:25:56.799 --> 00:26:01.119
And it was only, like I said, after six hours when she realised, six hours they left him.

00:26:01.279 --> 00:26:01.680
Six hours.

00:26:01.759 --> 00:26:02.079
Oh wow.

00:26:02.319 --> 00:26:06.640
Six hours when she realized he'd not changed from that position of that frozen face.

00:26:06.880 --> 00:26:08.960
Precyclogine was the medication.

00:26:09.039 --> 00:26:10.880
And you know, it took 15 seconds.

00:26:11.200 --> 00:26:14.079
That's that was quite and that is discrimination.

00:26:14.319 --> 00:26:16.319
He would not have been treated in that way.

00:26:16.480 --> 00:26:33.359
And you know, I I do an awful lot of presentations, and um, I often say, you know, if Oliver had not had a label attached to him, him being autistic and having he had a mild learner disability, if I'd have gone into that hospital, I definitely would not have been left for 20 minutes like that.

00:26:33.759 --> 00:26:34.880
Nobody else would have done.

00:26:35.039 --> 00:26:48.319
But because he had labels attached to him, this is why this happened to Oliver, and this is happening actually to a lot of um autistic people who are sectioned, who are hospitalized in uh hospitals, care homes across the country.

00:26:48.559 --> 00:26:51.839
And that that is a reality, um, and that's wrong.

00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:52.640
That is wrong.

00:26:52.799 --> 00:26:55.039
Again, that's um stigma, isn't it?

00:26:55.119 --> 00:26:56.000
And it's bias.

00:26:57.279 --> 00:27:12.640
I I guess going back to the labels that we talked about, like chaotic, Oliver was described by the professionals as as challenging, or that it was behaviour at points where his needs were not being understood or met.

00:27:12.880 --> 00:27:16.799
In addiction services, people are often again labelled as chaotic or difficult.

00:27:17.039 --> 00:27:28.640
I guess how does Oliver's training help practitioners pause, question those labels, begin to understand what really might be going on for that individual?

00:27:28.960 --> 00:27:37.920
Well, Oliver's training first and foremost has been designed by autistic people and people with a learning disability.

00:27:38.160 --> 00:27:40.559
So it's all about learning directly from them.

00:27:40.799 --> 00:27:43.759
And you know, that's what it's all about.

00:27:43.839 --> 00:27:52.960
It's about asking, listening, doing, it's about understanding the laws, it's understanding communication needs, it's understanding reasonable adjustments.

00:27:53.279 --> 00:28:03.119
And it's for our practitioners, you know, the value behind that is that our practitioners will learn to understand directly from our neurodivergent communities.

00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:04.319
That is essential.

00:28:04.480 --> 00:28:12.960
You know, I often say it's a bit crude, you know, there's nothing worse when a man doesn't understand a woman's private needs, vice versa.

00:28:13.200 --> 00:28:19.680
So why would we want to learn something if it's not coming directly from that person?

00:28:20.240 --> 00:28:21.519
It doesn't make sense to me.

00:28:21.599 --> 00:28:32.640
We have to, you know, we we've we've got to step away from the the medical side of things and learn, you know, separate it and look at the social and learn directly from these communities.

00:28:32.799 --> 00:28:34.079
That's what it's all about.

00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:35.680
We need to stop labeling.

00:28:36.400 --> 00:28:41.759
By that I mean behavior, challenging behavior, chaotic nuisance.

00:28:42.559 --> 00:28:44.079
There's there's a there's a lot worse than that.

00:28:44.240 --> 00:28:47.759
There's all the I've we hear them all the time in in services as well.

00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:52.079
I think we need to humanize our neurodivergent communities.

00:28:52.240 --> 00:28:55.039
We have we need to start to see them as people and as equals.

00:28:55.279 --> 00:29:00.240
You know, I often think actually, is neurodivergent becoming are we more neurotypical?

00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:05.039
You know, I think there's there's a lot more people that are autistic than we realise.

00:29:05.440 --> 00:29:07.359
And as you said, undiagnosed.

00:29:08.240 --> 00:29:14.079
I think it's time to just stop and think and consider and be curious and ask questions.

00:29:14.400 --> 00:29:18.319
One one of the things I I loved about the trainer, it was a co-produced piece.

00:29:18.559 --> 00:29:27.039
It was it's it's a relatively small thing, but those that were talking was was labelled as experts by lived experience.

00:29:27.200 --> 00:29:28.400
And I loved that.

00:29:28.640 --> 00:29:38.480
I've I and we in in addiction services like ours, I've I've often used the words like um, you know, just those with lived experience or recovery champions or peer mentors.

00:29:38.720 --> 00:29:48.079
But when I saw experts by lived experience, I was like, that's incredible because you just said nobody understands that more than that person who is living it.

00:29:48.400 --> 00:30:05.519
Of course, you know, I th I think it's um I think it's awful that you know the the literature out there about autism, how it's diagnosed, and so on and so on, that's been derived from non-autistic people, people who don't have ADHD.

00:30:06.559 --> 00:30:14.079
People write, and we all learn from people who are not always autistic themselves, who don't have that need.

00:30:14.400 --> 00:30:16.559
And I I just actually can't get my head around that.

00:30:16.640 --> 00:30:17.599
I think that's awful.

00:30:18.079 --> 00:30:18.720
It really is.

00:30:18.880 --> 00:30:21.440
You know, I'm not being funny, I don't know anything about you.

00:30:21.599 --> 00:30:22.720
First time I've met you.

