Dec. 5, 2025

Alcohol, Relapse, Women’s Recovery Spaces & Breaking Generational Patterns

Alcohol, Relapse, Women’s Recovery Spaces & Breaking Generational Patterns
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Alcohol, Relapse, Women’s Recovery Spaces & Breaking Generational Patterns
Alcohol, Relapse, Women’s Recovery Spaces & Breaking Generational Patterns
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Season 1

In this episode of Believe in People: Addiction, Recovery & Stigma, Patti reflects on a lifetime shaped by silence, trauma, and survival. Growing up in a dysfunctional home in 1970s San Francisco - marked by alcoholism, emotional neglect, and parents who barely spoke - she began using alcohol and drugs at just 13 to escape overwhelming pain. By 16 she had lost her mother to alcoholism, a loss that profoundly shaped her understanding of addiction, identity, and generational trauma.

Patti shares candidly about early experiences with hallucinogens during the counterculture era, the years she spent bartending in Alaska amid heavy cocaine use, and the moment she chose life over self-destruction. She describes the powerful impact of her first women-only 12-step meeting, the birth of long-term sobriety, and the choice to get clean before having children so she would never repeat the patterns she grew up with.

After nearly 13 years in recovery, Patti later faced relapse - driven by disconnection, loss of community, motherhood identity shifts, and the seductive “yummy mummy” drinking culture. She unpacks how secrecy, co-dependency, and convincing self-talk sustained her relapse, and the moments that finally brought clarity: writing her first book while still drinking, confronting her own hypocrisy, and acknowledging that recovery requires honesty, therapy, and belonging - not just abstinence.

Together, Patti and Matt explore the deeper roots of addiction: trauma, loneliness, the search for meaning, and the societal and gendered pressures that shape women’s drinking. Patti critiques patriarchal elements of traditional 12-step structures, highlights the importance of women-centred spaces, and explains why she has gone on to start recovery groups in New Zealand, Portugal, and beyond.

This is a rich and layered conversation about breaking generational cycles, redefining identity in motherhood, and building a recovery community grounded in compassion, inclusion, and truth.

In this episode:

  • Growing up in silence, emotional neglect and an alcoholic home
  • Early use of alcohol, speed and acid from age 13
  • Hallucinogens in 1970s San Francisco drug culture
  • Losing her mother to alcoholism at 16
  • Bartending in Alaska, cocaine use, and the “f

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Browse the full archive at 👉 www.believeinpeoplepodcast.com

This podcast is a toolkit for recovery & resilience. Whether you’re in recovery or seeking to understand addiction, there’s something here for everyone.

If you want to change your direction, grow as a person, and live life to its full potential, Change Grow Live is here to help you. We’re here for you if you need help with challenges including drugs or alcohol, trouble with housing, domestic abuse, or your mental and physical wellbeing. Change Grow Live services are free and confidential. Click the link below to refer yourself to your local service.

https://www.changegrowlive.org/local-support/find-a-service

📩 Podcast Contact: robbie@believeinpeoplepodcast.com
🎵 Music: “Jonathan Tortoise” by Christopher Tait (Belle Ghoul / Electric Six)

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...

00:00 - Setting The Stage: Meet Patty

00:55 - First Drinks At Thirteen

03:35 - Inside A Silent Alcoholic Home

07:32 - Numbing With Speed And Acid

12:24 - Trauma, Curfews, And Being Unmissed

18:04 - Alaska Fork In The Road

25:12 - Choosing Recovery Before Thirty

30:08 - The Power Of Women’s Rooms

34:44 - Moving, Losing Connection, Slipping

38:25 - The Motherhood Void And Wine Culture

43:24 - Red Flags, Deals, And Denial

47:12 - Purpose, Writing, And Hypocrisy Shock

50:12 - Rebuilding Through Women‑Centred Meetings

54:20 - Addiction Is Addiction: Broadening The Room

58:28 - Roots Of Harm: Trauma And Meaning

01:02:05 - Alcohol Marketing And Women’s Health

01:06:30 - Finding People, Not Just Program

01:11:00 - Closing Reflections And Quickfire

WEBVTT

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This is a renew original recording.

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Hello and welcome to Believe in People, a two-time Radio Academy Award nominated and British Podcast award-winning series about all things addiction, recovery, and stigma.

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My name is Matthew Butler, and I'm your host, or as Alex said, your facilitator.

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In this episode, I sit down with Patty, who reflects on growing up at a silent and alcoholic home in 1970s San Francisco.

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Turning to alcohol and drugs in her early teens to escape emotional pain, losing her mother at 16, getting sober just before effective birthday to break generational patterns, and later facing relapse after nearly 13 years in recovery.

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Patty reflects on a lifetime shaped by trauma, silence, and survival.

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Our conversation explores emotional neglect, hallucogens in 1970s drug culture, family roles, motherhood, purpose, and how connection, community, and women-centred recovery spaces support a more compassionate and expansive understanding of addiction and long-term recovery.

00:00:55.039 --> 00:00:59.840
I begin today's conversation right at the very beginning of Patty's drug and alcohol use, age just 13.

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I was brought up in a very dysfunctional family.

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My own mother died of alcoholism when I was 16.

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And the way that I learned to deal with the dysfunction in my family was to drink and use.

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I'm originally from San Francisco, from the Bay Area, California.

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And I was raised in the 60s and 70s.

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And so there were a lot of ways to numb out and not be present.

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So my father had left our house when I was 12.

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My mother's drinking progressed, and I just started checking out.

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I started using drugs and alcohol constantly, really, when I was 13.

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And all through high school, I was taking speed almost daily.

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There was so much.

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I mean, it's hard to describe what that period was like in San Francisco.

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And it was so plentiful.

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And so there was a lot of a lot of acid, a lot of speed, a lot of a lot of drugs.

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And I was in so much pain that I just wanted to check out.

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And so if somebody had something, I would take it and I wouldn't ask questions.

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But what worked best was alcohol.

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So I was drinking to blackout almost every weekend by the time I was 14, 15.

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And it was uh my way of escaping, my way of leaving.

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And my mother, as I said, eventually died when I was 16.

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So my father, who had been out of the picture since 12, came back and moved into the house with me.

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My sister was away at at college.

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She went to Berkeley.

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And so suddenly my father had moved back in, and I was just this wild child.

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And so trying to navigate that presented its own problems.

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But yeah, that to answer your question in a nutshell, I started drinking at 13, 14, taking drugs in order to numb out in order to leave because my upbringing was so painful.

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And as any addict knows, the best way to escape pain is to numb it completely.

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And there's a lot of different ways to do that in addiction, but this was very available and present.

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What made the family so dysfunctional?

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You talk about you, your father not living with you, your mom having obviously problems of alcohol.

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Were they the main factors of what made that home dysfunctional for you?

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Yeah.

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I mean, myriad ways.

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My father was also an alcoholic, but he looked good.

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He drove a nice car, he wore a tie.

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Can't be an alcoholic if you drive a tie.

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Exactly.

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And that's what he said.

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I mean, we make a joke about it, Matt, but that's exactly right.

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My mother was the identified problem because she was messy.

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She drank all day and was, yeah, was a mess.

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It was easy to be the identified problem.

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Whereas my father with this tie and his nice car and he owned a business, he was fine.

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He'd go out for you know long alcohol-fueled lunches, but he was respectable.

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So he wasn't the identified problem, but he was also an alcoholic.

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So I have the two.

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I have the two there.

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And and I'm not exaggerating, people always say, Patty, you must be making this up.

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I'm really not.

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I do have a tendency toward hyperbole.

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So I do own that.

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But honestly, I remember my mother and father saying maybe, I don't know, a handful of words to each other in my entire upbringing.

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They did not talk.

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So the tension was so thick in my house that I mean, even now I get a knot in my stomach and my shoulders go up, and it's just tangible.

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So the dysfunction, he never hit us.

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Well, that's a lie.

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I mean, he did we did get spankings and hit with a belt.

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So that's that's yeah.

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But not to the point that maybe would have been recognized as physical abuse at that time.

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Exactly, exactly.

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We weren't abused according to some levels that are described.

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And you know, we we knew we were loved, my sister and I, but the dysfunction was tangible in the darkness, in the in the lack of communication.

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On on a, you know, uh, thank the universe.

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My sister and I both did well academically, and not for trying, we were just gifted with that.

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And so I knew my way out was going to be to study and get the hell out of there.

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And so that was my escape route.

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But yeah, it's it's really interesting because a lot of people that I speak to in addiction will describe just nightmarish situations locked in closets, beaten, sexual abuse.

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And so mine doesn't sound as bad, you know, but it was uh yeah, just horrible in its in its darkness and silence.

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Yeah.

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I think that's subjective, isn't it, as well.

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Do you know when we talk about those childhood traumas, you know, what what is traumatic for one person isn't for another.

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But I think with your situation as well, I can't imagine growing up in a home where my parents don't talk to each other.

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I mean, my parents eventually split up when I was about 16.

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But, you know, I always felt like I came from a loving family in those informative and those important news.

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I felt like I had that stability in the home.

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My home was somewhere that I found to be a place where I wanted to be.

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It wasn't a place that I was trying to escape from.

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Yeah.

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When you was, you know, at 13, when you first started throwing yourself headfirst into this substance misuse, you talked then about the reflection of, you know, numbing yourself.

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Was you aware that's what you were doing at the time?

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Or do you think it was, you know, you you're kind of doing it, but not necessarily knowing why you're doing it?

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That's a great question.

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Because at the time, I would say it was unconscious, but in retrospect, I knew that all I wanted to do was get out of my skin.

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I was so uncomfortable in my skin.

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And I wanted to fit in, you know, it was this was in the in the 70s, and I wanted to be one of those cool kids.

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So there was that.

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But in retrospect, yeah, we we preloaded before we went to any parties or we went to any gatherings.

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There was a group of us, and we would we would buy a bottle of rum with three or four girls, and we would do shots until the bottle was empty and we were, you know, sort of falling over each other.

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And I was always the one that got sick and blacked out.

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But that's the that's that time, isn't it, as a teenager?

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That pushing the boundaries, pushing the limits.

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And I suppose like now as a 33-year-old adult, I know my limits.

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I didn't as a teenager.

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No, I didn't know what responsible drinking was, and you know, more, more, more was kind of my attitude as a teenager.

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And I'm sure that's the same for most.

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It's for for me as an addict and looking back.

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I mean, I I got I got into recovery just before my 30th birthday, and and I will talk about that in a minute.

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But I was I was clean and sober for 13 years and I relapsed.

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So I was into my 40s when I started drinking again in in 2000 for myriad reasons, which I'll get into in a bit.

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But even in my 40s, I didn't know my limits.

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So you're saying you grew into your limits?

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I didn't.

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I never had those limits, you know.

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I started out saying, oh, I can control this, I can control it, until I couldn't.

