July 1, 2025

68 | Andy Woodward - The Whistleblower Who Changed Sports History Forever (Part 1)

68 | Andy Woodward - The Whistleblower Who Changed Sports History Forever (Part 1)
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68 | Andy Woodward - The Whistleblower Who Changed Sports History Forever (Part 1)
68 | Andy Woodward - The Whistleblower Who Changed Sports History Forever (Part 1)
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Season 1

In the first of a powerful two-part conversation, Andy Woodward joins Believe in People to recount the beginning of a journey that would ultimately expose one of the biggest scandals in British sporting history. 

A former professional footballer, Andy was the first to go public with his experience of childhood sexual abuse at the hands of Barry Bennell, a youth coach whose crimes were concealed for decades by a culture of silence within football.

With striking honesty, Andy describes how predators like Bennell groom not only children but entire families, building trust to enable long-term abuse. He explains how the “position of trust” was weaponised, and how the sport’s insular, protective culture became a fortress -  one that prioritised clubs over children and reputation over truth.

This episode also explores the wider emotional toll of Andy’s early experiences, including the haunting connection between his abuser and the man who murdered his aunt, a trauma that reverberated across his family and shaped much of his adult life.

Part one lays bare the origins of a profound personal reckoning. It sets the stage for part two, where Andy will speak candidly about the years of pain, addiction, and eventual healing that followed - a testament to how deeply childhood trauma can ripple through a life, and how recovery begins by speaking the truth.

 🎧 Part two of Andy’s story continues next week.

Click here to text our host, Matt, directly!

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🔗 Then share this episode with someone you know who could benefit from it.

Browse the full archive at 👉 www.believeinpeoplepodcast.com

This is a toolkit for recovery & resilience. Whether you’re in recovery or seeking to understand addiction, there’s something here for everyone.

📩 Contact: robbie@believeinpeoplepodcast.com
🎵 Music: “Jonathan Tortoise” by Christopher Tait (Belle Ghoul / Electric Six)

🔗 Listen & Subscribe
Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/4Cr4wzZ6bxku1cRcoYKbGK
Apple: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/believe-in-people/id1617239923

🎙️ Facilitator: Matthew Butler
🎛️ Producer: Robbie Lawson
🏢 Network: ReNew

00:00 - Andy's Revelation: Breaking Football's Silence

10:12 - Grooming Process: The Master Manipulator

18:45 - Family Devastation and Repeated Abuse

31:27 - Empathy, Trauma and Addiction Connection

42:22 - Institutional Protection and Police Corruption

56:19 - Ripple Effects: The Sister's Story

01:09:17 - Recovery Journey and Darkest Moments

WEBVTT

00:00:18.352 --> 00:00:20.713
This is a Renew, original Recording 2016,.

00:00:20.713 --> 00:00:27.897
Andy Woodward broke decades of silence to expose the truth, a truth that would shatter the walls of British football and reverberate across the world.

00:00:27.897 --> 00:00:33.591
His revelation of child sexual abuse at the hands of coach Barry Bunnell wasn't just a personal reckoning.

00:00:33.591 --> 00:00:38.631
It became one of the most significant disclosures of institutional failure in modern sporting history.

00:00:38.631 --> 00:00:48.134
For the first time, a former professional footballer stood up, named his abuser and laid bare the culture of silence and complicity that had shielded Predators for generations.

00:00:48.134 --> 00:00:52.109
It was a moment of seismic courage, and it came at a cost.

00:00:53.072 --> 00:01:03.085
Today, in the first of a two-part story, andy joins believing people to retrace that journey Not just the headline, not just the trauma, but the full weight and the quiet triumphs of survival.

00:01:04.048 --> 00:01:14.731
He speaks not only as a survivor of horrific abuse, but as a man who has walked through the addiction, grief, betrayal, systemic corruption and the raw aftermath of speaking the truth to global headlines.

00:01:14.731 --> 00:01:21.588
This is a conversation about trauma, about abuse and power, vulnerability and silence, recovery and justice.

00:01:21.588 --> 00:01:30.742
But more than that, it's about what happens when the news cycle moves on and one man is left alone with a wreckage, trying to rebuild his life from the ashes of someone else's crime.

00:01:30.742 --> 00:01:40.960
Andy walks us through the earliest signs of grooming, the culture of 1980s football and the devastating ripple effects that abuse has not just on a child but on an entire family.

00:01:40.960 --> 00:01:51.861
He opens up about how addiction crept in, about self-destruction, and speaks of healing, a therapy, reflection, faith and a fierce refusal to let what happened define the rest of his life.

00:01:51.861 --> 00:01:56.719
I begin my conversation with Andy today about his reflection on the journey into the seat today.

00:01:57.742 --> 00:02:06.472
Yeah, I mean, the journey has been a long journey and we'll talk about it, but I think you know I'll start off with today.

00:02:06.472 --> 00:02:15.712
Really, and it was a journey in itself and the journey was coming from Manchester, where my home routes were.

00:02:15.712 --> 00:02:20.283
I passed Manchester City's football ground, the Etihad.

00:02:20.283 --> 00:03:09.331
I looked at it, I smiled, I stopped off on the way and I came outside the station and I looked up and the sun was shining and I saw a fish and then I saw a water and a fountain and I had a true reflection there in such a positive manner and and I looked and I thought I played for Sheffield United, I'm going to Hull, I'm going to release sort of speak about what happened, and I smiled again and I arrived at Hull and the connection with Robbie came as it did, and he invited me to this and I'm here today.

00:03:10.532 --> 00:03:14.875
And it's a pleasure to have you here, and I often don't research our guests.

00:03:14.935 --> 00:03:36.433
I think one of the unique selling points of this podcast is that I come in blind, that I'm hearing the story for the first time, and for a majority of what you say today I will be hearing for the first time, but I have heard a little bit about your story and it is a difficult topic and it's a difficult conversation and the bravery of yourself to to share it and, I think, being transparent.

00:03:36.433 --> 00:04:06.149
I watched a short interview that you did in 2016 I think it was with victoria derbyshire, where you spoke about your story and, seeing you there in the interview seat, you looked like a child and I was expecting that today, but you walked into the room with so much confidence and energy and I'm aware that that interview took place almost 10 years ago, so a lot can change and I think it's evident that a lot has changed for yourself.

00:04:06.149 --> 00:04:18.851
Yeah, tell us about that story to give our listeners an overview of what happened to you, and we'll discuss your journey from that point to where you are now.

00:04:19.661 --> 00:04:31.800
A book tends to start at the beginning, when it all started, tends to start at the beginning when it all started.

00:04:31.821 --> 00:04:36.964
I'll start first in 2016, because that was a poignant moment in my life like there's been many.

00:04:36.964 --> 00:04:54.468
But in 2016 I decided, decided to go public and I revealed what I'd say now is the biggest revelation, whistleblowing in sporting history.

00:04:54.468 --> 00:05:11.634
It's been documented and I revealed a truth, a hidden secret, a trauma, something that is in humanity and has been for generations.

00:05:11.634 --> 00:05:22.928
And I sat the night before and I spoke to Neil Warnock and Stan Turman and we'll talk about how that evolved.

00:05:22.928 --> 00:05:51.029
But that night was a significant moment in my life where I sat there crying my eyes out that I'd pressed that green button to go to put my face on the front of a national newspaper without anybody knowing, anybody intervening with it, stopping it.

00:05:51.029 --> 00:05:56.069
They didn't know and that button could have gone two ways.

00:05:56.069 --> 00:06:04.903
It went the right way, but the wrong way would have been that I wouldn't be sat here today.

00:06:04.903 --> 00:06:09.810
It was revealed in the Guardian.

00:06:09.810 --> 00:06:12.514
It was trending above Trump.

00:06:19.040 --> 00:06:41.812
And I revealed a revelation that I didn't know what journey I was going to go on and that is a part, just a part, of my life, but it was significant and it changed the direction of my future because it was about what happened to me as a child and that started before I was born.

00:06:41.812 --> 00:07:01.226
So those that are watching this and they see about synergy of life, of our journey of life, there's some that will say it goes beyond that with people's DNA.

00:07:01.226 --> 00:07:10.714
Before I was born, in 1971, my mum was one of 11 children.

00:07:10.714 --> 00:07:21.872
My auntie was nine months pregnant and she's walking down a road, vulnerable, at night, pitch black, to go and see her boyfriend.

00:07:21.872 --> 00:07:31.892
A man, a predator, was waiting and that predator took her in her back garden and brutally murdered her.

00:07:31.892 --> 00:07:40.291
That defined my mum and dad's life, because then they started with the protection.

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They were damaged.

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They were damaged.

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That man was caught, convicted.

00:07:59.117 --> 00:07:59.800
His name was Ronald Bernal.

00:08:09.100 --> 00:08:12.206
Ten years later well, probably twelve years later pass were crossed again, 10 years of age, playing for Stockport County, stockport Boys.

00:08:12.206 --> 00:08:13.548
On the pitch, a vulnerable child.

00:08:13.548 --> 00:08:17.475
A coach came and watched.

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That coach was Barry Bunnell.

00:08:20.360 --> 00:08:24.769
I was vulnerable, I was a soft one.

00:08:24.769 --> 00:08:31.987
The reason I was that it was because my mum and dad nurtured me as a child, protected me.

00:08:31.987 --> 00:08:34.631
We're the most loving parents.

00:08:34.631 --> 00:08:38.503
They were damaged from what had happened previous.

00:08:38.503 --> 00:09:04.208
However, little did they know that this evil man, this coach Barry Bunnell, was going to go on to damage the whole family again, and the reason why I say again is because it was his cousin that murdered my mum's sister that's insane.

00:09:04.229 --> 00:09:05.272
All those things tied together.

00:09:07.461 --> 00:09:16.486
That is the defining moments of life and I know it's hard hitting.

00:09:16.486 --> 00:09:20.090
It's a lot for people to get their head around.

00:09:20.090 --> 00:09:20.471
Yeah, yeah.

00:09:20.471 --> 00:09:32.764
But there's also theories about DNA, about life and generations and paths of life, how they cross and how.

00:09:32.764 --> 00:09:38.648
But that defined my life, my family's life, yet again.

00:09:38.648 --> 00:09:39.149
Yeah.

00:09:39.149 --> 00:09:42.745
And that started when.

00:09:42.745 --> 00:09:43.990
I was 10 years of age.

00:09:45.961 --> 00:09:47.126
Tell me how it started.

00:09:47.126 --> 00:09:53.293
Obviously, did you feel like you was targeted for a reason by Baron Bernal?