00:30:23.039 --> 00:30:27.200
Can you imagine me writing up writing up a paper all about you?

00:30:27.359 --> 00:30:28.240
But I don't know you.

00:30:28.480 --> 00:30:29.759
See, there's a little sad note.

00:30:29.920 --> 00:30:32.480
So I'm bald now, but I used to have bright ginger hair.

00:30:32.559 --> 00:30:35.599
And I I was quite happy to be known as the ginger head kid.

00:30:35.759 --> 00:30:39.920
And it was funny when someone said, Oh, you're not allowed to say ginger now, you have to say strawberry blonde.

00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:50.079
I was like, no, I'm ginger, I prefer ginger, but it's often that is the case, and it's people speaking on behalf of other people for other people, and you just can't get your head around that.

00:30:50.160 --> 00:30:55.119
But the experts by lived experience, I was like, that really just really brings that together.

00:30:55.359 --> 00:30:57.200
It's important, it's really important.

00:30:57.359 --> 00:31:03.440
We need to hear how best to help and support these communities by hearing directly from them.

00:31:03.680 --> 00:31:07.440
Again, comes back to ask, listen, do, and respect, humanize.

00:31:07.759 --> 00:31:21.279
Reasonable adjustments is is an interesting one for me because I think services often say they make reasonable adjustments, but sometimes I still feel like those adjustments still expect autistic people to fit existing systems.

00:31:21.599 --> 00:31:28.240
What does a genuinely reasonable adjustment look like in a moment of distress for somebody?

00:31:29.519 --> 00:31:35.359
I think if the distress are are you first of all, are you able to ask how best can I help?

00:31:36.240 --> 00:31:43.039
Anyone that's in distress, I I I feel the more you talk at a person, the worse it gets.

00:31:43.119 --> 00:31:44.799
You're going to heighten that anxiety.

00:31:45.119 --> 00:31:45.920
Step away.

00:31:46.720 --> 00:31:48.559
If necessary, dim the lights.

00:31:48.640 --> 00:32:00.400
We can all dim the lights, but don't talk at the person, move things away, just step away, give them space and time, and and just let that person calm.

00:32:00.559 --> 00:32:00.799
Yeah.

00:32:01.039 --> 00:32:03.039
And that's what I would do.

00:32:03.599 --> 00:32:06.480
But hopefully, people would have a health passport.

00:32:07.200 --> 00:32:08.480
They they are invaluable.

00:32:08.559 --> 00:32:19.200
They give information on when a person is in a karma space with, where you know, it will mention their health needs and how best to help them generally and also in times of crisis, they are invaluable.

00:32:19.759 --> 00:32:27.279
But a reasonable adjustment is only reasonable and what and what is available at that time.

00:32:27.440 --> 00:32:33.359
So, you know, if you go into, especially if you go into our AE departments right now, there isn't always a quiet room.

00:32:33.680 --> 00:32:36.400
There just isn't, and and you can't always demand that.

00:32:36.480 --> 00:32:42.079
But what is available is how we communicate empathy, time, space.

00:32:42.720 --> 00:32:47.440
You can't always dim that light, you know, and it's getting down onto that person's level.

00:32:48.000 --> 00:32:53.119
It's what you can do, and it can always be the most basic of things, things that you haven't even thought of.

00:32:54.000 --> 00:33:00.880
But if you can, or actually, what you should always do every single time is ask the person, their carers and families.

00:33:01.279 --> 00:33:03.599
Anyone that's there to advocate for that person.

00:33:04.640 --> 00:33:05.519
Thank you.

00:33:05.920 --> 00:33:09.039
Listening is is obviously you know hugely important.

00:33:09.119 --> 00:33:16.400
And for all of us care, you and your you know, family raised repeated concerns, provided clear evidence, and we're not listened to.

00:33:16.640 --> 00:33:21.279
Going back to us and substance misuse services, where risk can escalate quickly.

00:33:21.599 --> 00:33:31.920
How important is it that practitioners genuinely listen to family and carers when accessing safety, medication, and those discharge decisions as well?

00:33:32.160 --> 00:33:33.279
Well, it's essential, isn't it?

00:33:33.519 --> 00:33:43.680
Because it can save a life and it can take a life if the person the person themselves, their families and carers are not listened to.

00:33:44.160 --> 00:33:46.799
You know, that is the ultimate thing at the end of the day.

00:33:46.960 --> 00:33:52.960
If we're not listening, and you know, we've got to think about what is listening, because it's got to be effective listening.

00:33:53.119 --> 00:33:55.839
There's no point listening if you're not going to do anything about it.

00:33:56.079 --> 00:34:01.680
There's no point providing information or asking a person, what can I do to help you?

00:34:01.920 --> 00:34:06.000
Because more often than not, people don't know what's available to them.

00:34:06.079 --> 00:34:10.000
So make sure that you always know what you can do best to help and serve.

00:34:10.800 --> 00:34:22.960
But I just think this basic dehumanization, this lack of communication skills, this lack of, lack of, lack of education has such an impact on the person, the very person that you're trying to help.

00:34:23.280 --> 00:34:27.119
But instead, we we do get it wrong and we do stigmatize.

00:34:27.519 --> 00:34:31.360
And that arrogance and that ignorance is costing lives.

00:34:31.519 --> 00:34:46.559
And when I say costing lives, that can actually be not necessarily death, but it's the quality of life that we're taking away and the impact and you know what results from the lack of us and how that results in that person going forward.