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And I was hiding it and I was thinking, oh, I'm okay.

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I'm okay.

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So it wasn't just because I was a teenager, it was because there was there was pain inside of me.

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One of the things that we haven't really delved into on this podcast series is hallucinic substances.

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You know, you said yourself, you know, it was anything that you could get your hands on, amphetamins, acid.

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Talk me through the first time that you experienced hallucinic drugs and what that was like for you.

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I took acid a lot.

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Um it was real popular at the time, though, wasn't it?

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I think when we watch things now that are set in the 70s, there's often some reference to acid in there.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And now, I mean, people are using psychedelics in a medicinal manner.

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So, microdose.

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Yeah, exactly.

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Wow, it was so prevalent, and mushrooms were very prevalent.

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And I mean, as I said earlier, I would take anything that anyone handed me because I thought not only, oh, this will be fun, but also get me out of here, meaning my own head.

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I remember the first time that I got really high on acid.

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It was, had I known what I know now, it would have been interesting retrospectively to say, huh, that was interesting how this happened.

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Because my very first time that I really remember it, I was at a party with, I don't know, there were probably 50 or 60 people in this house.

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And I sat in a corner and looked at this abalone ring that I had and watched a little man in a canoe go around and around in this thing for hours.

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And ha, you know, it's sort of like wow.

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Did I dance?

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No.

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Did I talk to people?

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No.

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But I was removed enough and I was able to remove, you know, that whole thing of I want to get out of my skin.

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Yeah.

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So I didn't know it then, but it was great because it removed me.

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But it was also terrifying because you know, I'd be with other people and I was with a lot of people who had really bad trips, screaming, uh, thinking that things were chasing them.

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And yeah, it it there's absolutely out of control.

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That's that's what it was.

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Absolutely out of control.

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And at the time, that that was okay with me because I wanted to escape, and that means part of that escape is out of control.

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See, acid is interesting enough, it's one of the few things where people talk about where I think, I mean, having never taken a substance before, it's the one that if I had, I think that would be the one that I would have problems with.

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Because often it sounds really fun, it's almost like virtual reality.

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Do you know you say that little story with the guy going around the canoe and it's like I smiled then because that sounded nice, it sounded peaceful.

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But I think the other part that scares me is I know I would be the person that would have that really bad trip.

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Things are chasing me, the paranoia, the anxiety.

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And I think that is obviously for me the reason why I've never ever touched it, because that would be my experience.

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I know it would be, you know.

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Yeah, and and we weren't doing it in in healthy, safe backgrounds, you know.

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We were doing it wherever at this party, and anyway.

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And there was another time where, again, my I feel so sorry for the little one that I was.

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It was sort of like, give me anything, I'll take it, I'll do whatever.

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I was sitting in a group with about 10 people, and a guy lit up a joint, and I we thought it was just pot, just marijuana, and and so I took a couple hits, came around again, took a couple hits, and I learned after that it was elephant tranquilizer.

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Wow.

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And and so, and what it did was it paralyzed us.

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I was gonna say, how would how would the body even react to something like that?

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If a tranquilizer is made for do you know an elephant?

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How is that?

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You know what that's what they called it is elephant tranquilizer?

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I don't know if it was.

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It was a tranquilizer, but then all of us, however many there was, were lying on the floor and couldn't move.

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And what's sad now, looking back, I wasn't scared.

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I was like, oh wow, this is happening.

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Okay.

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You know how tragic, how tragic that I had so little regard or care for myself that that didn't fucking terrify me.

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Yeah, you know, if I heard about my kids going through something like that, oh my God, it would it would horrify me, you know, and instead we're all laying on on the floor, unable to move until it wore off.

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I don't know how long it was, and then people started sort of moving little different parts of their body.

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And Jesus, you know, and that ties into this other piece with it, it was before my my mother died.

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I think I was 15 when I did that one.

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And I don't I don't even know what time it was, and I never worried about time because I knew my mother was passed out.

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And so for me, I mean, again, just the heartbreak of that the way I played it as the rebel was you know, I don't I don't have a curfew, I don't have to be home.

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So I did this whole rebel thing.

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But inside now, I was dying.

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It's like all I wanted was a parent to be home, saying, Are you okay, sweetheart?

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Please be home by midnight or 11 or whatever.

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You know, I'm worried about you.

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Instead, I came home rocked in whatever time it was, or ended up staying at someone else's house and wasn't missed.

00:14:46.320 --> 00:14:53.759
Do you think, thinking about that now then, do you think you cared so little for yourself at that age because you felt as though no one else cared for you?

00:14:54.159 --> 00:14:55.440
I mean, that's a great insight.

00:14:55.519 --> 00:14:58.000
And I've I went through that in my own therapy.

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But absolutely, you know, it's sort of like I wanted to escape because of the pain, but also, you know, like fuck you.

00:15:04.240 --> 00:15:04.960
You don't care, fine.

00:15:05.039 --> 00:15:05.679
I don't care either.

00:15:06.320 --> 00:15:07.679
That's heartbreaking that.

00:15:07.919 --> 00:15:15.759
Again, we we spoke a little bit about, you know, my daughter before we started, and I I hope I I hope she never feels like that.

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I hope what you've experienced, I hope nobody ever feels like that.

00:15:18.799 --> 00:15:25.120
Because it's interesting that rebel character that I don't I don't have to be home, I don't have a care for you, because back then that would have been quite cool.

00:15:25.200 --> 00:15:29.840
Like other kids would have looked at you and thought, gosh, she's got it good, you know, no restrictions.

00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:35.279
That's the type of thing that people only get when they go to college, you know, university over here.

00:15:35.600 --> 00:15:47.360
You had that as a teenager, and it's funny to think that some of your peers might have looked at you almost envious that you had that freedom, when the reality is you was probably looking at them thinking, I kind of wish I had what you had.

00:15:47.519 --> 00:15:51.600
I wish I had a parent who was saying because obviously no cell phones or anything like that.

00:15:51.919 --> 00:15:53.039
No, nothing like that, exactly.

00:15:53.440 --> 00:15:55.600
Even that's terrifying to think you just left the house.

00:15:55.679 --> 00:15:56.399
Do you know what I mean?

00:15:56.639 --> 00:15:59.440
Left the house, and it was like, I don't know where they are, I don't know what they're doing.

00:15:59.679 --> 00:16:05.759
I don't think I don't think as a parent I would have cut I'd I'd come up uh back then, you know, to think I don't know where they are, I don't know what they're doing.

00:16:05.919 --> 00:16:20.080
Because I mean, over here in in the UK, do you know myself and probably a lot of other people that have lived here, you know, we we went out when sort of the sun came up, and then our our cue to go home was when the streetlights came on, you know, and our parents didn't see us all day.

00:16:20.240 --> 00:16:23.840
And obviously you'd come home, and I imagine my mum and dad, you know, they were very caring people.

00:16:23.919 --> 00:16:26.480
I imagine that would have been a bit of a sigh of relief for them when we did come home.

00:16:26.799 --> 00:16:27.440
Yeah, yeah.

00:16:27.759 --> 00:16:32.559
We just obviously completely oblivious to the to the dangers of whatever that would have been back then.

00:16:33.200 --> 00:16:35.919
Just tied into that, that's a you know, you speak of your daughter.

00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:47.440
I've got two sons who are adults now, but that was the most important piece for me is that they would never, ever feel like they were not absolutely and completely loved.

00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:53.759
And that that was of the utmost importance because I do remember.

00:16:53.919 --> 00:17:04.960
And so one of the things that I am incredibly grateful for is that my sister and I, my sister's also in recovery, that my sister and I broke multi-generational traumas.

00:17:05.279 --> 00:17:15.599
I was gonna talk about that because it's interesting how I mean you could have really just repeated the cycle of what your mother did to you, and that's often what happens.

00:17:15.680 --> 00:17:25.680
I think breaking generational traumas are things that really feel like we're only kind of discussing in in the last, I don't know, 20 years or so, but you know, obviously it's something that must be happening.

00:17:25.920 --> 00:17:31.839
In in reflection, how much do you know about your mother and her own upbringing and what that was like for her?

00:17:31.920 --> 00:17:32.880
Do you know anything?

00:17:33.200 --> 00:17:43.759
Well, yeah, I mean, my her parents, my grandmother and grandfather were essential when we were growing up, and they were just that was that was a real safe place for us.

00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:48.000
My my mother's background is Italian.

00:17:48.240 --> 00:17:54.400
My grandmother was born in in San Francisco, but her parents were both immigrants from Italy.

00:17:54.559 --> 00:18:08.319
My grandfather was an immigrant from Italy, my father's side were Irish, so Irish and Italian, screwed up Catholic, apologies to anybody, and and alcohol on both sides.

00:18:08.960 --> 00:18:20.640
Although we didn't see a lot of alcohol in my grandparents, but my grandmother's mother was an alcoholic.

00:18:20.799 --> 00:18:28.240
I mean, she Christmases often would be her ending up drunk and crying in the bathroom.

00:18:28.559 --> 00:18:34.079
My mother and her sisters would always drink a lot at holidays.

00:18:34.640 --> 00:18:39.200
But my I don't, I don't remember my grandmother ever drinking.

00:18:39.359 --> 00:18:42.960
Mind you, she was very codependent and very anxious.

00:18:43.200 --> 00:18:50.480
But she was a big fat Italian grandmother who I just remember being cuddled by and loving it.

00:18:51.359 --> 00:19:00.720
And you know, I it as far as I know, there wasn't a lot of dysfunction in their family, but I don't know a lot of the intricacies that we're talking about.

00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:09.839
Of course, yeah, because I I think obviously, like, you know, we all go for our own individual journeys, and and you know, trauma isn't always something that we're subjected to by our parents.

00:19:09.920 --> 00:19:18.799
You know, some people, and I mean people that we've spoken to previously on the podcast, experienced a sexual assault, and that is what triggered their drug and alcohol use.

00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:25.680
And you know, if they had children and that could affect them, so it's it's not always something that is brought onto us by our parents.

00:19:25.759 --> 00:19:28.240
But I found it interesting that you said your sister is also in recovery.

00:19:28.480 --> 00:19:28.640
Yeah.

00:19:28.720 --> 00:19:31.920
Oh, we can we but we've and you know, I'm grateful beyond measure.

00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:34.559
She was my mentor, she got sober before me.

00:19:34.640 --> 00:19:42.319
She's my older sister, she got clean and sober before me, so she was my role model, and I'm I am honestly grateful beyond measure.

00:19:42.640 --> 00:19:47.359
Um, but she took me to my first 12 step meeting, but I want to support her.

00:19:47.680 --> 00:19:48.319
Okay, yeah, yeah.

00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:49.519
There was nothing wrong with me.

00:19:49.599 --> 00:19:50.480
I was just I like it.