00:09:53.293 --> 00:09:54.645
Do you feel like you was chosen?

00:09:54.645 --> 00:10:11.528
Talk to me about your first meeting with him and how things started to process into abuse, Because I think with abusive relationships an element of trust has to come first.

00:10:11.528 --> 00:10:14.889
It's rare that it's a case of it just comes out of the blue.

00:10:14.889 --> 00:10:22.712
It's often a trust-building process before things start to turn into the malevolence that you experienced.

00:10:22.712 --> 00:10:30.052
Talk to me a little bit about that relationship and how it built up to the point of the first time that you was sexually abused by Barry.

00:10:30.179 --> 00:10:36.232
I mean now I know, the knowing of how it all starts.

00:10:36.232 --> 00:10:36.614
Yeah.

00:10:36.614 --> 00:10:40.650
And it starts with relationships.

00:10:40.650 --> 00:10:49.706
Building a relationship yeah, that's what he mastered From an evil side.

00:10:49.706 --> 00:10:50.207
Hmm.

00:10:50.207 --> 00:10:56.409
He knew how to build a relationship, yeah, with my parents.

00:10:56.409 --> 00:11:02.809
It didn't matter about me as a child, because I was chosen.

00:11:03.451 --> 00:11:26.072
He'd made a team up and he had the in the dark side of humanity he had his own dark gift of identifying from his experiences and his past of who was the vulnerable ones there, who were the softer, the weaker ones.

00:11:26.072 --> 00:11:28.620
Yeah, he knew which ones to target.

00:11:28.620 --> 00:11:33.168
He'd also identify the parents, analyze them.

00:11:33.168 --> 00:11:38.520
What was the background, what was the child's parents like?

00:11:38.520 --> 00:11:41.602
And that's the grooming process.

00:11:41.602 --> 00:11:43.004
Yeah, so yes.

00:11:43.004 --> 00:11:44.205
So yes, was I chosen?

00:11:44.205 --> 00:11:53.871
Yes, he had a certain type dark hair, that type of image in his sick mind.

00:11:53.871 --> 00:12:14.649
So, yes, the relationship, the first start, in the first interaction he had modeled himself as a Piedper, great at football, personality, dark skin on the sunbeds, look great, could do every skill in the book.

00:12:14.649 --> 00:12:17.676
That was his package.

00:12:17.676 --> 00:12:25.633
As a pedophile, he could morph into different realms of who he was and what he was.

00:12:25.633 --> 00:12:36.034
So my initial reaction at 10 years of age, as a child, was that he was the best thing in the world.

00:12:36.034 --> 00:12:41.831
Yeah, my dream of a football ex-footballer.

00:12:41.831 --> 00:12:45.107
Brilliant, he had all the tricks, et cetera.

00:12:45.259 --> 00:12:47.126
The person who can make your dreams come true.

00:12:47.126 --> 00:12:47.769
Yes, yeah.

00:12:48.299 --> 00:12:53.445
So when we're talking about an analogy of you know when you go fishing.

00:12:53.445 --> 00:12:53.966
Yeah.

00:12:53.966 --> 00:12:56.668
Our target is the fish.

00:12:56.668 --> 00:13:04.149
What we do is we hook that fish, but that fish could be several fish.

00:13:04.149 --> 00:13:08.571
So what I'm talking about here is several fish there.

00:13:08.571 --> 00:13:09.942
Yeah, I need to hook.

00:13:09.942 --> 00:13:23.269
Yeah, that can be the families, the parents, the others around that yeah and once he's hooked, all that, the central point of that the child.

00:13:23.269 --> 00:13:26.456
Child doesn't even need bait.

00:13:26.456 --> 00:13:28.299
Yeah yeah, got it, got it yeah.

00:13:29.000 --> 00:13:38.605
Because in the interview with Victoria Derbyshire you talked about how he'd asked your parents if you could stay over.

00:13:38.605 --> 00:13:45.889
Correct me if I'm wrong there, but he asked your parents if you could stay over and that's when it first started to happen.

00:13:45.889 --> 00:13:48.729
Obviously, like yourself, you say you're in awe of this person.

00:13:48.729 --> 00:13:59.148
Connections with Manchester City ex-footballer, looked the part, had the knowledge, had the skill set and it's almost like, yeah, I get to spend time with this guy.

00:13:59.148 --> 00:14:02.046
That sounds incredible, but that's when the abuse started.

00:14:02.046 --> 00:14:12.806
One of my questions that I had when I watched this, and it could be a period of the time.

00:14:12.806 --> 00:14:14.932
Maybe we're more aware of this now, but you describe your parents as very protective, loving and nurturing.

00:14:14.932 --> 00:14:21.587
I, if I try and put myself in that position and a grown man says your child can stay over at my house, I'd be like red flag flag.

00:14:21.587 --> 00:14:22.288
Absolutely not.

00:14:22.288 --> 00:14:24.854
Why did your parents let you go?

00:14:24.953 --> 00:14:25.514
over and stay.

00:14:25.514 --> 00:14:44.312
Because when we're going back to the 80s and what people really find hard to grasp is that when that question when they were so protective of you, why did they allow you to go there?

00:14:44.312 --> 00:14:54.081
Of of you, why did they allow you to go there?

00:14:54.081 --> 00:15:02.571
Yeah, his, his, the way that he had orchestrated everything, his grooming side of things, and how he got all the parents and not the children.

00:15:02.571 --> 00:15:07.356
But the parents all saw it as a dream.

00:15:07.356 --> 00:15:08.904
He was a dream.

00:15:08.904 --> 00:15:17.830
He was able to grasp every single one of them so he could pick which ones.

00:15:17.830 --> 00:15:18.493
Yeah.

00:15:20.780 --> 00:15:24.490
And my mum and dad were also damaged from a past.

00:15:24.490 --> 00:15:28.568
Yeah, yeah, didn't know that he was related to him.

00:15:28.940 --> 00:15:30.163
I was going to say did they know?

00:15:30.163 --> 00:15:31.047
Did they make the connection?

00:15:31.047 --> 00:15:36.312
Oh no, no, this happened way this happened to all of us later in life.

00:15:37.181 --> 00:15:46.210
But my mum did have a moment where she even said when we were older, the name struck in her head.

00:15:46.210 --> 00:15:59.490
But that team and the parents and the way that he did it and not only did he do it to my team, he did it with every team.

00:15:59.490 --> 00:16:07.006
So when you think about how he'd orchestrated this, he was a master at it.

00:16:07.006 --> 00:16:17.232
So when I came into the scene at 10, he'd already done it numerous times with numerous teams.

00:16:17.232 --> 00:16:20.907
He'd learned to master it.

00:16:20.907 --> 00:16:22.465
So that's what?

00:16:22.485 --> 00:16:25.927
so it wasn't his first time doing it with yourself, and that team was just something he'd got good at Very good it yeah.

00:16:25.927 --> 00:16:26.249
So that's what.

00:16:26.349 --> 00:16:28.715
It wasn't his first time doing it with yourself and that team.

00:16:28.715 --> 00:16:29.256
This is something he'd got.

00:16:29.277 --> 00:16:38.225
he'd got good at Very good at Talk to me about the first time that you had that encounter, that, that sexual encounter with Barry, I believe you was.

00:16:38.225 --> 00:16:39.109
Was you 10 years old?

00:16:39.109 --> 00:16:39.770
11 years old?

00:16:39.770 --> 00:16:46.490
Yeah, such a young age to even try and comprehend what what is actually happening there.

00:16:46.971 --> 00:16:47.153
Yeah.

00:16:47.940 --> 00:16:51.187
What happened and what was your thoughts when it was happening?

00:16:52.831 --> 00:17:00.488
Yeah, if you're comfortable in answering that question, no no, no, I'm, as you can see, I'm here to, I'm here to it's one thing to.

00:17:00.508 --> 00:17:06.115
It's one thing to say before, like everything's up, but then when we talk about it I'm like I don't want to push you obviously too much on anything.

00:17:06.115 --> 00:17:06.895
No, not at all.

00:17:13.519 --> 00:17:26.023
You see, one of the hardest things in anybody that suffers from significant trauma from a past is it's very, very difficult to stop when we're adults talking about it.

00:17:26.023 --> 00:17:31.300
Yeah, it's so difficult to to relate to that child.

00:17:31.300 --> 00:17:43.472
The child is within you, but as an adult we tend to not be able to accept it yeah and we can't think as a child.

00:17:43.553 --> 00:18:00.172
We think as an adult with past trauma, and although those videos are there of it happening, our brain as an adult can't go back to the child within of those events.

00:18:00.172 --> 00:18:01.493
What was I thinking?

00:18:01.493 --> 00:18:04.528
What was I feeling Until you've healed?

00:18:04.528 --> 00:18:18.107
What was I thinking?

00:18:18.107 --> 00:18:23.493
What was I feeling until you've healed, so I can now disassociate the emotional attachment to that as an adult and.

00:18:24.394 --> 00:18:35.369
So when I was that child I know I was in utmost fear frozen when he first did what he did.

00:18:35.369 --> 00:18:43.743
When I talk about frozen, I mean frozen, yeah, frozen, yeah, absolutely yeah.

00:18:43.743 --> 00:19:06.106
Didn't know, never experienced anything like it, but as a 10 year old, I encourage people with trauma now, as a child is, to go around in society and look at that 10 year old and how vulnerable that child is.

00:19:06.106 --> 00:19:08.806
It's not their fault.

00:19:08.806 --> 00:19:09.228
No.

00:19:09.228 --> 00:19:16.353
And the feeling of that first time was ultimate frozen.

00:19:16.353 --> 00:19:16.673
Yeah.

00:19:18.902 --> 00:19:22.310
And he knew that that was going to be the reaction.

00:19:22.471 --> 00:19:25.019
Hmm, how many times um that?

00:19:25.019 --> 00:19:27.144
That was going to be the reaction.

00:19:27.144 --> 00:19:30.952
How many times do you think he was raped by Barry Bunnell?

00:19:32.359 --> 00:19:32.582
Do you know?

00:19:32.582 --> 00:19:46.730
It's funny you said that because I saw the question was asked and 300, 400, how many times do you want?

00:19:46.730 --> 00:19:56.806
I've calculated it kind of so from the age of 10, and it's funny.

00:19:56.806 --> 00:19:59.148
I watched and I said four years.

00:19:59.148 --> 00:20:05.256
The last time he touched me I was aged 16.

00:20:05.256 --> 00:20:11.451
That shows you what hold he had over me.