00:34:46.719 --> 00:34:50.559
You know, homelessness, like I said, institutionalization.

00:34:51.679 --> 00:34:53.840
Both very prevalent things in in the work that we do as well.

00:34:54.159 --> 00:34:54.800
Well, that's what I'm saying.

00:34:54.960 --> 00:34:56.639
That's what I'm referring to, actually.

00:34:57.039 --> 00:35:09.599
You know, but professionals, if if they don't understand the neurodivergent brain, they can't get to the root cause of why a person has reached for substance abuse.

00:35:10.159 --> 00:35:14.960
You know, if you don't understand why that person has done it in the first place, how can you help them best?

00:35:15.119 --> 00:35:32.559
If you don't understand stimming, sensory overload, sensory crisis, if you don't understand why an autistic person seeks to be included, how difficult that is for them, how can you help them best if you don't even understand the basics or you haven't even thought to ask the person?

00:35:32.800 --> 00:35:42.079
You know, because there's so much going on before we even get to the drug abuse or the um alcohol abuse or wherever, you've got to understand the root cause first.

00:35:42.880 --> 00:35:49.119
There's practitioners up and on the country that will be listening to this as part of their learning and development.

00:35:49.199 --> 00:35:53.519
If you could say one thing directly to them, what would that be?

00:35:53.920 --> 00:35:54.800
See the person.

00:35:55.440 --> 00:36:01.519
See the person, think, ask, listen, and do every single time.

00:36:01.760 --> 00:36:03.760
Ask what you can do to help best.

00:36:04.079 --> 00:36:14.320
But please always remember, and I would say this directly, and I'll look right in the camera, it's not about blaming, it's about all of us working collaboratively, working together to get it right.

00:36:14.800 --> 00:36:19.760
Because we've got to get it right, and we've got to stop thinking about backfill and costs.

00:36:19.920 --> 00:36:29.360
You know, money is important, of course it's important, but actually saving lives and giving a better quality of lives, life to people is far, far greater.

00:36:29.760 --> 00:36:30.480
Far greater.

00:36:30.800 --> 00:36:41.039
For for you specifically, I believe you were often placed in this position of having to explain Oliver to professionals with with again, it goes back to that more formal authority.

00:36:41.519 --> 00:36:45.679
What does that emotional labour do to families over time?

00:36:46.000 --> 00:36:46.800
That's hard.

00:36:46.880 --> 00:36:47.119
Yeah.

00:36:47.360 --> 00:36:51.679
I think that's a there's a lot of things I've learned since Oliver died.

00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:53.599
I wasn't perfect either.

00:36:54.079 --> 00:37:00.079
You know, I would often talk about Oliver to professionals rather than allowing Oliver to speak for himself.

00:37:00.719 --> 00:37:02.239
And I would do that over and over.

00:37:02.400 --> 00:37:11.119
Actually, doing these presentations, um, which I do a lot, conferences, NHS trusts, social care trusts, obviously, I'm talking about Oliver now.

00:37:11.280 --> 00:37:16.320
When I talk about what happened over and over, I'm I'm able to compartmentalize.

00:37:16.559 --> 00:37:21.440
But actually, it's I I thought it probably is very hard when you think about it.

00:37:21.599 --> 00:37:34.639
But families, for me, I think every single time if the if if an autistic person, ADHD, a neurodivergent person, we've got to enable them to be able to speak for themselves.

00:37:34.880 --> 00:37:40.159
You know, obviously there will be people who are who aren't able to speak for themselves, who are more profoundly disabled.

00:37:40.239 --> 00:37:41.679
That's a different situation.

00:37:42.000 --> 00:37:52.320
But where possible, and that it would be quite a lot of the time, we've got to enable those communities, their voices have got to be heard in one way or another.

00:37:52.480 --> 00:38:01.039
You know, um, we have people who are, as I've just said, unable to talk, but there's other ways of communication, and we've got to learn how best to help them.

00:38:01.199 --> 00:38:03.519
There's lots of different ways to communicate.

00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:06.639
Thank you.

00:38:06.800 --> 00:38:17.840
I I think most of the professionals involved in Oliver's care may believe that they were acting in his best interest, yet the system obviously failed him.

00:38:18.079 --> 00:38:24.000
In drug and alcohol services like ours, staff often see themselves as compassionate and well-intentioned.

00:38:24.239 --> 00:38:30.800
Why isn't empathy alone enough to keep people with learning disabilities or autism safe?

00:38:31.199 --> 00:38:34.400
Well, empathy is just one part of it.

00:38:34.719 --> 00:38:37.280
Empathy alone is not going to keep somebody safe, is it?

00:38:37.440 --> 00:38:44.800
Because we're not addressing the the core reason as to why our communities need to reach for substance abuse.

00:38:45.119 --> 00:38:49.679
So it's not just about empathy, it's about humanization of people seeing the person.

00:38:49.840 --> 00:38:51.840
It's about giving the right support.

00:38:52.320 --> 00:38:54.239
Empathy should be there all the time.

00:38:55.280 --> 00:38:57.360
We shouldn't even have to mention that, should we, really?

00:38:57.679 --> 00:38:59.199
It should be the default, the natural.

00:38:59.440 --> 00:39:14.079
But I think I think our professionals, we need to step back and say, look, if this person is continuing to have substance abuse, if they're continuing on the path that they're on, we have to question what we are doing as professionals?

00:39:14.239 --> 00:39:15.679
Where are we failing this person?