00:19:50.559 --> 00:19:51.920
Is that how she ponded you to get to it?

00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:52.960
It's like just come support me.

00:19:53.599 --> 00:19:54.960
Exactly, exactly, exactly.

00:19:55.200 --> 00:19:56.319
That was brilliant.

00:19:56.799 --> 00:19:59.759
But so we were aware of that display.

00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:19.279
Dysfunction and and you know, in terms of the family system, we are the only ones, both sides of the family, where there's addiction on both sides, and we're the only ones that got into recovery of all of our cousins and all of the people on both sides of the family, even though there was rampant addiction on both sides.

00:20:19.519 --> 00:20:21.440
Why do you think that was then with you and your sister?

00:20:21.680 --> 00:20:23.599
Because our mother was the identified problem.

00:20:23.839 --> 00:20:25.680
Okay, you know, on both sides.

00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:31.839
You know, and our mother died of alcoholism when I was 16 and Karen was 20.

00:20:32.319 --> 00:20:36.000
So we were like, oh, poor, you know, poor Karen and Patty.

00:20:36.400 --> 00:20:36.640
Okay.

00:20:37.039 --> 00:20:42.480
And and, you know, at times it's like, oh God, you know, thank God we got into recovery.

00:20:42.960 --> 00:20:52.799
Because out of the family, we're we're the only ones talking about this stuff that was the silent, you know, the elephant in the room on both sides.

00:20:52.960 --> 00:20:57.039
But do you think it was like ignored by the family then for other people that were struggling?

00:20:57.519 --> 00:20:57.839
Absolutely.

00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:00.880
And our cousin, it's it's tragic.

00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:02.400
I mean, she was a meth addict.

00:21:02.559 --> 00:21:04.880
It was I don't know how much she's still using.

00:21:04.960 --> 00:21:09.759
I haven't seen her in quite a while, but her life's really, really still screwed up.

00:21:09.839 --> 00:21:14.799
This was my my mother's sister, and she she but she was again the identified problem.

00:21:14.880 --> 00:21:17.759
So my cousin was like, oh, you know, she's the problem.

00:21:17.839 --> 00:21:23.039
I wish she had gotten into recovery, but she didn't, and and tragic.

00:21:23.279 --> 00:21:24.799
So you know.

00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:27.119
Where did it go from you then?

00:21:27.279 --> 00:21:30.480
We've talked obviously with those teenager user, and going back to your mum, I guess.

00:21:30.559 --> 00:21:35.440
Was that something that seeing your mother die of alcoholism?

00:21:35.519 --> 00:21:38.000
Was that a trigger for you at any point in terms of like, right?

00:21:38.079 --> 00:21:39.759
I don't want to be like her, I need to get well.

00:21:40.079 --> 00:21:40.319
Absolutely.

00:21:40.480 --> 00:21:42.799
God, it's like somebody fed you the question.

00:21:43.920 --> 00:21:48.720
Um but first of all, I just I just want to acknowledge a piece of that.

00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:52.799
My mother was brilliant, and she never should have been a mother.

00:21:52.960 --> 00:21:58.799
She was a good Italian Catholic woman, and she quit her life to have babies.

00:21:59.039 --> 00:22:11.119
She was, she spoke several languages, was a translator at the at the ports of San Francisco, graduated cum laude from UC Berkeley, and was brilliant.

00:22:11.359 --> 00:22:22.480
But she married an Italian, a uh Catholic Irish man, stayed home, had babies, and dragged herself to death, is what ultimately happened.

00:22:23.440 --> 00:22:27.440
My again, I'm trying to weave this in so it makes sense.

00:22:27.519 --> 00:22:33.119
But anyway, I when I finished university, I moved to Alaska.

00:22:33.359 --> 00:22:38.000
I was a bartender in Alaska and you know, kid in the kids.

00:22:40.240 --> 00:22:40.640
Yeah, yeah.

00:22:40.799 --> 00:22:49.279
And this was in the 80s, and the 80s were a time of significant wealth in Alaska.

00:22:49.359 --> 00:22:53.039
It was the oil pipeline and fishing was huge.

00:22:53.279 --> 00:22:54.480
It was 1980.

00:22:54.559 --> 00:22:56.720
I had just graduated from Berkeley.

00:22:56.880 --> 00:23:00.000
My mother went to Berkeley, my sister went to Berkeley, I went to Berkeley.

00:23:00.400 --> 00:23:01.039
Moved there.

00:23:01.119 --> 00:23:06.319
I had heard that there were 10 men to every woman in Alaska, and I thought, well, hell, I love that.

00:23:06.559 --> 00:23:07.599
So I moved there.

00:23:07.839 --> 00:23:17.039
I became a bartender, and not only could I drink to my heart's content, but there was also so much cocaine, it was insane.

00:23:17.359 --> 00:23:26.799
So I would bartend a lot of the ways that I was tipped was lines in the back room.

00:23:27.039 --> 00:23:32.480
So I was just doing stupid amounts of cocaine and drinking.

00:23:32.720 --> 00:23:36.240
It was, I was on a terrifying path.

00:23:38.319 --> 00:23:47.359
But for the grace of whatever universe is out there, there was an absolute fork in the road.

00:23:47.839 --> 00:23:53.359
I I was doing substitute teaching during the day, some days of the week, and I was bartending at night.

00:23:53.599 --> 00:23:55.039
I just I just have to laugh at that.

00:23:55.119 --> 00:24:02.960
The idea of you teaching and then doing lines of cooking and getting completely off your personal and a lot of times not sleeping.

00:24:03.200 --> 00:24:08.799
And then and I was well, I was teaching at the alternative high school, so these were the you know the bad kids.

00:24:09.119 --> 00:24:13.440
So I'd walk in and and I'd be like, hey guys, you know, I'm one of you.

00:24:13.599 --> 00:24:15.279
Anyway, I'm a cautionary tale.

00:24:16.079 --> 00:24:17.119
A cautionary tale.

00:24:17.200 --> 00:24:17.839
Oh God.

00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:27.279
Anyway, so I was doing this relief to this uh substitute teaching, bartending, and then this all happened in one week, Matt.

00:24:27.440 --> 00:24:28.240
In one week.

00:24:28.400 --> 00:24:32.000
I got offered a full-time job at the at the alternative high school.

00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:39.759
A woman I worked with said that there was a a townhouse or a condo that was for sale next door to her.

00:24:40.240 --> 00:24:49.839
And in Alaska at the time, because there was so much money, you could get a loan from the bank interest-free for a number of years.

00:24:50.319 --> 00:24:58.240
And so I could buy this condo, interest-free loan, had a job, and all the cocaine I could ask for.

00:24:58.559 --> 00:25:03.440
And that same week, I got an aerogram.

00:25:03.680 --> 00:25:10.640
I don't know, you guys are too young maybe to remember aerograms, but anyway, they're folded up pieces of paper that you send internationally.

00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:15.039
And my boyfriend then, my husband now, he's stuck it through.

00:25:15.200 --> 00:25:20.000
Thank you, Jeff, sent me an aerogram and said, let's travel.

00:25:20.079 --> 00:25:24.480
And he was in Australia at the time, and he said, Let's travel in Southeast Asia.

00:25:24.559 --> 00:25:25.839
I'll meet you in Bali.

00:25:26.720 --> 00:25:38.000
So I had this piece of paper inviting me to Bali and just drop it all, or an interest-free loan for a condo, a job, and you know, a lifestyle.

00:25:38.640 --> 00:25:41.279
And I got that all in one week.

00:25:41.440 --> 00:25:49.200
And I sat on a log next to the water in Juneau, Alaska, and sobbed and just said, Oh my God, what the hell am I gonna do?

00:25:49.359 --> 00:25:52.160
Oh my god, oh my god, sobbing, sobbing.

00:25:52.480 --> 00:25:58.799
And I kid you not, again, I told you I do have a tendency toward hyperbole, but this is a true story.

00:25:59.039 --> 00:26:05.519
It felt like someone was standing behind me and saying, if you stay here, you will die.

00:26:06.160 --> 00:26:11.359
And it was, I I literally turned around because the voice was so loud.

00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:30.880
And, you know, I I've, you know, whatever you want to call it in some circles, you know, it's higher power moment or a yeah, a kick from the old maybe older you that had passed away, time traveled back to the stood behind you and said, do that one.

00:26:31.119 --> 00:26:31.359
Exactly.

00:26:31.680 --> 00:26:32.480
This one will kill you.

00:26:32.799 --> 00:26:33.119
I love it.

00:26:33.200 --> 00:26:33.759
Oh, I love it.

00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:34.400
I like that one.

00:26:34.480 --> 00:26:37.039
I'm gonna add that to my story, but I'll give the credit for it.

00:26:37.279 --> 00:26:38.000
Thank you.

00:26:38.799 --> 00:26:47.359
So I gave notice, I didn't take the condo, I quit the job at that red dog saloon, and I met up with Jeff and Bolly.

00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:50.720
And we ended up going to Japan.

00:26:50.880 --> 00:26:55.200
We taught in Japan, where I continued to drink.

00:26:55.279 --> 00:27:03.200
I had sort of this rule that if my students were pouring Masaki and I'm not pouring it, you don't count because, you know, I think that's fair.

00:27:03.440 --> 00:27:05.119
You know, I'm not I'm not pouring it, though.

00:27:06.160 --> 00:27:07.200
Just don't want to waste it.

00:27:08.160 --> 00:27:11.839
And Jeff and I finally had a huge fight about it.

00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:15.359
And I thought, okay, this is a problem.

00:27:15.599 --> 00:27:20.079
Now, this was all going back to the question of was there anything about my mother and my own kids?

00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:22.319
So I have to walk in the coast, but I'm getting there.

00:27:23.119 --> 00:27:38.240
And so we ended up traveling for four years in Southeast Asia and Asia, and we went back to America, and Jeff was getting his master's degree, I know it was his BA degree at that point.

00:27:39.119 --> 00:27:44.240
And I went to, I mean, this sounds so corny, but again, it's true.

00:27:44.480 --> 00:28:00.480
I went to an astrologist psychic, and she read my chart, and she talked about a couple of things, and she pointed at the chart and she said, Patty, I'm looking at this area of your chart, and it looks like there's some problems with alcohol.

00:28:00.559 --> 00:28:03.680
And I said, Yeah, my mother died of alcoholism when I was 16.

00:28:03.759 --> 00:28:05.519
She said, Okay, that explains this.

00:28:05.680 --> 00:28:08.559
But there's this part right here, you know.

00:28:08.720 --> 00:28:13.519
I I I still see I said, Well, yeah, my dad's still a practicing alcoholic, but he looks good.

00:28:13.599 --> 00:28:14.400
He wears a tie.

00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:16.000
Okay, okay, that makes sense.

00:28:16.160 --> 00:28:18.400
But there's still this part here.