00:20:11.451 --> 00:20:20.430
So when we're talking six years for a four-year period, I would take the six weeks holidays off.

00:20:20.430 --> 00:20:24.368
Any holiday period I would be off.

00:20:24.368 --> 00:20:30.944
I used to not go to school for a week.

00:20:30.984 --> 00:20:41.534
Calculate that every night it's such a significant time for anybody growing up between between 10 and 16.

00:20:41.534 --> 00:20:49.387
They're what we'd call our informative years and I think with teenagers we'll always see um changes in behavior.

00:20:49.387 --> 00:21:02.505
Naturally through that time, yeah, but I think now, as as professionals and maybe society, we're more educated on the signs and symptoms of sexual abuse in children and how that might play out.

00:21:02.505 --> 00:21:11.492
Now I can't imagine that you went through everything that you went through at the hands of barry bunnell and your parents didn't see a change in you.

00:21:11.492 --> 00:21:13.865
Did they see changes?

00:21:13.865 --> 00:21:15.689
Was they worried about what was happening to you?

00:21:16.250 --> 00:21:27.823
I think what I'm trying to get at is I don't understand how you can go through what you went through as much as you did and your parents have no idea that that was happening and maybe again it's.

00:21:27.823 --> 00:21:34.346
This is sound of the times, but I feel like I'd be able to go something's happening there, spending a lot of time with that person.

00:21:34.346 --> 00:21:35.347
This isn't right.

00:21:35.347 --> 00:21:36.592
This could be happening.

00:21:36.592 --> 00:21:39.932
This needs to be investigated and I'd put them dots together really quickly.

00:21:39.932 --> 00:21:44.991
How did the your family and the people that you know were responsible for you not see what was going on?

00:21:44.991 --> 00:21:47.240
How did your family and the people that you know were responsible for you not see what was going on.

00:21:47.240 --> 00:21:49.166
How did he get away with it for so long?

00:21:49.701 --> 00:21:50.826
Well, this is the thing, isn't it?

00:21:50.826 --> 00:21:56.673
This is the ultimate question that everybody has in 2025.

00:21:56.673 --> 00:22:00.210
You know, I broke what I did in 2016.

00:22:00.210 --> 00:22:02.807
Prior to that, there was Jimmy Savile.

00:22:02.807 --> 00:22:08.163
The same questions how did they get away with it for so long?

00:22:08.163 --> 00:22:16.963
The the catholic church when it grows yeah the film industry, the music industry.

00:22:16.963 --> 00:22:21.631
How did they get away with it for so long?

00:22:22.673 --> 00:22:35.922
the only thing I can think of is that people and I'm not talking about your parents here when I mentioned this, but I'm talking about people that was around barry that knew, barry, that he wasn't operating I mean sexually abusing people by himself, maybe, but he would have had people around him.

00:22:35.922 --> 00:22:43.526
The only thing I can think of is people know, or they may have had an idea, but turned a blind eye to it.

00:22:43.526 --> 00:22:46.421
That is the only way I can imagine, and it was the same with jimmy saville.

00:22:46.421 --> 00:22:50.520
We've heard all the stories within the bbc that executives knew but they turned a blind eye.

00:22:52.464 --> 00:22:53.487
There is a power thing there.

00:22:53.487 --> 00:22:58.005
I mean, if that person's above them, there's the fear of keep my head down, don't say anything, don't get in trouble.

00:22:58.005 --> 00:23:10.794
The only thing I can think of when we say, how did they get away with it for so long is that people did know, but they chose not to do anything about it out of fear of consequence or repercussions to themselves as an adult.

00:23:10.794 --> 00:23:13.963
Now, looking back at that, do you think that was the case?

00:23:13.963 --> 00:23:19.644
Or do you genuinely think people had no idea what he was doing to yourself and so many other young boys?

00:23:21.926 --> 00:23:28.638
firstly, I'm gonna touch on the first question, that you asked me yeah, about how?

00:23:28.679 --> 00:23:33.305
did the parents not question what?

00:23:33.305 --> 00:23:35.548
What you did there was?

00:23:35.548 --> 00:23:45.508
You said about how you now, in 2025, yeah, would think, and alarm bells would go whoa, why is he?

00:23:45.508 --> 00:23:47.532
Why is he staying there a long time?

00:23:47.532 --> 00:23:50.145
Or they're staying there a long time.

00:23:50.145 --> 00:23:51.190
That doesn't look right.

00:23:51.190 --> 00:24:05.369
Guts, go in alarm bells If we go back in history to the 80s and the mindset of people then, where it was the hidden secret.

00:24:05.369 --> 00:24:17.029
There was no safeguarding, there was nobody talking about it, it wasn't institutionalized, it wasn't out there, nobody was talking about it.

00:24:17.029 --> 00:24:20.268
And then you can go further back.

00:24:20.268 --> 00:24:28.510
This has been going on for generations in all areas and industries.

00:24:28.510 --> 00:24:31.960
Yeah, did anybody speak then?

00:24:31.960 --> 00:24:34.363
Did any parents speak?

00:24:34.363 --> 00:24:34.522
Then?

00:24:34.522 --> 00:24:44.132
Did they put a position of trust, my book, a position of trust, a position of power?

00:24:44.132 --> 00:24:46.534
Of course you can.

00:24:46.534 --> 00:24:48.215
This is great.

00:24:50.759 --> 00:24:52.722
You're going to protect my son and daughter the gymnast.

00:24:52.722 --> 00:24:55.647
You're going to protect my son and daughter, the church.

00:24:55.647 --> 00:25:05.541
Wow, faith Priest, of course you are Position of power, parents.

00:25:05.541 --> 00:25:09.784
You can go to church, you can go play football, you can be a gymnast, you can be a swimmer.

00:25:09.784 --> 00:25:11.807
Go in the music industry.

00:25:11.807 --> 00:25:19.269
All position of power and trust, I suppose.

00:25:19.430 --> 00:25:25.608
So if we go, sorry to interrupt, but if we go, back Through generations, it was a free for all.

00:25:25.628 --> 00:25:28.261
And the next question you asked Sorry to interrupt, but if we go back through generations, it was a free-for-all.

00:25:28.261 --> 00:25:37.667
And the next question you asked about those position of power and trust and in these industries, institutes.

00:25:37.667 --> 00:25:40.394
Did they know about it?

00:25:40.394 --> 00:25:44.839
The knowing I always use the phrase knowing.

00:25:44.839 --> 00:25:47.042
The knowing I always use the phrase knowing.

00:25:47.042 --> 00:25:51.210
Those illicit to it were part of it.

00:25:51.210 --> 00:25:51.569
Yeah.

00:25:51.569 --> 00:25:54.453
Some were, some weren't.

00:25:58.501 --> 00:26:05.450
But, knowing, yes, Silence yes, silence is compliance is something that I've heard before.

00:26:05.450 --> 00:26:07.551
Thank you, and that is it.

00:26:07.551 --> 00:26:09.534
I think it's one of them.

00:26:09.534 --> 00:26:18.195
Things really where, like I say, we talk about the sound of the times and things changing.

00:26:18.195 --> 00:26:18.798
It's just insane.

00:26:18.798 --> 00:26:44.626
But I think, really, going back to when you did Whistleblower and the importance of these movements that have happened the Me Too movement in Hollywood, you coming forth and breaking silence here, as you said, it's because of you doing what you've done why the systems are changing, why there is more education, why position of trust and position of authority Now I deliver safeguarding training and we talk a lot about positions of trust and just because someone is in that position doesn't necessarily mean they're a trustworthy person.

00:26:48.599 --> 00:26:50.528
And I think I mean mean look at the the sarah everard case with the police.

00:26:50.528 --> 00:26:52.214
That was a police officer who committed that crime against her.

00:26:52.214 --> 00:26:55.785
The one person that people will naturally feel safe with would be a police officer.

00:26:55.785 --> 00:27:07.354
So the injustice and the systemic corruption and everything that goes on it happens everywhere and I'm really pushing that position of trust.

00:27:07.354 --> 00:27:12.107
Just because someone is in a position of trust doesn't mean they can be trusted.

00:27:12.970 --> 00:27:13.652
Absolutely.

00:27:13.652 --> 00:27:32.694
And you use the word corruption very delicate word, corruption, and it's certainly in our modern times and right now, as we speak, there is more and more people coming out and talking about that word corruption.

00:27:32.694 --> 00:27:36.810
Very powerful word, but very true.

00:27:39.039 --> 00:27:48.326
Barry Burnell died in 2023, I believe two years ago from cancer.

00:27:48.326 --> 00:27:49.881
I believe it was Now.

00:27:49.881 --> 00:28:01.830
There was stories that I, again, like I say, once I watched the interview with Victoria Derbyshire, I went and started looking at a few other articles and I saw that there was stories about how he'd been beat up in prison.

00:28:01.830 --> 00:28:11.247
When you saw those stories and I imagine you maybe saw them in real time when these things was coming up how did you feel?

00:28:11.247 --> 00:28:13.806
When you found out things like that were happening to him in prison?

00:28:13.806 --> 00:28:19.548
And when he died, how did you feel then?

00:28:19.548 --> 00:28:27.829
Well, he served 10 years of the prison sentence as well, hadn't he?

00:28:27.829 --> 00:28:28.332
Yeah?

00:28:28.432 --> 00:28:36.010
yeah yeah so if we're, I'll go off what you, the direction and the questions that you ask.

00:28:36.010 --> 00:28:46.530
So when he died in 2023, I'm a big believer of I've told you the journey.

00:28:46.530 --> 00:28:48.714
I alluded to it at the start.

00:28:48.714 --> 00:28:58.824
I'd been on a long healing journey, which we'll talk about about the eight years since doing the Victoria Derbyshire, but you've asked me that.

00:28:58.824 --> 00:29:06.194
So on that day it was the Saturday before.

00:29:07.319 --> 00:29:39.471
Now my gut always tells me something is wrong and on the Saturday I was due to do a talk and ironically, it was in Oldham, the central hub of grooming gangs, et cetera, and I was doing a talk there to talk about what had happened to me and also to support those that have been affected by the grooming gangs, the paedophilia.

00:29:41.282 --> 00:29:59.013
I felt sick on that morning and I didn't want to do the talk because something wasn't right and I go with my gut and I felt poorly, but I'm all about helping others.

00:29:59.013 --> 00:30:21.699
So I did the talk and I sat down on the wall afterwards and I felt to myself something isn't right, something's happened and I started to worry about my mum, because she's had cancer four times, and started to worry about my kids, or something happened to them, and I heard nothing.