00:39:15.840 --> 00:39:18.800
And I think it's self-reflection is essential.

00:39:19.280 --> 00:39:25.440
And if we can't do that, then actually I would question: should you be in that profession?

00:39:25.840 --> 00:39:29.920
If you can't see a person as a human being, should you be in that profession?

00:39:30.079 --> 00:39:38.239
If you can't question and be curious about how a person thinks and behaves differently, then you should not be in that profession.

00:39:38.559 --> 00:39:44.960
We've, you know, like I said, you've got to open that mind and you've got to be thinking differently in order to help that person best.

00:39:45.599 --> 00:39:46.480
Absolutely, yeah.

00:39:46.719 --> 00:39:58.320
Long before the the worst outcome, what harm is done when people aren't believed to trust engagement and even that willingness to seek help?

00:39:58.719 --> 00:39:59.760
Well, they've they'll turn away.

00:40:00.239 --> 00:40:00.559
Won't they?

00:40:00.800 --> 00:40:08.320
And of course, whatever crisis or abuse that they've turned to is going to worsen, isn't it?

00:40:08.559 --> 00:40:13.199
And ultimately the quality of life is greatly affected, without a doubt.

00:40:13.360 --> 00:40:15.440
And then ultimately it costs lives.

00:40:15.519 --> 00:40:20.000
But it's not just that person, of course, because of it's far reaching, isn't it?

00:40:20.239 --> 00:40:21.519
The family are impacted.

00:40:21.840 --> 00:40:26.719
Um, carers, the family dynamics are just absolutely destroyed, aren't they?

00:40:26.800 --> 00:40:42.400
Sometimes when, as you as you know from your profession, where drug abuse or alcohol abuse or even gambling, where that comes into play, which can be, I'm hearing, can be quite profalent amongst the neurodivergent communities.

00:40:42.800 --> 00:40:44.960
You know, isn't it awful?

00:40:45.039 --> 00:40:49.920
Isn't it terrible that people are desperately trying to live a happy life?

00:40:50.079 --> 00:41:05.199
And that happy life doesn't exist because society constantly puts pressures on our communities and they're trying to perform and conform, conform, sorry, to what they perceive as normal.

00:41:05.840 --> 00:41:11.199
And that is just that is the impact of not getting the right support at the time of need.

00:41:11.760 --> 00:41:19.360
I think it's interesting you say that as well, because one of the sayings that I heard very early on in in my career in substance misuse services was nobody goes into addiction alone.

00:41:19.519 --> 00:41:26.320
And I used to think, well, of course they do, you know, if they're doing that harm to themselves, but you quickly realise, no, it's the impact that that has on the families.

00:41:26.480 --> 00:41:34.800
You know, if someone's there with a heroin dependency, the the impact that has on their partner, their mother, the father, their children, it's so widespread.

00:41:34.960 --> 00:41:36.559
It isn't just down to the individual.

00:41:36.639 --> 00:41:44.159
So it with that in mind, I guess if if people aren't believed, you know, when they do have the problems that they're having, as you said, they just turn away.

00:41:44.400 --> 00:41:46.079
And that will only get worse and worse and worse.

00:41:46.320 --> 00:41:47.519
So can I ask you a question?

00:41:48.239 --> 00:41:53.679
How many neurodivergent people do you think access your service?

00:41:54.079 --> 00:42:05.199
I do know from the top of my head, I I I couldn't even tell you because I don't think it's something that we even ask at the point of assessment if they even believe they may have neurodivergent, neurodivergency.

00:42:05.440 --> 00:42:07.440
Why don't you ask that question, if you don't mind me asking?

00:42:07.760 --> 00:42:08.480
No, well, there you are.

00:42:08.559 --> 00:42:25.280
If if we if we could, I think that's the one thing I'd like to see based on the based on the training, and based on Oliver's training, it it's it's not just about how we interact with with people in terms of them attending and coming into the reception area or if they're presenting again in quotations chaotically.

00:42:25.440 --> 00:42:29.119
It needs to go deeper into to every single point of the system.

00:42:29.280 --> 00:42:33.679
And we should be referring to people to try and get that specialist support if they do believe it as well.

00:42:33.760 --> 00:42:43.039
Because I think the the one thing that's interesting around us talking more about neurodivergence, I think more people are starting to possibly recognise those neurodivergence traits in themselves.

00:42:43.119 --> 00:42:48.159
So at that point of assessment, they might actually be willing to say, actually, now you've asked me.

00:42:48.239 --> 00:42:52.239
I've never been asked that question before, but now you've asked me, possibly.

00:42:52.400 --> 00:42:54.960
And then how do we follow up with that in the way that we support people?

00:42:55.360 --> 00:42:57.679
That comes back to the start of our conversation.

00:42:57.920 --> 00:43:02.239
The reason I would say that you probably don't ask is fear.

00:43:02.719 --> 00:43:07.119
You don't you feel that you might upset the person, you don't want to cross that line.

00:43:08.079 --> 00:43:15.119
I have a suspicion that that might be the case, and it comes all always comes straight back to ask, listen, do, doesn't it?

00:43:15.360 --> 00:43:21.360
It's funny you should say that because I remember being on like this this panel thing, and there was doing something around uh ADHD.

00:43:21.440 --> 00:43:25.039
And I said, Oh Matt, we we've put put you forward for it because you're neurodivergent.

00:43:25.519 --> 00:43:26.559
And I went, Am I?

00:43:27.519 --> 00:43:29.039
I did wonder if I'm honest.