00:28:18.720 --> 00:28:22.880
And I said, Oh, well, my sister is also an alcoholic, but she's in recovery.

00:28:23.119 --> 00:28:24.000
Ah, that's great.

00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:25.680
Congratulations, Patty.

00:28:25.759 --> 00:28:27.200
Are you an alcoholic?

00:28:27.519 --> 00:28:28.319
Just like that.

00:28:28.480 --> 00:28:33.359
And I went, oh my God, and just burst out crying, ran out the door.

00:28:33.519 --> 00:28:39.440
Actually, I probably walked, that's the hyperbole, and and left, and just was so shaken.

00:28:39.599 --> 00:28:42.720
And the next day I went to my first 12-step meeting.

00:28:42.880 --> 00:28:43.119
Wow.

00:28:43.279 --> 00:28:45.759
And that was two days before my 30th birthday.

00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:48.799
I had given myself that as my 30th birthday present.

00:28:49.839 --> 00:28:52.799
And back to that original question.

00:28:53.200 --> 00:28:55.039
Jeff and I were talking about having kids.

00:28:55.200 --> 00:28:58.400
I was 30, my body was saying, time for a baby.

00:28:58.799 --> 00:29:02.960
And I swore I would not be my mother.

00:29:03.599 --> 00:29:09.759
So I got clean and sober two days before my 30th birthday in 1988.

00:29:10.480 --> 00:29:13.440
And I did it because I didn't want to be my mother.

00:29:13.599 --> 00:29:18.960
I did it so that I could hang on to Jeff because I didn't want to lose my partner.

00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:21.839
And we had already had several of those.

00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:26.240
You know, we can talk about codependency too, but put that on the on the back burner.

00:29:26.400 --> 00:29:30.880
And I and I had done a lot of therapy by then anyway, and I knew the patterns.

00:29:31.039 --> 00:29:36.000
My sister was already in recovery, had already been to a meeting to support her, as I told you.

00:29:36.319 --> 00:29:39.200
And so I walked into my first 12-step meeting.

00:29:39.440 --> 00:29:40.640
It was all women.

00:29:40.880 --> 00:29:48.079
It was in Tucson, Arizona, mostly youngish women in their 30s, and I just felt loved.

00:29:48.559 --> 00:29:50.640
And I thought, oh my God, I'm home.

00:29:51.119 --> 00:29:52.079
Oh my God.

00:29:52.400 --> 00:29:57.039
And I'm grateful beyond measure that that was my first meeting because I was so held.

00:29:57.200 --> 00:29:58.559
I was so held.

00:29:58.880 --> 00:30:04.480
And I I didn't drink for almost 13 years.

00:30:05.680 --> 00:30:06.480
However.

00:30:06.880 --> 00:30:12.319
So I Did you did you feel though that obviously talking about the dependency to the substance?

00:30:12.480 --> 00:30:17.680
Yes, it sounds like you're drinking a lot, but did you feel as though you were dependent on alcohol?

00:30:17.759 --> 00:30:22.160
Because I mean, as well as alcohol, you've talked about using a myriad of drugs.

00:30:22.640 --> 00:30:25.680
Getting sober from one substance can be quite difficult.

00:30:25.759 --> 00:30:29.039
And sometimes it's almost like a like a little game of guess who?

00:30:29.119 --> 00:30:30.640
You've got to knock them off one by one.

00:30:30.880 --> 00:30:34.640
Or did you just go boom and be done with everything at that point?

00:30:35.920 --> 00:30:42.480
The when I left, when I had the the the future me come up behind me.

00:30:42.640 --> 00:30:46.000
Remember, I'm gonna use that story, come up behind me and say that.

00:30:46.240 --> 00:30:48.720
And I went overseas, I quit using drugs.

00:30:49.279 --> 00:30:49.440
Okay.

00:30:49.759 --> 00:30:50.160
Completely.

00:30:50.240 --> 00:30:50.400
Yeah.

00:30:50.640 --> 00:30:53.920
Because, you know, I was in countries where they'd kill you, you know.

00:30:54.400 --> 00:30:55.039
Flew into Singapore.

00:30:56.079 --> 00:30:59.039
So just didn't didn't use other drugs.

00:30:59.200 --> 00:31:03.839
Well, I did take um, I did have magic mushroom omelets in Bali, but wow.

00:31:06.240 --> 00:31:06.319
Yeah.

00:31:06.559 --> 00:31:08.799
So egg and magic mushroom.

00:31:08.880 --> 00:31:09.119
Wow.

00:31:09.599 --> 00:31:12.400
It was on the menu, so I figured, you know, if it's on the menu, then it's okay.

00:31:12.640 --> 00:31:13.119
Can't be too bad.

00:31:13.279 --> 00:31:14.240
It can't be too bad.

00:31:14.480 --> 00:31:22.799
And so I I quit using drugs for the most part, and then didn't drink nearly as much because Jeff isn't a drinker, which is amazing.

00:31:22.960 --> 00:31:24.000
Like, how did he end up with me?

00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:27.440
So it was mostly just alcohol.

00:31:27.680 --> 00:31:30.000
But was there dependence?

00:31:30.160 --> 00:31:31.599
There absolutely was.

00:31:32.319 --> 00:31:35.839
However, again, pure pure luck.

00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:39.440
I didn't have DTs, I didn't go through withdrawals like that.

00:31:39.519 --> 00:31:41.680
I've known a lot of people who have.

00:31:42.319 --> 00:31:49.359
But I had removed myself enough that that it I don't know how.

00:31:49.519 --> 00:31:50.559
I I didn't go through that.

00:31:50.880 --> 00:32:00.079
I think dependency as well, it's an interesting thing because sometimes when we say dependency, people instantly think of the physical dependency, the you know the shakes, the tremors, and exactly.

00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:07.200
And I think if there's this element of that, oh, I can only go to this party if I have a drink, if I I can only do this if I have a drink.

00:32:07.359 --> 00:32:07.680
Exactly.

00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:10.720
For me, that in itself, that is dependency.

00:32:10.799 --> 00:32:13.920
Yeah, it might not be a physical dependency, but it's definitely dependency.

00:32:14.000 --> 00:32:20.400
And I think it still could justify going down the route of fellowship means.

00:32:20.559 --> 00:32:21.200
Yep, yep.

00:32:21.359 --> 00:32:25.599
And I think a really important piece there is that I left.

00:32:26.400 --> 00:32:36.559
So, and you know, there's a there's a real thing about, you know, pulling a geographic that people, you know, no matter, you know, wherever you go, there you are.

00:32:37.119 --> 00:32:47.599
However, because of the fact that I left Alaska and I went to Asia and I completely changed everything, it shifted that.

00:32:47.759 --> 00:32:52.400
If I had stayed in Juneau, I could I couldn't have.

00:32:52.559 --> 00:33:01.920
I couldn't have, because my entire culture there was a was uh circled around drugs and alcohol, and those were all my friends, etc.

00:33:02.240 --> 00:33:05.359
So the fact that I did leave was huge.

00:33:05.519 --> 00:33:14.880
And then when I left, Jeff and I had been living in Oregon when I got that reading, and we left for Tucson, Arizona the next day, and I went to the meeting again.

00:33:15.200 --> 00:33:18.720
So even though it's not popular to say I believe there are effects.

00:33:19.039 --> 00:33:26.000
Yeah, I I think that because sometimes, I mean, yes, I think deep down we know that the individual self is the problem.

00:33:26.079 --> 00:33:42.960
But I think you can remove yourself from environments where triggers are, and I think culture, you know, that there's that I suppose in the culture that you're in, when I say culture, it can be your friends, it can be your family, it can be just your general day-to-day routine, which is all part of of how you're living.

00:33:43.200 --> 00:33:45.200
They can all be triggers to that substance misuse.

00:33:45.279 --> 00:33:50.319
And I think there is something in there where it can be healthy to remove yourself from one place and go to another.

00:33:50.480 --> 00:33:57.599
I think where it becomes an issue is if you find yourself pulling a geographic and you go from one place to another, oh, the problems are there again.

00:33:57.759 --> 00:33:58.079
Exactly.

00:33:58.400 --> 00:33:59.920
To another, same problems.

00:34:00.079 --> 00:34:02.000
Then you've got to start looking, okay.

00:34:02.559 --> 00:34:04.000
It's not the environment.

00:34:04.079 --> 00:34:10.480
I can't keep blaming, you know, people and places, and I have to start looking inwards.

00:34:10.719 --> 00:34:11.519
Right, right.

00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:14.639
And I was doing a bit of both.

00:34:14.800 --> 00:34:16.400
I was doing some therapy, etc.

00:34:16.559 --> 00:34:21.840
Not as much as once I got clean and sober, but that made a big difference for me.

00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:22.639
It really did.

00:34:22.880 --> 00:34:26.000
And so because of all that, I was very ready.

00:34:26.079 --> 00:34:31.679
And I had had the the, you know, seeing my sister just start to shine when she got clean and sober.

00:34:31.840 --> 00:34:33.760
So that all made a difference.

00:34:34.159 --> 00:34:44.159
But then after being in in Tucson for about four years, Jeff and I moved to New Zealand in 1992.

00:34:44.639 --> 00:34:50.239
And I didn't have the same level of community.

00:34:50.400 --> 00:35:02.239
And one of my very, very favorite quotes, which you've probably heard several times, is from an author and speaker named Johan Hari that the opposite of addiction is not sobriety.

00:35:02.320 --> 00:35:04.400
The opposite of addiction is connection.

00:35:04.800 --> 00:35:12.719
And that having that connection that I had with those women and those people, it just held me.

00:35:12.880 --> 00:35:16.480
And suddenly, when we moved to New Zealand, I had nothing.

00:35:16.719 --> 00:35:18.320
I didn't know anyone.

00:35:19.119 --> 00:35:22.559
I was really left floundering.

00:35:22.719 --> 00:35:50.079
And I looked for a 12-step meeting, but I we lived in this small town of 7,000 people, and I'm not blaming anyone, and I'm I take full responsibility, however, comma, aside from that, with all that said, the meetings that I went to were mostly old men.

00:35:50.239 --> 00:35:50.800
Yeah.

00:35:51.039 --> 00:36:01.360
And I walked into the 12-step meeting, I didn't know anybody, I was scared, I was sad, I had left my support group, and I cried a lot.

00:36:01.519 --> 00:36:06.719
I'm an emotional human being, and I was told to shut up and listen.

00:36:06.960 --> 00:36:07.440
Oh wow.

00:36:07.599 --> 00:36:14.639
And I was told, you've got two ears and one mouth, you know, listen twice as much as talking.

00:36:14.800 --> 00:36:16.639
Shut your mouth and listen.

00:36:17.039 --> 00:36:17.920
I've had that before.

00:36:18.079 --> 00:36:19.599
Yeah, ears open, mouth shut.