00:30:21.699 --> 00:30:41.599
They were fine, but I knew something wasn't right and on the Monday morning I got the phone call off Danny Taylor, of all people, to tell me that he died on the Saturday.

00:30:41.599 --> 00:30:48.984
It was like something dark was coming out of me and leaving me.

00:30:48.984 --> 00:30:50.007
He was gone.

00:30:50.007 --> 00:30:52.372
You asked me how I felt.

00:30:54.241 --> 00:30:55.144
Nothing.

00:30:55.144 --> 00:31:04.387
I had a feeling he was going to say that Because I think some people may think that I suppose that's the comeuppance.

00:31:04.387 --> 00:31:14.287
He's dead, Des it rightly so, but for someone who would put you through everything that you'd gone through, I don't think anything.

00:31:14.287 --> 00:31:19.826
When I talked about the assaults in prison, I don't think there's anything that could have happened to that person that would have made you feel better.

00:31:19.826 --> 00:31:25.430
I imagine a lot of what happened was met with nothingness.

00:31:26.352 --> 00:31:58.835
No, numbness, no, but what I'd also identified with that and this is where I not alarm bells but light bulbs went off with me because what I could see, feel, because I'm out of feel, touch, see, I could clearly see that I'd healed fully on my journey of recovery from what he'd done to me.

00:31:58.835 --> 00:32:16.748
Looking back at 2016, when I did that first interview with Victoria and I said I'd had 20 years of therapy and I'm okay, I was still a child there.

00:32:16.748 --> 00:32:20.930
Yeah, I was still on my healing process.

00:32:20.930 --> 00:32:48.979
But move on 20, 2023, which we'll talk about what I've gone, done in between all that, I was still on my healing process hmm, I've had to heal through that where 2023 I felt nothing and many others that were part of that have gone on several different paths.

00:32:50.428 --> 00:33:05.415
I can't speak for them, but my gut saying they haven't truly healed Because they will talk, they will do, they want to help people, etc.

00:33:05.415 --> 00:33:14.378
But until you get to that moment where there's nothing, it's called balance.

00:33:14.378 --> 00:33:14.980
Yeah.

00:33:14.980 --> 00:33:18.413
Everybody in life wants balance.

00:33:18.413 --> 00:33:18.855
Yeah.

00:33:18.855 --> 00:33:24.758
You can only get to that balance once you've truly healed.

00:33:24.758 --> 00:33:28.029
So I didn't feel anything.

00:33:28.029 --> 00:33:32.798
Balance, balance, yeah.

00:33:33.464 --> 00:33:58.025
Talking about the initial disclosure on the news, I guess, with where you was, front page of the news, hot topic, the story in everyone's mouths, and then, like everything in life, the news moves on to something else.

00:33:58.025 --> 00:34:03.546
Do you feel like in some way, that you blew the whistle, disclosed?

00:34:03.546 --> 00:34:16.277
What you did was I'm going to use the word exploited by the media and then just dropped and then forgotten about, almost worsening your struggles?

00:34:16.277 --> 00:34:18.010
Now everybody knows in some way.

00:34:18.010 --> 00:34:18.492
Yeah.

00:34:18.826 --> 00:34:26.152
Well, in the way everybody knows, yeah, but where were you at after that, after that initial disclosure?

00:34:26.152 --> 00:34:26.980
Yeah, well, what I'll start After?

00:34:27.000 --> 00:34:27.483
that initial disclosure.

00:34:27.483 --> 00:34:30.753
Yeah, well, what I'll start with was the initial Victoria.

00:34:30.753 --> 00:34:40.958
Yeah, um, I was really vulnerable and I saw that child in me and some of the questions were low ballers.

00:34:40.958 --> 00:34:43.829
Yeah, you know I was kind of whoa.

00:34:43.829 --> 00:34:44.873
Was it live as well?

00:34:45.092 --> 00:34:48.235
Yeah, it was live Even more, even more difficult.

00:34:48.255 --> 00:34:48.860
Even more difficult.

00:34:48.860 --> 00:34:50.588
Yeah, the green room.

00:34:50.588 --> 00:34:51.871
She was lovely.

00:34:51.871 --> 00:34:53.836
Yeah, let's do this.

00:34:53.836 --> 00:34:55.911
I just wanted to get it out there.

00:34:55.911 --> 00:34:56.987
I didn't want to.

00:34:56.987 --> 00:35:01.797
You know, I wasn't bothered about going on TV, of course, yeah, yeah, it wasn't about that.

00:35:01.797 --> 00:35:02.786
It was never about that.

00:35:02.806 --> 00:35:05.190
Just the quickest way to get the information out there, isn't it as well?

00:35:05.210 --> 00:35:09.414
yeah, and, to expose it, it went massive that day.

00:35:09.414 --> 00:35:11.478
They were straight on to me.

00:35:11.478 --> 00:35:14.326
People can make their own assumptions.

00:35:14.326 --> 00:35:22.992
Bbc yeah, we want you following morning on national tv live.

00:35:22.992 --> 00:35:34.561
National TV live still really recovering from the initial doing that Very vulnerable, yeah, extremely.

00:35:34.561 --> 00:35:36.849
And you could see it.

00:35:36.849 --> 00:35:37.692
You saw it, didn't you?

00:35:37.692 --> 00:35:38.606
Yeah, yeah, yeah, what about?

00:35:38.626 --> 00:35:40.693
that poor child.

00:35:40.693 --> 00:35:41.034
That's it.

00:35:41.034 --> 00:35:45.929
Yeah, like I said, I thought when I'm watching it watching it before today I just wanted to give you a hug.

00:35:45.929 --> 00:35:46.817
I said Jesus it watching it before today.

00:35:46.817 --> 00:35:47.742
I just wanted to give you a hug, I said Jesus.

00:35:47.762 --> 00:35:48.005
Christ, yeah.

00:35:48.005 --> 00:35:55.059
And I was just in this massive whirlwind of in my mind.

00:35:55.059 --> 00:35:58.791
I need to expose this, I need to help people.

00:35:58.791 --> 00:36:04.231
Come on, others come help, help, help, because that's all the focus was then.

00:36:04.231 --> 00:36:06.726
Did that?

00:36:06.726 --> 00:36:12.806
It then blew again and I end up doing so many interviews.

00:36:12.806 --> 00:36:25.717
It was phenomenal, but in my head I was just going, yeah, I'll do it, because what we also find with a person that suffered like that, we tend to organically be a yes person.

00:36:25.717 --> 00:36:27.159
We can't say no.

00:36:27.159 --> 00:36:46.715
So I was doing all these interviews and what was significant is, a week or so later, the other some more lads had come forward and it was come back, let's do another impactive, powerful something.

00:36:46.715 --> 00:36:50.815
Andy was on his own, lonesome.

00:36:50.815 --> 00:36:55.335
Now we've got a few here that can all speak.

00:36:56.686 --> 00:37:03.278
It became a very powerful, powerful piece of live TV.

00:37:03.278 --> 00:37:17.067
But when you watch that second one which you probably haven't done, and when you do you will see it I'm on the end crying my eyes out, couldn't cope with it.

00:37:17.067 --> 00:37:25.789
Vulnerable, broken, great for TV.

00:37:25.789 --> 00:37:28.673
Was it good for Andy Woodward?

00:37:28.673 --> 00:37:30.851
That's the question I ask.

00:37:30.851 --> 00:37:53.780
If anybody's to watch it and watch the two episodes, they will see how the media actually actually they do not care about humanity and the effects on those people.

00:37:53.780 --> 00:38:23.211
Even to this day, I've watched the effects it can have on somebody's mental health and that would be a great example to watch, not because of me, or Andy Woodward, or Andy on his own yeah, vulnerable child Andy with a group watching them all who are numb, broken, kind of yeah, we'll do this.

00:38:23.211 --> 00:38:24.072
Kind of yeah, we'll do this.

00:38:24.072 --> 00:38:37.813
And me, on the end, bursting into tears, couldn't cope with it, watching everything in front of him, seeing the others that he hadn't seen since they were children.

00:38:37.813 --> 00:38:39.704
Yeah.

00:38:40.806 --> 00:38:42.552
Oh ouch.

00:38:43.867 --> 00:38:56.954
Going back to it then, when all this happened to you, was you aware that it was happening to other people as well, or did you feel isolated, that you was the only one that was being sexually abused by this person?

00:38:57.784 --> 00:39:05.052
No, and I was reluctant to really go for it on that following day because it was like straight after.

00:39:05.052 --> 00:39:13.106
But I knew, yeah, I knew, I'd seen, seen it, I've witnessed it and I knew of all them.

00:39:13.106 --> 00:39:18.873
I was in the same rumors, I'd seen it.

00:39:18.873 --> 00:39:25.239
But what he chose to do is choose two to start with.

00:39:25.239 --> 00:39:35.869
Yeah, unfortunately for me, one of those left after 16 months or so, and that's when the parents started to ask me loads of questions.

00:39:35.869 --> 00:39:38.369
Are you sure Mike, stop staying now.

00:39:38.369 --> 00:39:46.228
I don't mind saying his name, but stop staying now, are you okay, andy?

00:39:46.228 --> 00:39:47.050
Yeah, I'm fine.

00:39:47.050 --> 00:39:47.552
Do you want, andy?

00:39:47.552 --> 00:39:47.833
Yeah, I'm fine.

00:39:47.833 --> 00:39:49.257
Do you want to go?

00:39:49.257 --> 00:39:49.958
Yeah.

00:39:52.126 --> 00:39:53.793
But I had seen all the others.

00:39:53.793 --> 00:39:59.597
We were in rooms, we were in dorms, we were in any hands and you name it.

00:39:59.597 --> 00:40:10.045
He did that for his own little gratification of touching, but two were the two that pretty much lived with him so there was the option there.

00:40:10.085 --> 00:40:11.349
Your parents, obviously, I mean.

00:40:11.349 --> 00:40:16.371
Had they suspected anything at that time, when they were saying you don't have to, it's up to you?

00:40:16.371 --> 00:40:18.436
How do you think they suspect anything at that point?

00:40:19.485 --> 00:40:34.231
I think they certainly got a feeling of something quite right here, um, but again we've got to try and get our minds to think back to the 80s, yeah, yeah, which is so hard.

00:40:34.231 --> 00:40:47.898
It's so hard to do it because our brain will automatically just go oh, come on, because we picture it how we would picture it yeah, as now, as adults, do you understand that it's so hard to?

00:40:47.918 --> 00:40:51.228
I know I, I you know and my parents.