00:43:29.679 --> 00:43:32.400
There's like, I could have I could have sworn you was ADHD.

00:43:32.480 --> 00:43:34.480
I was like, I and I've I've never looked into it.

00:43:34.559 --> 00:43:42.719
I know there are things that I probably do that are quite in line with with ADHD, but yeah, I've I've never gone and sought help for it or anything, do you know?

00:43:42.800 --> 00:43:47.760
But I think I see that in I I sometimes I feel like it has a bit of a strain on my relationship.

00:43:47.840 --> 00:43:59.360
My wife's quite a tardy person, and she'll get quite frustrated when I've just started one job and then I went downstairs to the tool cupboard to get another one, and now I've just reorganized my entire tool cupboard and the job I started upstairs still hasn't been done.

00:43:59.599 --> 00:44:05.360
The way I jump from things from topic to topic, I start another story when I'm halfway through one story.

00:44:05.440 --> 00:44:07.039
There's all these little things that I do.

00:44:07.280 --> 00:44:15.920
And I I think maybe the reason why I if if the if it is there, why I haven't sought help is because I've never felt like it's had too much of a negative impact on my life.

00:44:16.079 --> 00:44:20.239
But it was interesting when I did get asked, are you neurodivergent?

00:44:20.320 --> 00:44:22.559
I was a little bit like, I don't know.

00:44:22.800 --> 00:44:23.280
Am I?

00:44:23.760 --> 00:44:25.519
Honestly, I'm asked the same question.

00:44:25.920 --> 00:44:39.119
And I I've I have a few suspicions about myself, but I don't feel the need either to get the diagnosis because I'm supported within my, you know, I I can see in myself I divert from one thing to the next.

00:44:39.519 --> 00:44:42.480
I'm having your question, you're asking me questions.

00:44:42.639 --> 00:44:45.119
My brain is also it's jumped elsewhere already.

00:44:45.199 --> 00:44:46.960
Yeah, is that ADHD?

00:44:47.039 --> 00:44:50.079
I I don't know, but I am aware that I do it all the time.

00:44:50.239 --> 00:44:55.199
I can't watch a film without predicting the end, and I do predict it correctly every single time.

00:44:55.599 --> 00:44:57.519
My husband refuses to watch a film with me.

00:44:57.760 --> 00:44:59.199
Yeah, I'm the exact same.

00:44:59.360 --> 00:44:59.519
Yeah.

00:45:00.639 --> 00:45:02.159
Because my wife will be asking what happens next.

00:45:02.320 --> 00:45:04.000
I was like, we've never seen this before.

00:45:04.239 --> 00:45:08.480
But she's she asked me because nine times out of ten I can normally suss out what's happening before it happens.

00:45:08.880 --> 00:45:09.760
I can do it really quickly.

00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:17.679
Um do you know if if if I am, if I have ADHD or if I am possibly autistic, something I would embrace.

00:45:18.000 --> 00:45:20.880
But then that's because I'm very fortunate to have.

00:45:21.039 --> 00:45:21.840
I mean, I don't know.

00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:22.480
I don't know.

00:45:22.559 --> 00:45:37.039
I'm just saying I I have a really good family around me, and it's not impacted me to the point of the people that access your service or the people, people who've been stigmatized, who's been who have been treated absolutely awfully.

00:45:37.280 --> 00:45:39.679
You know, and yeah, that that type of thing.

00:45:39.920 --> 00:45:44.079
I mean, where we're we're smiling up, we were laughing about it, but we're okay.

00:45:44.320 --> 00:45:55.599
Yeah, I think one of the things, and this is it it shouldn't be the case, but I think maybe one of the reasons why I haven't as well is because I sometimes see it's almost like negative comments where oh, everyone has ADHD or autism nowadays.

00:45:55.679 --> 00:46:00.000
And it's like, well, I don't I don't want to be that person who's just saying I have it for the sake of following it.

00:46:00.079 --> 00:46:00.320
Do you know?

00:46:00.400 --> 00:46:04.719
I'd rather just kind of keep it looking about change things now.

00:46:04.960 --> 00:46:06.480
I usually say, Do they?

00:46:07.199 --> 00:46:08.239
What makes you think that?

00:46:08.400 --> 00:46:08.960
Yeah.

00:46:09.199 --> 00:46:10.400
And put it back on them.

00:46:10.480 --> 00:46:10.639
Yeah.

00:46:10.800 --> 00:46:12.800
And again, it highlights their ignorance.

00:46:13.119 --> 00:46:16.320
And actually, do you know, people don't always mean to be ignorant?

00:46:16.960 --> 00:46:24.159
People want to be educated a bit more, and people read things on social media, and of course, we know social media is not always correct, is it?

00:46:24.480 --> 00:46:26.800
It's presented as factual, that's the problem, though, isn't it?

00:46:26.880 --> 00:46:27.360
Sometimes, yeah.

00:46:27.519 --> 00:46:28.320
Yeah, I know, I know.

00:46:28.480 --> 00:46:31.119
But it's again, we come back to education.

00:46:31.280 --> 00:46:36.960
But I was going to say to you, what does the medical model look like for your service?

00:46:37.119 --> 00:46:42.960
You know, when when when you've got people coming into your service and they need help, support and treatment.

00:46:43.519 --> 00:46:44.400
Is it set?

00:46:44.719 --> 00:46:46.159
And is it the same for everyone?

00:46:46.480 --> 00:46:48.159
It it feels it feels set.