00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:20.320
Exactly.

00:36:20.559 --> 00:36:20.719
Yeah.

00:36:20.960 --> 00:36:21.440
Exactly.

00:36:21.599 --> 00:36:27.679
And you know, you've and each time I would say, but I'm struggling.

00:36:27.920 --> 00:36:31.360
And they say, Don't pick up a drink, come to a meeting, you'll be fine.

00:36:31.599 --> 00:36:33.280
But I'm not fine.

00:36:33.840 --> 00:36:39.440
And eventually I didn't have that connection, like Johan Hari was talking about.

00:36:39.599 --> 00:36:41.280
I didn't have the connection.

00:36:41.679 --> 00:36:45.599
And so I stopped going to meetings.

00:36:46.159 --> 00:36:53.519
And I had my kids, you know, I was I was clean and sober for five years before I had my son.

00:36:53.679 --> 00:36:58.800
And then I had my first son when I was 35, my second son when I was 38.

00:36:58.960 --> 00:37:01.440
I was clean and sober, strong, healthy.

00:37:01.679 --> 00:37:03.440
And then they went to school.

00:37:03.679 --> 00:37:18.880
And suddenly, this raison d'être that I had with my kids, they've gone to school, and I just was left feeling, you know, floundering, rudderless, like, what am I doing?

00:37:19.360 --> 00:37:24.239
New community, relatively new community, no real support system.

00:37:25.519 --> 00:37:27.440
You know, some support system.

00:37:27.519 --> 00:37:29.039
I met some beautiful friends there.

00:37:29.119 --> 00:37:33.199
I don't want to say I didn't have that, but not in recovery.

00:37:33.519 --> 00:37:51.360
And so once the kids went to school, yeah, the mothers, we lived on the we lived on the coast near the beach, and the mothers at the school would all get together after school and sit on decks and have beautiful New Zealand wine and sit out in the sun while the kids played.

00:37:51.760 --> 00:37:55.360
And I had lost my connection in recovery.

00:37:55.519 --> 00:37:58.159
And I said to myself, I've got this.

00:37:58.320 --> 00:38:02.639
I haven't, you know, I haven't been drinking for almost 13 years.

00:38:02.800 --> 00:38:03.280
I'm good.

00:38:03.440 --> 00:38:03.920
I'm good.

00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:04.800
I've got this.

00:38:04.960 --> 00:38:06.719
I can have a glass of wine.

00:38:06.880 --> 00:38:08.000
I am fine.

00:38:08.159 --> 00:38:09.280
I am fine.

00:38:09.519 --> 00:38:12.000
And that's the convincing of yourself, isn't it?

00:38:12.159 --> 00:38:16.480
You know, you they often say the the relapse before the relapse.

00:38:16.559 --> 00:38:20.159
And I think that is the point there where you're saying it's been 30 news, I'm fine.

00:38:20.480 --> 00:38:21.679
That's already the relapse, isn't it?

00:38:22.079 --> 00:38:22.400
Right there.

00:38:22.639 --> 00:38:23.199
Absolutely.

00:38:23.280 --> 00:38:23.760
That's it.

00:38:23.840 --> 00:38:24.639
Exactly, man.

00:38:25.119 --> 00:38:28.719
And so I I said, you know, I I'm absolutely fine.

00:38:28.800 --> 00:38:30.559
And I was until I wasn't.

00:38:31.280 --> 00:38:37.760
And so I would go to, you know, after school, have a glass of wine, the kids were playing.

00:38:37.920 --> 00:38:43.599
It was, you know, this just lovely scene with all the kids playing in the sun and blah, blah, blah.

00:38:43.760 --> 00:38:46.320
And the mothers were all the yummy mummies.

00:38:46.559 --> 00:38:49.280
And we did that.

00:38:49.519 --> 00:38:51.840
And it was fine until it wasn't.

00:38:51.920 --> 00:38:57.280
And then what I saw was I would start having an extra drink.

00:38:57.440 --> 00:38:59.920
And then I'd start making deals with myself.

00:39:00.239 --> 00:39:04.079
I will only have two glasses of wine after school.

00:39:04.239 --> 00:39:08.159
I will only have three beers at the pizza party.

00:39:08.320 --> 00:39:09.119
I will only have.

00:39:09.519 --> 00:39:11.440
And then I started enrolling my husband.

00:39:11.599 --> 00:39:12.880
Okay, we're going to this party.

00:39:13.039 --> 00:39:16.480
Make sure I only have, you know, codependence.

00:39:17.280 --> 00:39:17.599
Yeah.

00:39:18.079 --> 00:39:21.039
What was his response to you drinking after 13 years of sobriety?

00:39:21.280 --> 00:39:24.800
Was he worried or did he also think he was in control of that?

00:39:25.039 --> 00:39:27.039
I'm really good at acting.

00:39:27.280 --> 00:39:29.039
God, I was good, you know?

00:39:29.199 --> 00:39:34.480
And I was good at hiding bottles in recycling, and I was good at keeping it together.

00:39:34.639 --> 00:39:37.039
And Jeff thought, you know, okay.

00:39:37.519 --> 00:39:38.960
If you think you've got it, great.

00:39:39.119 --> 00:39:40.079
And I enrolled him.

00:39:40.159 --> 00:39:44.159
You know, I mean, oh my God, it's so fucking sick in retrospect.

00:39:44.320 --> 00:39:50.960
And anybody that's listening, really just pay attention to the codependence that's in a system because there always is.

00:39:51.199 --> 00:39:53.519
And so I knew exactly how to deal with it.

00:39:53.679 --> 00:39:56.480
Instead of me trying to hide it, I'd enrolled Jeff.

00:39:56.719 --> 00:39:59.760
Okay, we're gonna go to this party, and I'm only gonna have two glasses.

00:40:00.079 --> 00:40:00.480
Of wine.

00:40:00.639 --> 00:40:03.440
So make sure, you know, so now he's in on it.

00:40:03.599 --> 00:40:05.360
And you know, it was all part of the plan.

00:40:05.440 --> 00:40:10.320
And then I go in the kitchen and sneak that third glass, but make it look like it was still not filmed up.

00:40:10.480 --> 00:40:12.960
Just still, that's you know, oh my god.

00:40:13.039 --> 00:40:18.719
And just that the lengths I would go to to keep the, you know, that whole mirage there.

00:40:18.960 --> 00:40:20.480
Was you aware at the time you were doing it?

00:40:20.880 --> 00:40:21.440
Oh, hell yeah.

00:40:21.599 --> 00:40:21.679
Yeah.

00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:23.679
So it's not like a post-reflection thing.

00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:24.320
Oh yeah.

00:40:24.480 --> 00:40:26.239
I had been sober almost 13 years.

00:40:26.400 --> 00:40:26.559
Yeah.

00:40:26.719 --> 00:40:29.360
See, I mean, sobriety ruins it, you know.

00:40:29.519 --> 00:40:30.880
You you know too much.

00:40:31.039 --> 00:40:31.360
Yeah.

00:40:31.599 --> 00:40:44.079
So I'm telling myself, well, I can still do this because I can still read recovery material and I can still say the third step prayer in the morning, and I can still do this and this, and I can still journal, right?

00:40:44.159 --> 00:40:45.760
I was always journaled.

00:40:45.840 --> 00:40:46.880
And I'm fine.

00:40:47.119 --> 00:40:47.840
I've got it.

00:40:48.000 --> 00:40:48.800
I've got it.

00:40:49.039 --> 00:40:55.760
And then I'd hide a bottle in recycling and just sort of think, okay, that's a red flag, but it's okay.

00:40:56.000 --> 00:40:59.599
And then I just started seeing myself doing things that I swore I would never do.

00:40:59.679 --> 00:41:02.480
You know, it's one of those things I will never do that.

00:41:02.639 --> 00:41:03.920
And then it's done.

00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:06.639
It's like, okay, I haven't done that one yet.

00:41:07.280 --> 00:41:09.199
And then just a few things.

00:41:09.280 --> 00:41:11.920
You know, I drove drunk with my kids in the car once.

00:41:12.159 --> 00:41:14.000
Um, that's one of the things I regret most.

00:41:14.079 --> 00:41:15.679
Thank you, universe.

00:41:16.239 --> 00:41:17.519
No one was hurt.

00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:19.519
I didn't get busted.

00:41:19.679 --> 00:41:22.000
I didn't crash, but I was aware of it.

00:41:22.239 --> 00:41:23.119
I was aware of it.

00:41:23.199 --> 00:41:24.800
And I thought, that's a line.

00:41:24.880 --> 00:41:26.000
That's a line, Patty.

00:41:26.079 --> 00:41:27.199
That is a line too far.

00:41:27.519 --> 00:41:29.760
I still didn't stop, but I quit driving.

00:41:30.320 --> 00:41:33.840
Um again, it's making those, as you said, almost those deals, isn't it?

00:41:34.159 --> 00:41:34.480
Exactly.

00:41:34.639 --> 00:41:36.400
I can still continue as long as I don't drive.

00:41:37.280 --> 00:41:37.840
Exactly.

00:41:38.079 --> 00:41:41.280
I can still continue as long as I don't make a fool of myself in public.

00:41:41.440 --> 00:41:47.920
So I would, you know, wait until I knew I wasn't gonna have to drive and I can drink at home and I wouldn't embarrass myself.

00:41:48.079 --> 00:41:53.119
You know, that when you're out of it looking back in, it's like, oh my God.

00:41:54.079 --> 00:41:54.719
Really?

00:41:55.119 --> 00:41:55.760
You know?

00:41:56.719 --> 00:41:59.679
I I and and you said, were you aware of it?

00:41:59.920 --> 00:42:01.440
Hell yeah, I was.

00:42:01.760 --> 00:42:05.280
Before I got into recovery and before I did therapy, not as much.

00:42:05.599 --> 00:42:07.039
I just wanted to numb out.

00:42:07.280 --> 00:42:13.039
After the fact, oh, I knew what I was doing, and I was like, yeah, but yeah, but I'm okay.

00:42:13.119 --> 00:42:17.199
Yeah, but yeah, but did drugs ever creep back in?

00:42:17.360 --> 00:42:20.239
Oh, was they the alcohol like that?

00:42:20.480 --> 00:42:24.239
It was it was only the alcohol at that point because the drugs scared me enough, you know.

00:42:24.400 --> 00:42:33.039
Thank God I didn't love, or I not only didn't love, thank God I was terrified of needles because I didn't know a lot of people that were shooting up at the time.

00:42:33.280 --> 00:42:40.400
And so I smoked heroin a couple of times because it was available and it sounded like, oh, this is fun, but thank God I didn't touch it.

00:42:40.480 --> 00:42:49.840
But there was uh because of needles, but there was enough of me with consciousness that said, ooh, that's really scary.