00:40:51.668 --> 00:41:04.797
Oh what the guilt that they have had to live with is phenomenal yeah, but they know you don't blame them, I'm sure no, no, no, no but they still feel that guilt for it.

00:41:05.085 --> 00:41:06.208
No, can I ask so?

00:41:06.208 --> 00:41:11.409
Even though that your parents was giving you that you don't have to, you continue to go.

00:41:11.409 --> 00:41:26.255
Now, talking about sexual exploitation, perpetrators can often, or sometimes, coerce their victims into doing things because if they don't, there will be consequences.

00:41:26.255 --> 00:41:29.286
Was anything like that pushed onto yourself?

00:41:29.286 --> 00:41:29.427
Was?

00:41:29.427 --> 00:41:34.516
Was it a case of if you don't come to my house, x, y and z could happen?

00:41:34.516 --> 00:41:37.748
Was there any manipulation or fear?

00:41:37.748 --> 00:41:45.893
Because you talked about being fearful, I guess what I'm trying to get into, the mindset of what made you keep going back, despite being sexually abused.

00:41:45.893 --> 00:41:48.498
What was the thing that kept you going back?

00:41:48.498 --> 00:41:52.135
Was it just the idea of I'm Barry Burnell?

00:41:52.135 --> 00:41:54.351
I can make your dreams come true?

00:41:54.351 --> 00:41:59.757
Was that the main enticing point for you to keep going back to him?

00:41:59.757 --> 00:42:01.186
I'd say.

00:42:02.309 --> 00:42:59.336
The main thing that people will identify with this and it's not just in football, it's in relationships is once they've got the power over you that can be a child or adult and you are vulnerable that power then turns into putting you in fear, fear of that relationship, and that fear, and that word fear, is throughout in humanity Domestic abuse, child abuse, abuse from a position of power, relationships, so that fear as a child becomes so much more.

00:42:59.336 --> 00:43:16.791
When a football coach, I can end your dreams Like that yeah, I want to be a footballer, I want to be a swimmer.

00:43:18.831 --> 00:43:19.534
It's the dream, isn't it?

00:43:19.724 --> 00:43:21.949
Relationships Domestically.

00:43:21.949 --> 00:43:24.811
Oh, what about the kids?

00:43:24.811 --> 00:43:26.411
I can't.

00:43:27.989 --> 00:43:44.579
I can't leave him of course, or her talking about everything that you went through, talking about those informative years, looking at previous participants on this podcast and those with substance misuse problems in general.

00:43:44.579 --> 00:43:54.777
Sometimes those that go down the path of drug use, subsequently suffering from addiction, have a trauma, like yourself.

00:43:54.777 --> 00:44:04.635
When did drugs and alcohol start to play a point in your life, and was it used as a coping mechanism of escapism from this trauma?

00:44:06.097 --> 00:44:12.757
Yeah, I'll firstly hit the first point that you said there about a majority of people.

00:44:12.757 --> 00:44:16.791
It's a deep one.

00:44:16.791 --> 00:44:54.539
This Because and people will hopefully see this in themselves A huge percentage of people in this world whether it's see addiction is a big A word, but in humanity what has been given to us is alcohol, drugs, you name it.

00:44:54.539 --> 00:44:56.221
They're out there.

00:44:56.221 --> 00:45:03.135
What everybody will do when they've had a bad day at work ever.

00:45:03.135 --> 00:45:08.309
I'll have a drink, or I'll do this or I'll do this.

00:45:08.309 --> 00:45:20.490
The problem is is they won't step above that level of binge or addiction or whatever, but they will still do that because they can manage that.

00:45:21.860 --> 00:46:05.152
When you've had trauma and 99% of that trauma comes from childhood and relationships we generate as children and as a child, I've met hundreds and hundreds of people that are either homeless addiction to drugs, drink you name it relationships, sexual gambling all those where they say I'm an addict will have had some trauma as a child.

00:46:05.152 --> 00:46:11.289
They didn't choose to have that trauma, it was put on them, it's not their fault.

00:46:11.289 --> 00:46:18.726
And then later down the line, as adults, it's you're an addict, it's your fault.

00:46:18.726 --> 00:46:22.614
Get some help, sort yourself out.

00:46:23.239 --> 00:46:24.385
As if it's as simple as that.

00:46:24.385 --> 00:46:26.403
What's wrong with?

00:46:26.445 --> 00:46:28.706
you Get on with it.

00:46:28.706 --> 00:46:33.791
Huh, what's wrong with you?

00:46:33.791 --> 00:46:34.110
Get on with it?

00:46:34.110 --> 00:46:39.514
And all of those people turn out to be empathic, good-hearted souls.

00:46:39.514 --> 00:46:47.101
They can be on a street, they can be wherever they have empathy, they have heart.

00:46:47.101 --> 00:46:56.547
They still have that energy, but the addiction has been the causation, is a trauma I get it with with this job.

00:46:56.588 --> 00:47:03.581
You know, I've had friends, family, said to me in the past like I don't know you could do that job, I don't know you could work with those people, and it's like, do you know what?

00:47:03.621 --> 00:47:09.262
I'll be honest, those people are good people, yeah, they're good people who bad things have happened to them.

00:47:09.304 --> 00:47:38.288
Yeah, and I think this is the whole point of this podcast really is to listen to the people like yourself who have lived experience of trauma, because I often say this if you put yourself in the position of someone like yourself, yeah, and most myself included couldn't cope with a fraction of the trauma that you've experienced, the fraction of the trauma of what our service users have experienced, yet the idea that they put themselves on a higher pedestal because they don't have addiction problems, and all that tells to me is that you know what.

00:47:38.320 --> 00:47:45.025
You probably had a much better childhood than these people who are struggling now, and I think that's the heartbreaking thing, that's the stigma of it.

00:47:45.025 --> 00:47:53.829
Now, when I walk past a homeless person through the city centre, I don't look at them and think what a waste of space, like some people do.

00:47:53.829 --> 00:48:14.068
The first thing that pops into mind is I wonder what happened to that person, and that's all it is is about having that empathy and that understanding and that curiosity of what brought that person to where they are and, much like yourself, people go through the trauma, they go through the addiction, but they're survivors.

00:48:14.449 --> 00:48:18.648
They're in recovery Absolutely, and not everybody can do that.

00:48:18.648 --> 00:48:20.063
You've done a lot of work on yourself.

00:48:20.063 --> 00:48:29.184
20 years of therapy, yeah, and you can see that when you come in and the confidence and the way you dress and the way you present yourself, it's wonderful to see.

00:48:29.184 --> 00:48:32.704
But I think if I saw you 20 years ago, I'd be looking at a very different person.

00:48:33.086 --> 00:48:33.307
Yeah.

00:48:35.063 --> 00:48:37.088
So that is the point of what we're doing here.

00:48:37.369 --> 00:48:38.492
Yeah, absolutely.

00:48:38.492 --> 00:48:41.905
And there's two falsities as well what you're just talking about there.

00:48:41.905 --> 00:48:51.809
I think the word vulnerability is vulnerable is key to this, because, as a child, we're vulnerable.

00:48:51.809 --> 00:48:53.764
We didn't ask for all this.

00:48:53.764 --> 00:48:56.583
We didn't In humanity.

00:48:56.583 --> 00:48:58.449
We're not born into this world.

00:48:58.449 --> 00:49:00.067
We're born into this world with love.

00:49:00.067 --> 00:49:01.965
What does a mum do?

00:49:01.965 --> 00:49:04.766
Love heart.

00:49:04.766 --> 00:49:18.050
But those paths that we're set on as children, but also we're vulnerable as adults, because that defines us, yeah, and it puts us in that vulnerable position.

00:49:18.050 --> 00:49:30.983
So those that have gone down those roads and paths of, you know, self-medicate, block this out, get it out of my head.

00:49:30.983 --> 00:49:36.021
Yeah, numbs it, it takes it away, it obliterates it, it's destruction.

00:49:36.021 --> 00:49:39.690
We know that, but they're still vulnerable.

00:49:39.690 --> 00:49:41.092
So what do they do?

00:49:41.092 --> 00:49:42.074
They go for help.

00:49:42.074 --> 00:49:45.724
Yeah, help me yeah, and I.

00:49:45.764 --> 00:49:57.047
there's something about that because I think, especially as a man, I think there is that stereotypical view of men don't need help, they sort their own shit out, sort of thing.

00:49:57.047 --> 00:50:05.291
Going back to yourself what age did you blow the whistle on the sexual abuse?

00:50:05.291 --> 00:50:06.134
How old was you?

00:50:07.059 --> 00:50:08.666
I was 43.

00:50:08.666 --> 00:50:09.188
43.

00:50:10.681 --> 00:50:15.012
So 33 years, from the age of 10 to where you was, where your whistle blew.

00:50:15.012 --> 00:50:23.507
Can I ask why did it take so long to blow the whistle, to be open about that abuse?

00:50:23.507 --> 00:50:27.891
Because, as we've just said then, was it to do with this?

00:50:27.891 --> 00:50:31.250
I can't show vulnerability, I can't show weakness.

00:50:31.250 --> 00:50:33.527
Was it about the football industry in itself?

00:50:33.527 --> 00:50:36.505
What was it that took?

00:50:36.505 --> 00:50:38.266
What was the reason why it took so long?

00:50:38.266 --> 00:50:42.251
And why at 43?

00:50:43.942 --> 00:50:45.527
It's called a journey of life.

00:50:45.527 --> 00:50:49.989
My journey was this journey.

00:50:49.989 --> 00:50:55.121
I went through everything that I just talked about there.

00:50:55.121 --> 00:50:57.346
I was vulnerable as a child.

00:50:57.346 --> 00:51:09.612
I experienced that he ended up getting really deeply into my family, my sister Engaged in a relationship with her.

00:51:09.612 --> 00:51:14.733
I couldn't get out.

00:51:14.733 --> 00:51:16.605
There was no out for me.

00:51:16.605 --> 00:51:18.128
Football was my life.

00:51:18.128 --> 00:51:22.940
I ended up in that.

00:51:22.940 --> 00:51:28.172
I always say the ring fence of football Protected.

00:51:28.172 --> 00:51:31.769
It's a bit like the castle and the moat.

00:51:31.769 --> 00:51:51.039
Very hard when you're in there to get out because some people you've seen managers that are old, old, old, old, old stay in that insular protection they think they are protected by because it's the most powerful sport in the world.

00:51:51.039 --> 00:51:54.072
It's a ring fence, it's a fortress, isn't it?

00:51:54.251 --> 00:51:54.954
oh, you've got it.