00:46:48.239 --> 00:46:55.119
I think that's that's part of the problem with with a service like ours, is it's often uh you often hear the word the the pathways.

00:46:55.280 --> 00:46:56.880
The pathways, the pathways, the pathways.

00:46:57.280 --> 00:46:58.159
What's the pathway for?

00:46:58.320 --> 00:46:59.360
Well, that's that's the thing.

00:46:59.440 --> 00:47:07.440
It feels like it's almost here's our model, here's what what we we give, and we're commissioned to deliver that model.

00:47:07.519 --> 00:47:22.800
So in this sense, it's medically assisted treatment, which is a a method on programme, which is obviously there to help with the withdrawal symptoms, and and as the as they're prescribed, we we address the underlining or the other issues that could be there surrounding it.

00:47:22.960 --> 00:47:29.679
But it feels like it's this is the model, and you kind of have to to fit to it, and it's quite hard to deviate away from.

00:47:30.000 --> 00:47:32.320
A bit like a jigsaw puzzle, and everybody has to fit in.

00:47:32.559 --> 00:47:32.960
That's it.

00:47:33.280 --> 00:47:37.679
So again, I'm gonna ask for a little bit of d data that you might not know.

00:47:37.920 --> 00:47:41.360
What's the success rate of this fixed medical model?

00:47:41.760 --> 00:47:43.199
Wouldn't be able to tell you off the top of my head.

00:47:43.519 --> 00:47:44.000
Ish.

00:47:44.639 --> 00:47:48.480
I I wouldn't even be able to give a ballpark figure because I think that do you know what I will say?

00:47:48.639 --> 00:48:10.079
There's an there's an interesting fact for me that when I when I look at the outcomes between substance misuse problems directed to opiates, for instance, and those that are struggling with alcohol, the alcohol pathway, again, the use of the word pathways, that seems to have a point of entry and a point of exit, and and that seems to flow quite nicely with people coming in the start and then leaving at the end.

00:48:10.320 --> 00:48:14.320
The and I can almost pinpoint that as a as a straight line.

00:48:14.559 --> 00:48:28.320
The interesting one about the one for opius, the medically assisted treatment model, is you're coming at map one, you have the assessment, we basically get you onto what we'd call maybe like an optimum dose of methadontas to stop the withdrawal symptoms.

00:48:28.559 --> 00:48:40.719
And then we can either go to medically assistant treatment stage two, where we will address any surrounding issues, or if they're quite stable, it might go to a map three, whereas there's the reduction, map four, which is the detox.

00:48:40.960 --> 00:48:44.559
I'm not a frontline recovery practitioner, so bear with me on that one.

00:48:44.719 --> 00:48:51.760
But it's kind of like it it's it's across, it's up, it's down, it's backwards a bit, it's forwards again.

00:48:51.920 --> 00:49:01.360
And it's kind of almost like if you do rather than this straight line, which seems to work with the alcohol pathway, it goes in like spirals and it's back and forth and back and forth.

00:49:01.440 --> 00:49:05.440
And it just it obviously it it there is a success rate there.

00:49:05.599 --> 00:49:12.880
But I think when I when I look at people as individuals, I can see why people are struggling with it and why it's not working for certain people.

00:49:12.960 --> 00:49:21.119
And you may develop a really good rapport with your key worker in mat two, and you've addressed your stability, but now we're going to do a reduction, so you move on to a mat three keyworker.

00:49:21.199 --> 00:49:24.159
But hang on, I built up a really good relationship with my mat two worker.

00:49:24.320 --> 00:49:25.840
Now I have to go meet somebody else.

00:49:26.000 --> 00:49:28.639
And I understand how that can be so difficult for people as well.

00:49:28.880 --> 00:49:35.519
Well, I would question the biggest failings, the the commute the group that fails the most on that treatment pathway.

00:49:35.840 --> 00:49:41.280
Would that possibly be our diagnosed and undiagnosed neurodivergent people?

00:49:41.599 --> 00:49:48.800
And that comes second-handed where I will also say, is that because the plan is not diff differentiated to meet their needs?

00:49:49.360 --> 00:49:50.800
So it's a two-part question.

00:49:51.280 --> 00:49:57.760
It's interesting because I'm actually part of the I've I've just joined a like a medically assistant treatment working group basically.

00:49:58.000 --> 00:50:04.480
And I'm there representing sort of especially the the lived experience voice managing those lived experience working with volunteers.

00:50:04.559 --> 00:50:06.559
I deal with a lot of the service user feedback.

00:50:06.719 --> 00:50:10.320
And it's interesting that neurodivergence hasn't really come up in that working group yet.

00:50:10.480 --> 00:50:12.800
And I do think that's definitely the thing that we're going to be taking from.

00:50:13.119 --> 00:50:13.760
Nobody's curious.

00:50:13.840 --> 00:50:14.400
Nobody's asking.

00:50:14.719 --> 00:50:14.960
That's it.

00:50:15.199 --> 00:50:16.719
So again, we we come back to that.

00:50:16.800 --> 00:50:18.079
Why are people not asking that?

00:50:18.159 --> 00:50:21.599
Are we are we afraid or ashamed to ask that question?

00:50:22.400 --> 00:50:24.559
And I have to say, then we must be.

00:50:25.039 --> 00:50:26.079
Because why aren't we?

00:50:26.320 --> 00:50:31.840
Because our neurodivergent communities need those adaptations, they need those reasonable adjustments.