00:42:49.920 --> 00:42:53.760
And then once the kids were there, of course, yeah, it changes everything, doesn't it?

00:42:54.079 --> 00:42:54.400
Absolutely.

00:42:54.639 --> 00:43:02.559
Yeah, I mean, like for me, I'm I mean I've never been a a big drinker early, you know, but late teens, early twenties, I probably went pretty hard.

00:43:02.639 --> 00:43:05.840
But I think since having my daughter, that was when I really like now.

00:43:05.920 --> 00:43:08.320
I think I'll maybe have one pint and then that's me done.

00:43:08.400 --> 00:43:16.159
Yeah, because it's a taste thing, and like for me, you know, one thing I spoke about, and this is exploring non-alcoholic beers, but children do change everything.

00:43:16.320 --> 00:43:27.599
I think as well, looking at your story, and correct me if I'm wrong, but 70s and 80s, really big sort of drug culture in the media as well.

00:43:27.679 --> 00:43:33.119
Do you know it was almost like you know, I talk about reflections of looking at things set in the 70s and 80s?

00:43:33.360 --> 00:43:47.360
They really do push like the cannabis and getting high as part of the forefront of to almost establish that's the time period in which that scene is set in, but then there's also the element of well, you're naturally getting older as well, and our attitudes towards substances can change as well.

00:43:47.519 --> 00:43:55.760
Yeah, was that part of your story in terms of like the the media influences and all the the culture of it, or was it a case of just outgrowing?

00:43:56.480 --> 00:43:57.760
Both, both.

00:43:57.840 --> 00:44:00.320
I mean, there was a real glamour to it.

00:44:00.559 --> 00:44:01.199
Yeah, that's what I mean.

00:44:01.280 --> 00:44:02.719
Yeah, glamour's the word that I use.

00:44:02.880 --> 00:44:16.320
Yeah, it was just it was so cool and sort of edgy, and and you know, I I I thought of myself as a hippie, and it was so cool, and you know, that you know, weed is cool and acid's cool and yada yada.

00:44:16.559 --> 00:44:19.760
But then in the 80s, it became really cool to be in recovery.

00:44:19.840 --> 00:44:22.960
Oh so that was like sort of the shining time of recovery.

00:44:23.119 --> 00:44:25.280
So that was alluring as well.

00:44:26.480 --> 00:44:35.599
But to be honest, I saw, I saw what drugs were doing, and were you know, people in my high school, so many have died.

00:44:35.679 --> 00:44:39.360
Yeah, and so many have just gone down terrifying roads.

00:44:39.760 --> 00:44:41.920
And so I saw I saw what was going on.

00:44:42.000 --> 00:44:50.079
And as I said, unbelievably, you know, my my husband never, you know, never used drugs and alcohol much.

00:44:50.320 --> 00:44:54.880
So I didn't have a someone to play with anymore, you know, or on that level.

00:44:54.960 --> 00:45:01.119
And my sister got sober, and so she wasn't there, although she relapsed first, so I blame her.

00:45:01.280 --> 00:45:02.800
I relapsed after her.

00:45:03.280 --> 00:45:14.639
And then, but again, with the kids, you know, I was doing it to fit in with the mother's thing, but then I saw what was happening too, and I just sort of thought, no, this isn't a where did it go from there then?

00:45:14.800 --> 00:45:17.280
Because you said the yummy mummy's drinking the wine.

00:45:17.519 --> 00:45:21.840
You mentioned, you know, drinking and driving with your children, the car.

00:45:22.320 --> 00:45:33.440
Again, we we explore the rock bottom moment in in this podcast, and and not everyone does have a rock bottom moment, but you're heading to a direction now where, as we know, you eventually got sober.

00:45:34.159 --> 00:45:38.079
Where did it go and what changed for you to achieve sobriety again?

00:45:38.159 --> 00:45:38.719
That second step.

00:45:38.960 --> 00:45:40.400
Yeah, that's that's a good question.

00:45:40.559 --> 00:45:50.800
The first time I really did hit a rock bottom with that me that came back from the future, that the second time it was, you know, high bottom, as they say.

00:45:51.119 --> 00:45:54.880
Because interestingly, I was writing my first book.

00:45:55.039 --> 00:45:59.840
I was running in New Zealand, I started a charitable trust for teenagers.

00:46:00.079 --> 00:46:09.440
And then after I had been running this workshop for teenagers called Teen Esteam, a lot of the mothers came and said, We really like what you're doing with these teenagers.

00:46:09.599 --> 00:46:11.039
We want you to do with us.

00:46:11.280 --> 00:46:18.239
So a friend and I started a second charitable trust to run workshops with mothers, and then just women in general.

00:46:18.400 --> 00:46:20.639
So it became a workshop for women.

00:46:20.960 --> 00:46:27.599
And a lot of the women said when the workshop was over, we want something else.

00:46:27.679 --> 00:46:29.920
You know, can you make a workbook or something?

00:46:30.079 --> 00:46:34.079
And that's what started me writing my first book, which was called This Way Up.

00:46:34.320 --> 00:46:47.119
And it was a narrative, a story about a woman who's going through this sort of emptiness, and she's she's drinking and then stops drinking and has this whole awakening.

00:46:47.199 --> 00:46:51.199
And then the second half of the book is journaling workbook.

00:46:51.440 --> 00:46:54.719
And that was the nod toward the women in the workshop.

00:46:54.880 --> 00:46:56.320
That's what got me to write that.

00:46:56.480 --> 00:47:01.199
And it was also exploring what I was going through, that feeling of emptiness when my kids went to school.

00:47:01.280 --> 00:47:02.719
Like, what's my role now?

00:47:02.880 --> 00:47:03.760
What should I be doing?

00:47:03.920 --> 00:47:06.239
I feel, I feel empty, I feel lost.

00:47:06.480 --> 00:47:12.000
I put my whole self into being a good mother, you know, to break that multi-generational pattern.

00:47:12.559 --> 00:47:13.519
And they're doing great.

00:47:13.599 --> 00:47:15.119
And both of my boys are flying now.

00:47:15.199 --> 00:47:15.519
Thank you.

00:47:15.679 --> 00:47:16.000
Thank you.

00:47:16.400 --> 00:47:21.440
It sounds like at the time you you almost lacked a purpose when you when you relapse for the first time.

00:47:21.599 --> 00:47:27.039
I think, you know, once your children went off to school, trying to fill those days with no purpose.

00:47:27.440 --> 00:47:27.679
Exactly.

00:47:27.840 --> 00:47:28.960
And purpose is so important.

00:47:29.440 --> 00:47:31.280
Hugely important, hugely.

00:47:31.440 --> 00:47:36.880
And that that need for purpose and that need to be, you know, my kids are flying now.

00:47:36.960 --> 00:47:38.480
I mean, I'm so proud of both of them.

00:47:38.559 --> 00:47:42.400
And anybody could say, wow, you know, you you did great at mothering.

00:47:42.480 --> 00:47:43.519
And I then I know I have.

00:47:44.079 --> 00:47:45.039
I really do.

00:47:45.599 --> 00:47:48.239
And okay, that's great.

00:47:48.320 --> 00:47:52.320
And I know I did that well, and yet there's there's more, you know, there's more.

00:47:52.480 --> 00:47:54.000
And that search for purpose.

00:47:54.079 --> 00:47:55.679
And that was part of that workshop.

00:47:56.000 --> 00:48:02.159
So a lot of the book is around that search for purpose, that feeling of, you know, what am I what am I looking for here?

00:48:02.320 --> 00:48:05.360
So getting back to getting sober the second time.

00:48:05.599 --> 00:48:07.760
I was writing that book when I was still drinking.

00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:16.639
Okay, yeah, and in the book, it starts out that the protagonist gets in a car accident because she was drunk.

00:48:16.960 --> 00:48:21.039
And then she goes through this whole process of reawakening.

00:48:21.920 --> 00:48:29.199
And I'm about to publish my book, and I thought, you fucking hypocrite.

00:48:29.440 --> 00:48:30.159
Good God.

00:48:30.320 --> 00:48:30.559
What?

00:48:30.880 --> 00:48:33.360
And so that was a real awakening moment.

00:48:33.599 --> 00:48:36.000
And so I said, You cannot do this.

00:48:36.239 --> 00:48:44.159
You cannot go out in front of people and and talk about this book and then sit down and have a glass of wine, you know.

00:48:44.719 --> 00:48:47.440
Really, it just felt beyond hypocritical.

00:48:47.920 --> 00:48:55.360
And so my my book was published in 2016, and I got sober the second time in 2014.

00:48:55.760 --> 00:48:58.559
And I got sober at first alone.

00:48:58.639 --> 00:49:05.360
I just quit drinking, but I missed that community, that, you know, that the opposite of addiction is it's sobriety.

00:49:05.519 --> 00:49:10.400
And I was sobri I was sober for several months, and then another one of these higher power moments.

00:49:10.559 --> 00:49:23.280
I was in a coffee shop in this small town that I was talking about in um in Thames in New Zealand, and this guy walked in the coffee shop that I recognized from the meetings.

00:49:23.440 --> 00:49:30.400
And he walked in with this beautiful woman with this flowing, crazy gray hair on this flowing skirt.

00:49:30.480 --> 00:49:33.679
And I thought, wow, that's what I need.

00:49:33.840 --> 00:49:37.440
And he sat down and I walked over and I said, You know, hi, do you remember me?

00:49:37.519 --> 00:49:39.039
And he said, Oh, yeah, I do remember you.

00:49:39.119 --> 00:49:39.840
It's been a long time.

00:49:39.920 --> 00:49:40.559
How have you been?

00:49:40.639 --> 00:49:42.880
I said, Well, I'm doing well now, but it's been a while.

00:49:43.039 --> 00:49:45.920
And he said, you know, he asked me a couple of questions.

00:49:46.079 --> 00:49:50.400
I said, you know, it's really great to see you, but I want to talk to her.

00:49:50.639 --> 00:49:53.199
And I introduced myself and I said, Are you sober too?

00:49:53.280 --> 00:49:54.559
And she said, I sure am.

00:49:54.800 --> 00:49:57.599
And I said, I really want a woman's meeting.

00:49:57.679 --> 00:49:58.320
Do you know of one?

00:49:58.480 --> 00:50:00.400
And she said, Nope, but let's start one.

00:50:00.559 --> 00:50:00.800
Wow.

00:50:01.039 --> 00:50:03.199
And that was, you know, another one of those moments.

00:50:03.760 --> 00:50:05.760
And so her name's Rosie.

00:50:06.000 --> 00:50:10.480
And Rosie and I started a meeting in Thames in 2014.

00:50:10.960 --> 00:50:18.000
And that's what eventually got me to write my second book, which this is for you.

00:50:18.239 --> 00:50:19.519
Oh, oh, thank you.