00:51:54.954 --> 00:51:56.119
I like that fortress.

00:51:56.847 --> 00:52:00.449
Their fortress, football is FIFA, fa.

00:52:00.449 --> 00:52:05.985
It's hard once you're in it.

00:52:05.985 --> 00:52:11.706
It's hard then I come out of that and what do I do?

00:52:11.706 --> 00:52:27.851
So link up with what I talked about about vulnerability as a child experiencing something so bad, whether it's mother and father beating them up, physical abuse, emotional abuse, sexual abuse, whatever abuse.

00:52:27.851 --> 00:52:35.349
Some people don't have it as much, but it can trigger them later in life.

00:52:35.349 --> 00:52:38.626
So what I did to contain that?

00:52:38.626 --> 00:52:49.467
I wanted to help others, so I applied football's gone, panic disorder, lost my football, I'm out.

00:52:49.467 --> 00:52:51.672
I'm out of it.

00:52:51.672 --> 00:52:54.304
Why didn't I do it then?

00:52:54.304 --> 00:53:03.092
Nah, I want to help people, so I applied for the police, the fire service, prison service.

00:53:03.092 --> 00:53:06.887
Ah, I can help people.

00:53:06.887 --> 00:53:09.407
I was getting a lot of pressure off my ex-wife.

00:53:09.407 --> 00:53:15.568
You need to earn a living, very volatile, controlling relationships, because that's all I knew.

00:53:16.369 --> 00:53:16.971
That's all I knew.

00:53:17.572 --> 00:53:23.086
Being controlled, you know, and those people that have probably gone through that path of life and they've kind of gone.

00:53:23.086 --> 00:53:24.822
Why do I keep?

00:53:24.822 --> 00:53:26.789
This is another, I'll go back to it.

00:53:26.789 --> 00:53:29.146
But they'll say why is it?

00:53:29.146 --> 00:53:32.925
I'm a nice person, I've been through so much.

00:53:32.925 --> 00:53:40.407
Why is it I attract these horrible people, these horrible men or women that just take advantage of me?

00:53:40.407 --> 00:53:41.925
Why do I always attract them?

00:53:41.925 --> 00:53:46.411
Because we're vulnerable, because we're empaths, because they see it.

00:53:47.021 --> 00:53:48.166
And they're dead nice at first.

00:53:48.800 --> 00:53:52.789
Oh no, they turn when they've got, yeah, petition of power, petition of trust.

00:53:52.789 --> 00:53:54.626
But that's another story.

00:53:54.820 --> 00:53:55.943
No, no, no, but it's true, isn't it?

00:53:55.943 --> 00:53:57.126
It all links into your experiences.

00:53:57.126 --> 00:53:59.052
It all links into humanity.

00:53:59.760 --> 00:54:02.809
So this journey that I went on was about helping.

00:54:02.809 --> 00:54:08.784
First, at the time I didn't know, but it was about helping people, so I'd got in all three.

00:54:08.784 --> 00:54:12.315
I it was about helping people, so I'd got in all three.

00:54:12.315 --> 00:54:13.298
I wanted to do that.

00:54:13.298 --> 00:54:24.865
So those people that don't really, or may have had events as children will also, may not have gone down the path of addiction, may not have gone down the path of, you know, destroying their lives, but they will go.

00:54:24.865 --> 00:54:25.829
Do you know what?

00:54:25.829 --> 00:54:26.181
I want?

00:54:26.181 --> 00:54:27.768
To go into helping people.

00:54:27.768 --> 00:54:36.804
So what I want to do is I'll go into NHS, I'll be a nurse, I'll be a practitioner, I want to be a doctor, I want to help people.

00:54:36.804 --> 00:54:42.309
Prison service I'll do a service to help those prisoners that have gone in there.

00:54:42.309 --> 00:54:50.925
Maybe I can help them offend a manager or whatever, but they're doing that from their past, you see, because they're empaths and they want to help people.

00:54:51.907 --> 00:54:52.389
I get that yeah.

00:54:52.989 --> 00:55:02.224
But in all those institutes there's some bad ones in there, Of course, yeah, but the good ones they actually do that from heart.

00:55:02.244 --> 00:55:04.449
So you see that analogy, you see how that all crosses over.

00:55:04.829 --> 00:55:12.922
So that's the path that I went down, so to take that longevity out there.

00:55:12.922 --> 00:55:13.983
Why did it take till I was 43?

00:55:13.983 --> 00:55:16.728
Because I did 13 years in the police and that was an education for me.

00:55:16.728 --> 00:55:19.213
I see my path, I see my past.

00:55:19.213 --> 00:55:21.242
I saw everything in there.

00:55:21.242 --> 00:55:29.731
I I went for crew in 2003, silently, because I thought this needs to stop.

00:55:29.731 --> 00:55:31.835
So I claimed against Crewe.

00:55:31.835 --> 00:55:33.297
And guess what happened?

00:55:33.297 --> 00:55:40.014
On the day of the claim in the civil court, the judge got changed.

00:55:40.014 --> 00:55:41.684
And this gets deep.

00:55:41.684 --> 00:55:44.686
But I'm not going to go into it and guess what happened.

00:55:44.686 --> 00:55:47.864
Four barristers to my one.

00:55:47.864 --> 00:55:52.514
My barrister said done deal, everything's there.

00:55:52.514 --> 00:56:00.068
They can pay you out, you can have a bit of money and live your life Great, but I want it to be there.

00:56:00.068 --> 00:56:01.512
Hold on a minute.

00:56:01.512 --> 00:56:03.945
I'm a police officer, but it can get out.

00:56:03.945 --> 00:56:08.028
Shut down, case over, go back to being a police officer.

00:56:08.028 --> 00:56:09.746
The judge changed on that day.

00:56:11.981 --> 00:56:12.202
To this day.

00:56:12.202 --> 00:56:13.987
I don't know, but did you get any financial compensation?

00:56:13.987 --> 00:56:15.190
No, no, nothing, yeah done.

00:56:15.431 --> 00:56:21.010
Yeah, they all high-fiving each other in the court and people in humanity.

00:56:21.010 --> 00:56:25.202
You see now people coming up and going, judges making decisions.

00:56:25.202 --> 00:56:27.467
What happened?

00:56:27.467 --> 00:56:29.192
But it did happen.

00:56:29.192 --> 00:56:30.434
So so I tried that.

00:56:30.434 --> 00:56:32.784
You see, yeah, yeah, yeah, 13 years in the police.

00:56:32.784 --> 00:56:36.545
They then got me said why did you go and see Barry Bunnell in prison?

00:56:36.545 --> 00:56:40.969
Because of this, right, we'll protect you, andy, in the police.

00:56:40.969 --> 00:56:43.047
You've been through so much trauma.

00:56:43.047 --> 00:56:45.487
You won't have to deal with any sex cases.

00:56:45.487 --> 00:56:46.945
You won't have to deal with this.

00:56:46.945 --> 00:56:51.469
Career goes on 13 years in.

00:56:51.469 --> 00:56:55.860
Just before that.

00:56:55.900 --> 00:56:57.001
Gary Speed's death.

00:56:57.001 --> 00:57:01.626
I did an article in the magazine Whoa In front of the big bosses.

00:57:01.626 --> 00:57:03.768
What's going on here, Andy?

00:57:03.768 --> 00:57:10.036
I told them I was sinking, going under, because that really took me to suicide.

00:57:10.036 --> 00:57:10.416
Yeah.

00:57:11.119 --> 00:57:20.202
Within 18 months I was gone, sacked Bull Bit of beacons here.

00:57:20.202 --> 00:57:32.170
Yeah, why, why, andy, why, Whoa, that's fine Therapy along the way and all that a of help.

00:57:32.170 --> 00:57:37.724
And I'm lucky, I'm lucky those people are watching this and I'll look at the camera.

00:57:37.724 --> 00:57:42.320
They haven't got that luxury, but they should have.

00:57:42.320 --> 00:57:46.067
They should have, but yeah.

00:57:46.067 --> 00:57:47.849
So I'd had loads of therapy.

00:57:47.849 --> 00:57:49.050
43.

00:57:49.050 --> 00:57:51.315
I've had enough of this.

00:57:51.315 --> 00:57:53.567
I've had enough of you lot.

00:57:53.567 --> 00:57:55.646
I've had enough of football.

00:57:55.646 --> 00:57:58.389
I've had enough of what's happened to me in my life.

00:57:58.389 --> 00:58:01.545
I want to talk about it.

00:58:01.545 --> 00:58:02.885
And all I did.

00:58:02.885 --> 00:58:07.820
It was ironic how it happened, because my therapist had said write it down, andy.

00:58:07.820 --> 00:58:12.612
This is like a horror movie, a full Netflix thing whatever.

00:58:12.980 --> 00:58:23.130
Because I talked about the past and previous and I met James Bentley from Barry and he said I know Danny Taylor, he's written a book.

00:58:23.130 --> 00:58:25.789
And then Danny came and it was just like boom.

00:58:27.061 --> 00:58:34.588
So that's why, that's why it's corruption at all levels in your experience?

00:58:34.588 --> 00:58:40.208
I'm guessing yeah, and it just goes to show that you know trying to do things properly, professionally, as you did.

00:58:40.208 --> 00:58:44.170
This is why you've got a whistleblower.

00:58:44.340 --> 00:58:46.039
This is what took you to that point, I'm guessing.

00:58:46.139 --> 00:58:47.286
And I'm not perfect.

00:58:47.286 --> 00:58:49.693
I've made massive mistakes in my life.

00:58:49.693 --> 00:58:51.382
I've been married four times.

00:58:51.382 --> 00:58:53.367
I've got five children again.

00:58:53.367 --> 00:58:56.576
All the destruction of a past.

00:58:56.576 --> 00:59:00.664
Yeah, not an excuse, because we have free will.

00:59:00.664 --> 00:59:02.528
There's a thing called free will.

00:59:02.528 --> 00:59:05.074
We choose our own path in some ways.

00:59:05.074 --> 00:59:20.231
But there's also there's the past of the dark, because I, I go light and dark and sometimes people and in like situations can take us down a dark path.

00:59:20.231 --> 00:59:48.333
Yeah, that we don't want to go down, we don't, but it does take us there and I've made many mistakes in life, but accepting them, owning them and then coming back aligning in the in the victoria day excuse me, in the victoria day for sure interview, she asked you about your sister and her relationship with barry bunnell as well.

00:59:49.021 --> 00:59:51.447
At the time of that interview you said you didn't want to discuss it.

00:59:51.829 --> 00:59:53.280
And completely understandable Live.