00:50:32.000 --> 00:50:34.639
You know, they're not cushions that have just come in and sat down.

00:50:35.280 --> 00:50:39.519
They actually need specialized and differentiated help and support.

00:50:39.679 --> 00:50:42.320
And that's where our practitioners can do so much more.

00:50:42.480 --> 00:50:45.840
You know, it's not just about Oliver's training, it's about so much more.

00:50:45.920 --> 00:50:49.119
And again, it's about being curious, it's about asking those questions.

00:50:49.360 --> 00:50:58.239
Again, it's about working collaboratively with these communities and asking those questions and really, really effectively listening.

00:50:58.400 --> 00:51:01.119
Not just listening, tokenism, tick boxes.

00:51:01.280 --> 00:51:04.480
It's about, you know, remember why you're doing this job.

00:51:04.719 --> 00:51:08.239
Why have you gone into this, this, this side of your profession?

00:51:08.559 --> 00:51:13.280
And that without a doubt is to help and support these groups of people.

00:51:13.440 --> 00:51:17.360
You know, we can't keep them on a pathway that's not working for them.

00:51:17.760 --> 00:51:19.519
We've got to look at that and address it.

00:51:19.599 --> 00:51:24.960
And I understand, you know, the pressures from you know, from all angles, really.

00:51:25.039 --> 00:51:33.440
And of course, you know, the funding, but that passageway that you've just talked about is for the neurotypical person.

00:51:34.320 --> 00:51:39.679
But we as a society have a lot of different people, and it does not work for everybody.

00:51:39.840 --> 00:51:46.559
And my assumptions and my my guess is that your neurodivergent communities are failing.

00:51:46.960 --> 00:51:49.119
And it's because they are being failed.

00:51:49.280 --> 00:51:50.800
And it's what can we do better?

00:51:51.280 --> 00:51:59.360
And what I'm taking away from our conversation today is that we are not curious, we're not asking the questions, we're almost embarrassed to ask those questions.

00:51:59.519 --> 00:52:01.599
And I would say from our clinicians as well, yeah.

00:52:01.840 --> 00:52:12.239
You know, it's not it's not a dirty secret that somebody might be autistic, somebody might be, I don't know, ADHD, have ADHD, sorry, maybe OCD, lots of those things.

00:52:12.480 --> 00:52:15.440
Why, why, why are we making it sound dirty?

00:52:15.760 --> 00:52:22.320
When in actual fact they are a huge part of our community and they are a valued, they're valued parts of our communities.

00:52:22.639 --> 00:52:24.000
Um, and we've got to do better.

00:52:24.239 --> 00:52:30.719
We have to do better, not because we're told to, but actually because we want to do better and we must do better.

00:52:31.920 --> 00:52:43.440
Thinking you meant you mentioned obviously just just talking about questions there, and just just to just to bring it back to to Oliver, is there a question that you wish professionals had asked either yourself or Oliver earlier?

00:52:43.760 --> 00:52:47.199
One that might have changed the course of what happened.

00:52:47.360 --> 00:52:51.920
And I know it's hard to deal in hypotheticals, but how can we help you best?

00:52:53.440 --> 00:52:54.320
As simple as that, yeah.

00:52:54.559 --> 00:52:57.920
Ask, listen, do yeah treat Oliver as a human being.

00:52:58.079 --> 00:53:00.000
He had a voice, his voice was valuable.

00:53:00.320 --> 00:53:03.119
He understood himself very, very well.

00:53:03.679 --> 00:53:07.199
Just stop and think and remember why you're doing that job.

00:53:07.760 --> 00:53:10.960
The one question, how best can I help you?

00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:19.119
I I just want to uh quickly, and and this is a bit of a side question for me, but I I am interested in in the honours system.

00:53:19.840 --> 00:53:22.000
You are you are obviously is it OBE?

00:53:22.079 --> 00:53:22.320
Is that correct?

00:53:22.480 --> 00:53:23.199
It's an OBE, yes.

00:53:23.440 --> 00:53:23.920
OBE.

00:53:24.480 --> 00:53:27.119
I wouldn't even know how that process starts or how it works.

00:53:27.360 --> 00:53:28.079
Neither do I.

00:53:28.719 --> 00:53:31.119
I was gonna say, I was gonna ask, can you tell me a bit about it?

00:53:31.199 --> 00:53:32.159
But No, I can't I can't.

00:53:32.400 --> 00:53:32.960
Go on, please do.

00:53:33.199 --> 00:53:37.760
So if somebody nominates you and you don't know who that that person is, you still want to know that.

00:53:38.639 --> 00:53:39.679
You're not you're not to know.

00:53:39.840 --> 00:53:40.880
So that's my understanding.

00:53:41.039 --> 00:53:48.239
So it could have been anybody, and then of course, you get the letter, and you're not allowed to say anything at all.

00:53:49.280 --> 00:54:06.480
And for me, I I I was my my medal was presented by Prince William, and I really wanted Prince William because we are a military family, we're an Air Force family, and it mattered, it really mattered, but somebody pointed out to me, and you know, honestly, I even get chills now because I don't take any credit for this.

00:54:06.719 --> 00:54:11.679
You know, this is all about Oliver, and it's also all about our communities.

00:54:11.920 --> 00:54:17.679
This is who this is about, and somebody pointed out OBA Oliver behind everything.

00:54:18.159 --> 00:54:20.159
Wow, and I can feel Oliver on my shoulder now.

00:54:20.320 --> 00:54:23.039
I can I can feel him, and I do often actually.