00:50:19.760 --> 00:50:22.800
Um, that moment called Recovery Road Trip.

00:50:22.880 --> 00:50:35.280
And it's a story about a woman, again, that search for self, and that she is now sober, but but still feeling like she's lacking something.

00:50:35.440 --> 00:50:40.079
Because my second time in sobriety, I didn't have the same level of pink cloud.

00:50:40.239 --> 00:50:41.280
I had gone through that.

00:50:41.519 --> 00:50:48.239
And I was grateful beyond measure that I was sober again, but I I needed more.

00:50:48.400 --> 00:50:48.639
Yeah.

00:50:48.880 --> 00:50:52.800
And so that's something that Rosie and I explored together.

00:50:53.119 --> 00:51:01.840
And we began a meeting in Thames where we said, this is not just AA, this is not just NA.

00:51:02.239 --> 00:51:11.039
We want you to come to a meeting and talk about whatever fucking addiction is up for you because addiction is addiction, is addiction.

00:51:11.280 --> 00:51:17.840
So if you are feeling like you're trying to fill up that empty hole with food, come on in and talk about it.

00:51:18.000 --> 00:51:21.679
If you are doing it with porn, come on in and talk about it.

00:51:21.840 --> 00:51:30.719
If you're doing it with drugs or alcohol or any substance, come and talk about it because addiction is addiction, is addiction.

00:51:30.880 --> 00:51:34.480
And we are not going to tell you that you can only talk about alcohol here.

00:51:34.559 --> 00:51:37.199
And if you're worried about your never wanted, then go there and it's.

00:51:37.599 --> 00:51:38.639
That sometimes happens, doesn't it?

00:51:39.360 --> 00:51:40.559
It's like you're in the wrong place.

00:51:41.280 --> 00:51:47.840
I know people with alcohol problems actually prefer the environment of CA because they feel they're amongst more like-minded people.

00:51:48.320 --> 00:51:51.760
And I just think, as you've said, addiction is addiction is addiction.

00:51:51.840 --> 00:51:52.079
Yeah.

00:51:52.320 --> 00:52:00.000
I know I've never been into these rooms, but surely the similarities of it just must cross, and a group where we can just discuss everything.

00:52:00.159 --> 00:52:14.480
That makes more sense to me because I often think I'm I'm the volunteer lead for our service, and one of one of the staff members that likes our service now, he talks about his big breakthrough came from being in a room and it was called the day rehab room.

00:52:14.559 --> 00:52:19.280
And it was something that they did at the end of the trim, it was an abstinence-based group as at the renew service.

00:52:19.440 --> 00:52:29.360
And he said the kind of the where the penny really dropped for him was he was good in this group, he was sober, but he wasn't being honest about all the other things that you know surround his life.

00:52:29.519 --> 00:52:34.400
And it wasn't until someone challenged him and said, You're full of shit, and he was like, I'm not full of shit.

00:52:34.480 --> 00:52:38.400
And in the end, he said he left that meeting really angry, and he went home.

00:52:38.480 --> 00:52:42.880
And as he's on the bus home, he's thinking, But I'm angry, but he's right, I wasn't being honest.

00:52:43.280 --> 00:52:49.039
But that breakthrough came from somebody with a drug addiction problem.

00:52:49.199 --> 00:53:02.239
He was alcohol, and I have said this: there's nothing wrong with mixing those groups because I think there's an integrity and an honesty that can transcend the substance, and it's about the reason behind the substance misuse.

00:53:02.320 --> 00:53:09.199
And I wonder, had he maybe not had that interaction that day with that guy, where would his life have gone?

00:53:09.360 --> 00:53:12.320
Because I know from his journey that was such a pivotal moment.

00:53:12.480 --> 00:53:30.719
Yeah, and I think getting these rooms to mix and to talk about the the almost like the root cause of the addiction, of the void, doesn't matter what what the what it is, it's what are you what you escaping from is maybe the way I would look at it.

00:53:30.960 --> 00:53:31.679
Absolutely.

00:53:31.920 --> 00:53:39.840
And you know, I mean I love what Gabor Mate says, you know, that whatever your addiction is, it served the purpose.

00:53:39.920 --> 00:53:47.119
Yeah, you were looking to end the pain, to end whatever was happening for you due to that trauma.

00:53:47.760 --> 00:53:52.320
And so it did the job until it doesn't.

00:53:52.559 --> 00:53:54.960
And it doesn't matter which one it is.

00:53:55.039 --> 00:54:08.960
You know, that's that's the hard part with 12-step programs, is the ones that are very pedantic that do say, this is for alcohol, this is for drugs, this is for shopping, this is for porn, you know.

00:54:09.599 --> 00:54:18.400
When we're all trying to deal with that darkness that we tried to deal with, that we've tried to numb out, that we tried to escape from.

00:54:18.719 --> 00:54:25.679
And so that's what we just like you said, Matt, we've got to find the root of that first.

00:54:26.000 --> 00:54:51.280
And and the other thing that that was really hard for me in in sort of traditional 12-step meetings, and I talk about that in my book in Recovery Road Trip, that I, you know, I I really pushed back, even though I'm I'm still in 12-step recovery, I really pushed back against 12-step, and I've gotten some flack about it, because I talk about it in the book, because I I don't believe in pedantic big book thumping.

00:54:51.440 --> 00:55:01.280
I think that is a mistake, and I think that drives people away, especially a lot of women who have worked more with women because of the sort of patriarchal nature of it.

00:55:01.440 --> 00:55:03.280
But I digress.

00:55:05.039 --> 00:55:18.880
It's so important to find that root, and when you get into those real pedantic meetings, they say all you need to do is not pick up a drink or a drug and come to meetings.

00:55:19.199 --> 00:55:20.559
And I don't believe that's true.

00:55:20.960 --> 00:55:24.320
Because we have to deal with, as you said, with the root of it.

00:55:24.480 --> 00:55:34.239
And the only way that I know that one can deal with the root of it is getting some kind of therapy, doing something where you are unearthing it.

00:55:34.880 --> 00:55:46.079
Because you may just, you know, sit in a room, hold on tight to the table, and work your way through it, but you're not getting to the root of it.

00:55:46.400 --> 00:56:00.719
You know, and I think you really do have to explore that that root of it, because the the idea of people in addiction being lazy or lack of intelligence, you know, and and and that's why they're using substances.

00:56:00.880 --> 00:56:08.880
And we spoke about it earlier, that almost that waste of space identity that people are, you know, having thrust upon them because of their substance misuse.

00:56:08.960 --> 00:56:43.760
When I think, you know, talking to yourself, talking to so many people on this podcast, I start to question that and and think it's less laziness, it's less, you know what, it's less trying to escape, and I think it's more trying to maybe fill, you know, we talked about filling the void, but I think there's a trying to find a deeper meaning because maybe you just feel like you've got I don't know how to explain it, but an intelligence that isn't really hitting the surface yet, you know, things that haven't been explored.

00:56:44.000 --> 00:56:58.960
I just don't think it is about laziness, I think it's about a lack of meaning and trying to find meaning and the exploration that can come with substance misuse can make people feel numb to that need of a lack of meaning.

00:56:59.199 --> 00:56:59.599
That's it.

00:56:59.840 --> 00:57:00.719
Does that make sense?

00:57:00.880 --> 00:57:02.320
Oh, it makes perfect sense.

00:57:02.480 --> 00:57:03.360
I I totally agree.

00:57:03.440 --> 00:57:09.440
It's and if you look at addicts of any any way, shape, or form, they are not lazy.

00:57:09.599 --> 00:57:12.559
No, no, there's a lot of work that goes into this.

00:57:13.039 --> 00:57:13.840
Do you know funny enough?

00:57:13.920 --> 00:57:18.800
We we said that before, we talked about transferable skills, and it was this idea that is like, do you know to be a drug dealer?

00:57:19.039 --> 00:57:22.239
Well, you've got to be good at accounting, you've got to be good at understanding support.

00:57:22.400 --> 00:57:29.519
And it's like taking all these transferable skills from there, you'd be able to walk into quite a lot of jobs based on the experiences that you had.

00:57:29.679 --> 00:57:34.159
The idea of keeping contact, who owes money to who, yeah, having all that understanding.

00:57:34.239 --> 00:57:42.639
If you if you channel it into somewhere maybe more productive, there is there is a skill set in being a drug in being a drug user, isn't there?

00:57:42.800 --> 00:57:43.760
Oh, absolutely.

00:57:43.920 --> 00:57:45.519
Yeah, completely.

00:57:45.760 --> 00:57:51.039
So, no, it's not, it's not you know that that whole idea of lazy and waste of space.

00:57:51.199 --> 00:57:53.440
I mean, I I really push back against that.

00:57:54.159 --> 00:57:56.800
But you know, everybody has to find what works for them.

00:57:56.960 --> 00:58:01.280
You know, I I push back on 12-step in the book, but I'm in 12-step.

00:58:01.360 --> 00:58:04.320
Yes, because I really love that community feel.

00:58:04.559 --> 00:58:07.519
I I'm very much drawn to the spiritual element.

00:58:07.760 --> 00:58:18.000
Um, even though I'm, you know, a recovering Catholic, I I very much am drawn to that that higher power inner piece.

00:58:18.559 --> 00:58:21.840
But I loved the book, Quit Like a Woman.

00:58:22.000 --> 00:58:39.360
And she's very anti-12 step, but she talks very specifically about being a woman and addiction, and especially how, you know, with alcohol, especially, how you know, the whole alcohol industry has just duped us, you know.

00:58:39.519 --> 00:58:51.840
I I have just a real passion for that, that they the alcohol industry knows exactly what alcohol does to our body, and especially to women's bodies.

00:58:51.920 --> 00:58:54.800
Well, it does a lot to men's bodies too, but that's my story.

00:58:55.199 --> 00:58:58.559
It's linked to breast cancers and so many, so many cancers, isn't it?

00:58:58.719 --> 00:58:59.280
Alcohol is related.

00:58:59.840 --> 00:59:02.079
Yeah, and it's I mean, directly related.

00:59:02.239 --> 00:59:12.000
That the the studies are you know conclusive, and yet, like in the past with tobacco, they keep pushing it.

00:59:12.320 --> 00:59:25.119
You know, now it's illegal to push tobacco, you know, that you have to have the ads that connect it and they only sell it at certain places and it's for certain ages, and they can't be on the ads, can't be on TV, etc.

00:59:25.440 --> 00:59:32.400
But alcohol is still, you know, used to promote sports teams and used to promote, you know, certain uh gatherings.

00:59:32.800 --> 00:59:34.400
It's such a profitable market, isn't it?

00:59:34.480 --> 00:59:48.880
But I I do often wonder, you know, in the same way that I mean, there's a a place where in Hull where I'm from, where I vividly remember there was a giant billboard for Lambert and Butler cigarettes, and it was there for God knows how long, but it was always there, and you you would never see that now.