00:59:53.320 --> 00:59:53.521
TV.

00:59:53.521 --> 00:59:53.981
You know.

00:59:53.981 --> 00:59:58.021
You said then about being put on the spot it was a low baller, it was, yeah, I mean.

00:59:58.021 --> 00:59:59.987
I'm guessing you weren't expecting that question to come up.

00:59:59.987 --> 01:00:08.009
No, talk to me about that then, because, talking about abuse, as you've said earlier, they found a way in.

01:00:08.009 --> 01:00:12.525
They found a way in with your mum and dad.

01:00:12.525 --> 01:00:13.853
Yeah, yeah, and it's part of the reason why he?

01:00:13.853 --> 01:00:15.059
Was in your life for so long.

01:00:15.059 --> 01:00:20.590
Talk to me about that relationship, and I mean because I guess you know he's a paedophile.

01:00:21.271 --> 01:00:21.431
Yeah.

01:00:21.539 --> 01:00:23.826
You know sexual interest in young boys?

01:00:23.826 --> 01:00:29.342
Yeah, marrying your sister, mm-hmm, do you feel like I mean?

01:00:29.342 --> 01:00:30.443
Was your sister groomed?

01:00:30.443 --> 01:00:31.505
Was she older than you?

01:00:31.525 --> 01:00:41.554
Yeah, talk to him about that entire process if you're comfortable in doing so now, Of course and some people will resonate with that, because I always do a quick check- Mm.

01:00:41.554 --> 01:00:43.657
As you see them a lot.

01:00:43.657 --> 01:00:47.722
Well, I am what I am now and I hope people sort of like see this.

01:00:47.722 --> 01:00:51.806
Mm, I hope people sort of like see this and invite them and want to inspire people.

01:00:51.806 --> 01:00:57.233
But as a child, you know part of his process.

01:00:57.233 --> 01:01:09.384
I don't want to go into too much detail, but I've since found out that there was a couple of other lads, a few.

01:01:09.403 --> 01:01:24.659
A few are no longer with us, God bless them, but their sisters were also targeted the same pattern.

01:01:24.659 --> 01:01:44.014
Now I've done a lot of reflection and this was part of his MO, as they say, part of what he did, Because once he got that far into the family he would use Target the sister in the relationship.

01:01:44.014 --> 01:01:48.891
So he'd even go to that length to actually see if they got a sister.

01:01:57.340 --> 01:01:59.585
That's a pawn in his game of chess.

01:01:59.585 --> 01:02:00.967
So we revert to game of chess.

01:02:00.967 --> 01:02:04.054
He's the.

01:02:04.054 --> 01:02:10.572
He's not just the king, he's a king and queen he knows every move and he can move here, there and everywhere.

01:02:10.572 --> 01:02:19.791
But the poor pawn was my sister and the reason she was because it's a great smoke screen.

01:02:19.791 --> 01:02:31.885
Using a human being for that purpose is beyond cruel and my sister never spoke about it.

01:02:31.885 --> 01:02:36.286
It and we never spoke about it, but it's been a journey.

01:02:36.726 --> 01:02:48.306
it's been a journey with my sister because I imagine she's going through a lot herself in terms of that trauma and and I'm guessing she was completely unaware of what what he had done to you yeah, is she your.

01:02:48.326 --> 01:02:49.528
She your older sister, younger sister.

01:02:49.548 --> 01:02:50.751
Yeah, she's my older sister.

01:02:50.751 --> 01:02:53.369
What was the age gap between your sister and 18 months?

01:02:53.369 --> 01:03:03.650
Okay, oh, so they're quite close to yeah, okay, so I thought, with it being a sister, I thought they'd been a much older, younger relationship, so quite close to each other.

01:03:03.670 --> 01:03:16.586
She was a child, okay, and what's significant about this?

01:03:16.586 --> 01:03:19.199
About a responsibility as organizations that are supposed to be there to protect.

01:03:19.199 --> 01:03:32.318
She gave a statement as a female in 1998 to the police about what he'd done to her.

01:03:32.318 --> 01:03:32.719
I gave a statement.

01:03:32.719 --> 01:03:40.851
A group of boys she gave a statement on her own as a female, to say what he'd done to her.

01:03:40.851 --> 01:03:44.887
Yeah, and guess what happened to her statement?

01:03:45.739 --> 01:03:47.545
Disregarded or taken serious.

01:03:47.865 --> 01:03:48.487
In a drawer.

01:03:48.487 --> 01:03:49.831
Okay, gone away.

01:03:49.831 --> 01:03:52.387
Yeah, she never got justice, okay.

01:03:53.661 --> 01:03:56.449
When I say age gap, I mean the age gap between Barry and your sister.

01:03:56.449 --> 01:03:57.664
What's the age gap between them two?

01:03:58.101 --> 01:03:59.139
Well, the same as mine.

01:03:59.139 --> 01:04:02.809
So Ben-El was the same age as my mum.

01:04:02.809 --> 01:04:05.056
Okay, yeah, born in 52.

01:04:05.518 --> 01:04:07.963
So at that time, so she was significantly younger than him.

01:04:07.963 --> 01:04:09.949
Oh yeah, ah see, yeah, that's what I was.

01:04:09.949 --> 01:04:10.710
She was 14.

01:04:10.710 --> 01:04:13.704
So she was groomed as well, then.

01:04:14.067 --> 01:04:19.108
Yes, and the definition of rape.

01:04:19.108 --> 01:04:19.811
She was raped.

01:04:19.811 --> 01:04:24.782
She reported that back then and God bless her.

01:04:24.782 --> 01:04:35.536
She's had to live this and be quiet and silent and not say anything and live with that burden.

01:04:35.536 --> 01:04:37.164
She's also.

01:04:37.164 --> 01:04:46.367
She had two children with him okay I've got a nephew and niece, my beautiful souls in the world yeah they know what he is.

01:04:47.469 --> 01:04:54.043
They've had troubles the pair of them because the knock-on effects, the ripple effects, but they're great.

01:04:54.043 --> 01:04:58.610
My nephews had issues, but he's great now.

01:04:58.610 --> 01:05:02.295
This story and, oh, it's magnitude of it.

01:05:02.295 --> 01:05:06.865
The ripple effect, yeah, but my sister's had to go through all that so.

01:05:06.865 --> 01:05:14.416
So what we did was, when I broke the story in 2016, she was a bit like these people that go, not accepting this.

01:05:14.416 --> 01:05:18.726
She had not attacked me, but she was protecting herself.

01:05:18.726 --> 01:05:21.748
Oh no, oh no, andy.

01:05:21.748 --> 01:05:22.250
Yeah.

01:05:22.994 --> 01:05:42.831
So we, we distant, and then we've come back in a full circle and we are like, because for her children as well, you know, I suppose it's the truth of the matter, but they have to grow up knowing their father was a monster, absolutely, and that's going to be difficult for them to be growing up.

01:05:42.831 --> 01:05:45.586
Absolutely, and you said earlier about DNA.

01:05:45.606 --> 01:05:49.309
Yeah, you talked about his cousin and what he'd done to your aunt.

01:05:49.309 --> 01:05:57.550
I mean, I'm not going, not gonna, you know, put put words into their mouth, but there could be that almost fear of what is that?

01:05:57.550 --> 01:06:00.525
Yes, what if that's in me, do you know what I mean?

01:06:00.525 --> 01:06:06.639
All these questions that they're going to be experiencing so I understand why your sister would want to protect them as much as possible.

01:06:06.880 --> 01:06:17.925
You have a duty to naturally say what you said because, as well as yourself, it turned out that there was 80, 80 boys I think that was recorded that had been abused by him.

01:06:17.925 --> 01:06:18.626
Is that correct?

01:06:18.967 --> 01:06:20.108
Oh, no More.

01:06:20.108 --> 01:06:21.271
Oh, I've got, I've got.

01:06:21.271 --> 01:06:22.414
Yeah, oh, yeah.

01:06:22.414 --> 01:06:25.164
And you know what?

01:06:25.164 --> 01:06:34.150
They made a decision to run a trial on 12 adults, and of those 12 adults, they said it would be the most serious.

01:06:34.150 --> 01:06:39.304
So you can see my tone when we use our voice.

01:06:39.304 --> 01:06:41.791
It's like music vibration.

01:06:41.791 --> 01:06:48.911
My tone changed there and the reason it changed is because this is wrong.

01:06:48.911 --> 01:06:51.123
And the reason it changed is because this is wrong.

01:06:51.123 --> 01:06:56.672
12 boys, they said it was going to be two cases.

01:06:56.672 --> 01:06:59.822
One case 12.

01:07:00.806 --> 01:07:02.210
The most serious offences.

01:07:02.210 --> 01:07:08.702
They chose the lads that had come out in the media Interesting.

01:07:08.702 --> 01:07:14.108
And the second case I think they got down to.

01:07:14.108 --> 01:07:17.630
I think by the length of time it took to do the second one.

01:07:17.630 --> 01:07:19.833
Everyone had dropped out bar two.

01:07:19.833 --> 01:07:24.601
Too long, too much trauma, too much.

01:07:24.601 --> 01:07:31.199
There was in excess, I think, about 190 odd Jesus.

01:07:31.199 --> 01:07:33.182
Where's their justice?

01:07:33.182 --> 01:07:35.186
Yeah, come on system.

01:07:35.186 --> 01:07:40.815
Yet in America you got tried and got so many life sentences.

01:07:40.815 --> 01:07:57.088
Yeah, yet they all those victims.

01:07:57.108 --> 01:08:00.755
Yet there's been other cases where there's been multiple, multiple victims of cases that have ran and gone to court.

01:08:00.755 --> 01:08:01.235
They said 12.

01:08:01.235 --> 01:08:02.217
Come on, what about those victims?

01:08:02.217 --> 01:08:12.851
It really was a monster, and when I say this, I mean there's so much emphasis on perpetrators like Jimmy Savile because of who he was in the media.

01:08:12.851 --> 01:08:14.786
Yeah, yeah, but I'm surprised that learning about barry bunnell.

01:08:14.728 --> 01:08:17.399
Today is the first time that I I've heard of him, based on looking at your story prior to this, this interview.

01:08:17.399 --> 01:08:22.944
Yeah, this was the first time I've heard of him and it might be the first time that some of our listeners have heard of him as well.

01:08:22.944 --> 01:08:25.533
I feel like everybody.

01:08:25.533 --> 01:08:28.762
Everybody should know who this person is based on what he's done.

01:08:28.762 --> 01:08:35.539
But, as you've said, they've taken a very small amount of cases from the media and ironically, it's the ones that got media attention.