00:54:23.599 --> 00:54:34.880
So, yes, it's lovely, it's lovely to have, but it's not that that that award belongs to Oliver and it belongs to for me, I would say it belongs to our neurodivergent communities.

00:54:35.119 --> 00:54:36.159
I'm just the voice.

00:54:36.320 --> 00:54:37.119
I'm just a voice.

00:54:37.360 --> 00:54:43.599
You you say just, I I I think as as someone who does, you know, voice for service user involvement, service user activity.

00:54:43.679 --> 00:54:45.519
I I think this is such an important thing.

00:54:45.679 --> 00:54:50.400
Just a voice, I think, is actually almost diminishing what you are actually doing.

00:54:50.639 --> 00:54:53.199
What I am, the biggest voices are our communities.

00:54:53.440 --> 00:54:54.320
I'll do my best.

00:54:54.480 --> 00:54:56.960
I don't get it right every time, but I try.

00:54:57.119 --> 00:55:00.159
I try to do, I try to make a difference where I can.

00:55:00.480 --> 00:55:02.800
Paula, thank you so much for for joining me on Believing People.

00:55:03.039 --> 00:55:09.039
I like to finish the the podcast series with a series of questions just to lighten the mood a little bit.

00:55:09.280 --> 00:55:12.320
Sometimes obviously, as you can see, there's there's heavy topics that we discuss here.

00:55:12.480 --> 00:55:15.360
And my first question for you is what's your favourite word?

00:55:15.760 --> 00:55:16.800
My favourite word?

00:55:17.760 --> 00:55:18.320
Listen.

00:55:18.880 --> 00:55:19.760
Least favourite word.

00:55:20.000 --> 00:55:22.239
Listen, sorry, least favour favourite word.

00:55:22.559 --> 00:55:22.880
No.

00:55:23.519 --> 00:55:25.119
Tell me something that excites you.

00:55:25.760 --> 00:55:27.039
Making a difference.

00:55:28.000 --> 00:55:31.920
Tell me something that either bores you or drains your energy.

00:55:32.559 --> 00:55:33.760
People that talk rubbish.

00:55:34.079 --> 00:55:35.840
What sound or noise do you love?

00:55:36.559 --> 00:55:38.000
Oh my god, let's out now.

00:55:38.159 --> 00:55:39.199
It's an interesting one, isn't it?

00:55:39.599 --> 00:55:40.159
I always find it.

00:55:40.320 --> 00:55:40.960
Do you know what's interesting?

00:55:41.199 --> 00:55:42.000
Sound or noise?

00:55:42.480 --> 00:55:43.119
I don't know.

00:55:43.760 --> 00:55:44.719
The school bell.

00:55:47.039 --> 00:55:48.800
Is there a sound or noise that you hate?

00:55:49.280 --> 00:55:51.920
High pitched screaming noises.

00:55:52.559 --> 00:55:55.039
When do you feel most like yourself?

00:55:57.920 --> 00:56:01.440
Oh gosh, that is a really, really interesting question.

00:56:01.679 --> 00:56:05.039
I think since Oliver left, I don't even know who I am anymore.

00:56:05.360 --> 00:56:06.800
I'm just Oliver's mum.

00:56:07.360 --> 00:56:08.800
That's an interesting question.

00:56:09.519 --> 00:56:12.320
What profession other than your own would you like to attempt?

00:56:12.559 --> 00:56:13.199
Oh, do you know?

00:56:13.280 --> 00:56:16.000
I was always going to go into the medical profession.

00:56:16.159 --> 00:56:20.159
And because my husband being in the Air Force, I needed to be doing what I was doing.

00:56:20.480 --> 00:56:27.280
And I was always going to go into therapy to support children going through cancer and different things midwifery as well at one point.

00:56:27.679 --> 00:56:28.880
I'm a bit old now.

00:56:29.119 --> 00:56:30.880
I'm 60, I'm old.

00:56:31.519 --> 00:56:32.559
So, do you know what?

00:56:32.639 --> 00:56:36.800
I I think we're put on this earth for a reason.

00:56:37.840 --> 00:56:42.800
I'm I'm, you know, I've lost Oliver, but I think I was put on this earth to do what I'm doing right now.

00:56:43.519 --> 00:56:44.159
I think so.

00:56:44.719 --> 00:56:46.639
What profession would you not like to do?

00:56:47.679 --> 00:56:53.280
A profession that causes harm, like abattoir or that type of thing.

00:56:54.239 --> 00:56:59.039
And lastly, if heaven exists, what would you like to hear God say when you arrive at the Pearley Gates?

00:56:59.280 --> 00:57:00.639
You made a difference.

00:57:01.039 --> 00:57:02.239
And all of us here.

00:57:02.880 --> 00:57:05.199
Paula, thank you so much for joining me on Believe in People.

00:57:05.440 --> 00:57:05.840
Thank you.

00:57:06.000 --> 00:57:06.960
Thank you for having me.

00:57:07.199 --> 00:57:09.519
And thank you for doing the work that you do.

00:57:09.760 --> 00:57:10.079
Thank you.

00:57:10.239 --> 00:57:10.800
It's very important.

00:57:11.039 --> 00:57:11.679
I appreciate that.

00:57:11.760 --> 00:57:12.239
Thank you.

00:57:12.480 --> 00:57:17.760
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00:57:17.920 --> 00:57:20.719
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00:57:21.039 --> 00:57:25.920
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00:57:26.079 --> 00:57:30.559
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