01:08:35.980 --> 01:08:37.405
Of course, where is the justice?

01:08:37.405 --> 01:08:38.831
Where for all these people?

01:08:38.831 --> 01:08:55.175
And almost to the point of, it's not not just the amount of people, even if he, even if he'd ribs the 190 boys once horrendous, but if it was with you, 300 times how many were these others?

01:08:55.175 --> 01:08:56.921
This is constant.

01:08:56.921 --> 01:09:00.068
That man was offending at least daily.

01:09:00.068 --> 01:09:04.502
To be able to do what he did in the time he did it, he must have been offending daily.

01:09:04.502 --> 01:09:11.974
I am surprised that this person isn't front page of everything and is a star commander.

01:09:11.974 --> 01:09:13.422
And you said about the position of trust.

01:09:13.422 --> 01:09:30.551
He should be the, the poster boy and the case in point of what position of trust is and how it can be manipulated, and I just found it ridiculous that again I'm learning about this person and the atrocities that he's committed for the first time today.

01:09:30.912 --> 01:09:33.729
Yeah, I mean, like I said, it was global.

01:09:33.729 --> 01:09:35.126
I've done every magazine.

01:09:35.742 --> 01:09:39.988
I'm sure, yeah, but it goes back to the media being a flash in the pan.

01:09:39.988 --> 01:09:40.911
You've got it.

01:09:41.560 --> 01:09:42.625
And then you've got it.

01:09:42.625 --> 01:09:43.427
You've got it.

01:09:43.427 --> 01:09:47.871
And the other thing as well is what I want to really sort of highlight.

01:09:47.871 --> 01:09:53.641
There are 180, 90 that have put pen to paper that there could.

01:09:53.641 --> 01:10:02.667
There could be much more, oh, industrial scale, because he also had links to, um private schools.

01:10:02.667 --> 01:10:05.814
How did he have links to private schools?

01:10:05.814 --> 01:10:19.000
How did he have the authority just to walk into these dorms and leave me in a car for an hour and a half with no gaming things, just steamed up windows a few days a week to different?

01:10:19.000 --> 01:10:22.128
Well, it's a bit like jimmy saville, isn't it?

01:10:22.128 --> 01:10:27.403
How did he get these authorities to go in to hospitals and private schools?

01:10:27.403 --> 01:10:28.666
Who's behind that?

01:10:28.666 --> 01:10:30.309
Yeah, who's a part of that?

01:10:31.171 --> 01:10:37.908
Oh, one day I'll I will talk deep, I'll do a deep dive into this, but it does.

01:10:37.908 --> 01:10:42.280
It does highlight that you know and you I'll.

01:10:42.280 --> 01:11:11.970
I'll take it back on that balance that you were talking about before, about about my nephew and about how he must feel, about the DNA and the fear and the fear of probably millions around the world that have gone through these processes and the ripple effects and the harm that it does, and the worry is it in my DNA Because my brother or sister or uncle.

01:11:11.970 --> 01:11:22.212
They're monsters, you know, but it's difficult that they find that.

01:11:22.212 --> 01:11:38.752
But he's been able to come through that and he's on the other side of that now and he's had a journey to go on Journey being the key point of what we've we've talking about today, looking at your recovery and how you've rebuilt yourself.

01:11:41.060 --> 01:11:47.863
Talk to me about what recovery looks like for you today wow, what a journey.

01:11:49.104 --> 01:11:52.947
So when we talk about recovery.

01:11:52.947 --> 01:12:05.273
So you asked about did I go down a road of alcohol or did I choose those self?

01:12:05.273 --> 01:12:17.238
So the football because I was so focused on not giving in a warrior type, I need to be a footballer.

01:12:17.238 --> 01:12:17.918
Blah, blah, blah.

01:12:17.918 --> 01:12:27.190
I lost my football and then I went straight into the police very strict kind of institute.

01:12:27.190 --> 01:12:29.755
So in some ways I was lucky.

01:12:29.814 --> 01:12:39.787
I had escaped it until a period in the police when I started getting really thrown heavily when they said they'd protect me.

01:12:39.787 --> 01:12:44.041
They put me on every sex case that you can think of.

01:12:44.041 --> 01:12:47.500
After Gary Speed took his life, I went.

01:12:47.500 --> 01:12:53.207
Then it was I need something to null this.

01:12:53.207 --> 01:12:55.011
Null this pain.

01:12:55.492 --> 01:13:08.627
Because I'm sat in a booth watching for eight hours a day pedophilia videos, jesus, and you think about a duty of care they had, knowing you'd been that, what you'd been.

01:13:08.627 --> 01:13:24.564
I've been through all that, knowing that I'd done that magazine article about gary speed, knowing my vulnerability and then throwing all the files kept coming at me and because I'm a yes person, yeah, I'll do that, yeah, I'll do that.

01:13:24.564 --> 01:13:35.715
So it was not until then that that poison alcohol got me, and that was probably 2013.

01:13:35.715 --> 01:13:39.020
So I'd escaped it because of those reasons.

01:13:39.020 --> 01:13:43.604
But when my my french.

01:13:43.604 --> 01:13:47.988
But when the shit hit the fan there, yeah, what did I go to?

01:13:47.988 --> 01:14:04.828
Yeah, I picked up and I was a drink I drank before but I didn't have, I didn't binge because I had to be like football.

01:14:04.828 --> 01:14:08.671
Yeah, police, police, they don't.

01:14:08.671 --> 01:14:11.956
Some in football went down that road and yeah.

01:14:14.341 --> 01:14:19.849
When they finished the football straight on that, because you feel like you've lost your life when you come out of that.

01:14:19.849 --> 01:14:29.390
What we talked about the fortress yeah, cause it is a fortress no protection afterwards yeah, so mine was later on and I went on a journey then.

01:14:29.390 --> 01:14:45.979
So when I broke the story in 2016 previous to that I'd been binging and I hit it hard, which I'd probably save for another because there's another.

01:14:46.546 --> 01:14:49.185
There's another story we could talk about this for hours.

01:14:49.225 --> 01:15:08.304
Realistically, there's another story about how I lost my job, which is powerful, but I'd gone into this binge, binge, binge binge and I was going right okay, give it a rest when I had my therapy before I broke the story.

01:15:08.304 --> 01:15:13.367
The therapy helped me, but I'd gone through all this globally.

01:15:13.367 --> 01:15:23.452
I was invited by Pele you know everything's like and you say to me how did you have all of that?

01:15:23.452 --> 01:15:30.935
And then now Andy Woodward has been silenced for four years, five years, whatever.

01:15:30.935 --> 01:15:33.275
There's a reason behind that as well.

01:15:33.275 --> 01:15:49.622
But when I was there and Pele had invited me and Pele, my idol, the pinnacle of football- the pinnacle of football says Andy, come to Santos Now.

01:15:50.024 --> 01:16:08.810
If that isn't as powerful as it comes in football, the greatest footballer of all time not only invites me, not only invites me, tells me to come to his museum, and Gordon Taylor knew it at the PFA.

01:16:08.810 --> 01:16:13.444
Fifa were told about it, fifa were told about it, the FA were told about it.

01:16:13.444 --> 01:16:14.987
Can you help?

01:16:14.987 --> 01:16:16.751
This is me.

01:16:16.751 --> 01:16:17.632
Can you help me?

01:16:17.632 --> 01:16:19.543
Do you want to be a part of this?

01:16:19.543 --> 01:16:21.588
It's great for you, andy.

01:16:21.588 --> 01:16:22.331
No, thank you.

01:16:23.780 --> 01:16:25.948
So Sky News, come out, I do this.

01:16:25.948 --> 01:16:27.864
Go into Santos.

01:16:27.864 --> 01:16:32.069
The museum, all live TVs, everything.

01:16:32.069 --> 01:16:40.072
Andy Woodward's here and his 58 World Cup players were there to see me.

01:16:40.072 --> 01:16:42.765
I got no ego.

01:16:42.765 --> 01:16:54.592
I was so grateful and I was like, wow, but I was there for a purpose, on my journey to help the children.

01:16:54.592 --> 01:17:01.671
So I did my public speaking, I went to these meetings and it changed the law for children.

01:17:01.671 --> 01:17:06.625
Job done for me, wow, what a proud moment.

01:17:06.625 --> 01:17:16.512
But I was there To probably 18 months later, two years later, making a film the BBC promised to do.

01:17:16.512 --> 01:17:25.381
You know, floodlights, it's going to be ace, we're going to put it out to the world On.

01:17:25.381 --> 01:17:28.448
That journey took me to the darkest places.

01:17:28.448 --> 01:17:36.440
The darkest, I mean dark.

01:17:36.501 --> 01:17:45.121
Imagine I'm on the park where I was a child and I used to go to that park of safety for me yeah when he was doing what he was doing.

01:17:45.121 --> 01:17:49.328
I would return back to that park, because that's what we also do.

01:17:49.328 --> 01:17:56.386
I'm sat there with two bottles of cider oh no job.

01:17:56.386 --> 01:18:02.166
I've been silenced, I've been destroyed, I've been taken out.

01:18:02.166 --> 01:18:03.706
Why have you done this to me?

01:18:03.706 --> 01:18:05.586
All I wanted to do was help.

01:18:05.586 --> 01:18:08.028
All I wanted to do was be a part of you.

01:18:08.028 --> 01:18:10.307
All I wanted to do was safeguard children.

01:18:10.307 --> 01:18:12.322
Why have you?

01:18:12.342 --> 01:18:20.068
put me here and I took a phone call off the producer from the bbc, andy, there's going to be another delay.

01:18:20.068 --> 01:18:21.069
I'm really sorry.

01:18:21.069 --> 01:18:22.533
We'll come back to you.

01:18:22.533 --> 01:18:28.729
Cry my eyes out on the phone to them.

01:18:28.729 --> 01:18:31.074
Please help me.

01:18:31.074 --> 01:18:34.868
I am at my lowest point.

01:18:34.868 --> 01:18:36.967
I don't want to be here anymore.

01:18:36.967 --> 01:18:38.842
He's turned around.

01:18:38.842 --> 01:18:41.390
Don't worry, andy, you'll be all right.

01:18:41.390 --> 01:18:46.025
I went missing.

01:18:46.025 --> 01:18:50.610
I went down the road and lay on a railway track.

01:18:50.610 --> 01:18:56.152
I waited half an hour for a train to take me out.

01:18:57.740 --> 01:19:02.788
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01:19:02.788 --> 01:19:05.539
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