00:59:49.199 --> 00:59:52.960
And as you said, you know, tobacco products can't be advertised in the way that they used to.

00:59:53.119 --> 00:59:55.519
And I often think about that with alcohol, you know.

00:59:55.760 --> 00:59:59.760
Will we see in maybe 10, 20 years from now that alcohol, yes, it's it's insane.

01:00:00.159 --> 01:00:04.480
Society, it's legal, but it's no longer allowed to be advertised in the way that it used to be.

01:00:04.639 --> 01:00:06.559
Is that somewhere where we'll go eventually?

01:00:06.880 --> 01:00:07.599
I think we will.

01:00:07.760 --> 01:00:09.519
I really do, because they're starting.

01:00:10.000 --> 01:00:12.719
I lived in New Zealand for over 30 years.

01:00:12.800 --> 01:00:15.840
I I now live in Portugal because my kids both came to Europe.

01:00:15.920 --> 01:00:18.480
So I flew in from Portugal this morning.

01:00:19.039 --> 01:00:28.880
But in New Zealand, it they had there was it was a requirement to put a notice on alcohol about pregnancy and alcohol.

01:00:29.119 --> 01:00:31.519
So they're they're moving toward that.

01:00:31.760 --> 01:00:39.280
And I think that more and more there's a growing awareness of that tie with alcohol and cancer.

01:00:39.440 --> 01:00:41.199
I mean, alcohol is toxic.

01:00:41.280 --> 01:00:41.440
Yeah.

01:00:41.599 --> 01:00:43.280
It is toxic to our system.

01:00:43.519 --> 01:00:45.679
You know, it it makes you sick.

01:00:46.000 --> 01:00:54.400
And yet it is just seen, you know, the advertisements, it's it's just seen as glamorous and fun.

01:00:54.639 --> 01:01:12.079
And you go on any social media, and there's, you know, mommy needs vodka and the mother's wine group, and our book group reads wine labels, and there's all kinds of, you know, fun little memes around especially women.

01:01:12.559 --> 01:01:25.519
I think even I mean we did we discussed it in an episode not so long ago, but even drinks like the pink gin and things like that, it's really and you know, and and prosecco with the the way it's really catered to the female market.

01:01:25.760 --> 01:01:26.880
Absolutely, you know.

01:01:27.199 --> 01:01:30.079
Happy hour for mums after school, that's on near my local pub.

01:01:30.159 --> 01:01:34.880
And I think it's like do you know two for one on cocktails from 5 till 7 pm or something like that?

01:01:35.199 --> 01:01:40.400
You know, it's interesting how it how it is really still pushed to that to that level.

01:01:40.559 --> 01:01:40.880
Yep.

01:01:41.119 --> 01:01:47.440
For you now then, you know, you created this second women's group in in New Zealand.

01:01:48.639 --> 01:01:53.119
What is your recovery community like now in Portugal?

01:01:54.239 --> 01:01:56.719
And do you miss your old recovery community?

01:01:57.119 --> 01:02:10.000
Well, my recovery community, I mean, I miss connection with with people one-on-one, like my my dear friend who's in recovery road trips, her voice was with me the whole trip, Rosie and Rosie and I are still in close contact.

01:02:10.159 --> 01:02:11.440
But it's on Zoom.

01:02:11.679 --> 01:02:16.079
So I uh I can still go to my wonders of modern technology.

01:02:16.639 --> 01:02:17.440
Exactly, exactly.

01:02:17.599 --> 01:02:20.400
And and you know, tied into that modern technology.

01:02:20.480 --> 01:02:34.639
When I moved to Portugal, I messaged someone on Facebook in a private message about, you know, does anyone know about any 12-step meetings near where I'm living, near Porto?

01:02:34.880 --> 01:02:45.280
And it was a man that answered and said, I know a woman because in 12-step they try and keep the gender separate because there's a lot of merging of addicts.

01:02:45.440 --> 01:02:47.920
So they try and keep it separate, at least at first.

01:02:48.320 --> 01:02:50.000
Because isn't that a rule as well in addiction?

01:02:50.400 --> 01:02:50.480
Yeah.

01:02:50.559 --> 01:02:50.639
Yeah.

01:02:53.440 --> 01:02:53.599
Exactly.

01:02:53.760 --> 01:02:56.400
Is that in general or just with anybody else in a fellowship?

01:02:56.719 --> 01:02:57.519
It's in general, is it?

01:02:57.760 --> 01:02:58.480
It's in general, yeah.

01:02:58.559 --> 01:03:05.519
Just because you're your your mind's still clearing and it's sort of like don't put your dependence on their drug or alcohol on this person.

01:03:05.599 --> 01:03:07.760
Don't make that person your new higher power.

01:03:08.159 --> 01:03:10.000
How does that work for someone like yourself who?

01:03:10.079 --> 01:03:17.519
I mean, you you've hinted at being in previous codependent relationships, but having a husband and then going into those environments, what was the sort of general feel for that?

01:03:17.599 --> 01:03:18.239
Or the feedback.

01:03:18.320 --> 01:03:19.199
Well, Jeff and I had to be.

01:03:19.360 --> 01:03:21.760
They're not going to say leave your husband and focus on recovery, of course.

01:03:22.079 --> 01:03:25.519
Jeff and I, Jeff and I had been together for a lot of years before I got sober.

01:03:25.679 --> 01:03:26.800
And we did a lot of therapy.

01:03:26.960 --> 01:03:27.119
Okay.

01:03:27.519 --> 01:03:30.880
That's that's the truth, you know, in terms of that that history.

01:03:31.039 --> 01:03:34.079
We did a lot of therapy and we got through some very bumpy patches.

01:03:34.320 --> 01:03:37.360
And yeah, that that's a whole other piece.

01:03:37.920 --> 01:03:41.199
But I was, oh, the technology.

01:03:41.440 --> 01:03:46.639
I wrote to somebody when I got to Portugal on Facebook, got a direct message.

01:03:46.800 --> 01:03:50.559
He told me about a woman who lived about a half an hour north of me.

01:03:50.719 --> 01:03:51.920
I contacted her.

01:03:52.079 --> 01:03:54.000
I said, her name is Vonda.

01:03:54.079 --> 01:03:57.119
And I said, Vonda, you know, I'm looking for a meeting, blah, blah, blah.

01:03:57.280 --> 01:03:58.480
And she said, let's start one.

01:03:58.639 --> 01:04:03.599
So again, I I truly believe in in coincidence and synchronicity.

01:04:03.840 --> 01:04:11.199
I like this idea that you just go to all these different places across the world, start off like female-only fellowship groups, and then leave and go to another one.

01:04:11.280 --> 01:04:12.960
It's just jumping from place to place.

01:04:13.280 --> 01:04:14.159
That's what it sounds like.

01:04:14.239 --> 01:04:15.440
And it's not a bad thing, is it?

01:04:15.840 --> 01:04:16.639
No, I'm not sure.

01:04:17.920 --> 01:04:22.400
Yeah, you're leaving places in it in a in a better way than where you found them almost.

01:04:22.639 --> 01:04:22.960
Thank you.

01:04:23.119 --> 01:04:23.440
Thank you.

01:04:23.519 --> 01:04:24.719
I like to think of it that way.

01:04:24.800 --> 01:04:29.920
But but yeah, so my friend Vonda and I started a meeting and and that's started growing.

01:04:30.079 --> 01:04:39.840
I've been in in this area in Portugal for about a year and a half, and there's a couple of meetings that have started that we sort of instigated, and uh, and that's really cool.

01:04:40.079 --> 01:04:49.760
And yeah, it's uh I needed that community and I needed to feel like okay, I can I can plant I can plant some seeds here.

01:04:49.920 --> 01:04:52.079
I mean, and I did the same thing with a book group.

01:04:52.239 --> 01:04:57.119
I reached out on social media and I said, you know, I'm here.

01:04:57.519 --> 01:04:58.400
Is there a book group?

01:04:58.559 --> 01:05:01.440
I met a woman online and she said no, but let's start one.

01:05:01.519 --> 01:05:03.039
And so we started a book group.

01:05:03.440 --> 01:05:05.599
So that's how it works for you.

01:05:05.679 --> 01:05:05.840
Yeah.

01:05:06.079 --> 01:05:06.480
I like it.

01:05:06.559 --> 01:05:07.039
I like it.

01:05:07.199 --> 01:05:10.639
So someone who now has done, you know, multiple books.

01:05:10.800 --> 01:05:20.800
I suppose looking back at it, and we we talked a lot about different areas of it, but I suppose what do you think the main cause of someone with addiction is?

01:05:22.239 --> 01:05:23.840
That's a huge question, yeah.

01:05:25.519 --> 01:05:26.239
I just feel it.

01:05:26.400 --> 01:05:32.639
If someone with such experience in all these different areas and has spoken to someone, is there a commonality that you often see with people?

01:05:32.800 --> 01:05:41.360
I mean, we spoke earlier a little bit about that childhood trauma and that neglect, but I suppose is there is there a common pattern that you see where you go, that's where it is.

01:05:41.519 --> 01:05:42.400
I see that now.

01:05:42.480 --> 01:05:45.599
And almost where you can pinpoint the start of their stories.

01:05:46.239 --> 01:05:50.960
Well, I won't pick that up because I'm not an expert, and that's the truth.

01:05:51.119 --> 01:05:51.440
Yeah.

01:05:51.760 --> 01:06:02.719
However, in my experience with people I've spoken to within meetings and in Zoom, I would say it's tied into what Gabor Monte said.

01:06:02.800 --> 01:06:03.840
It's tied to trauma.

01:06:04.079 --> 01:06:10.000
And so, whatever that looks like, yeah, because trauma for me can look very different than trauma for you.

01:06:10.320 --> 01:06:10.480
Absolutely.

01:06:10.960 --> 01:06:20.800
And I used to downplay my trauma, as I said, because I wasn't beaten and I wasn't sexually abused, and and I I lived in a family that had enough money and yada yada.

01:06:21.119 --> 01:06:22.400
But that's my experience.

01:06:22.480 --> 01:06:26.960
I would agree with Gabor Mate, and I'm sure that you know it's like, well, I hope so.

01:06:27.599 --> 01:06:29.599
But that that's my experience.

01:06:29.760 --> 01:06:33.840
And when I was writing Recovery Road Tri, it was during COVID.

01:06:33.920 --> 01:06:41.840
And so I was going to a lot of meetings online, and I ended up talking to a lot of women who relapsed.

01:06:42.000 --> 01:06:45.760
That was one of the things that really became a springboard for Recovery Road Trip.

01:06:45.840 --> 01:06:48.400
And my question was, why did you relapse?

01:06:48.559 --> 01:06:48.880
Yeah.

01:06:49.440 --> 01:06:54.320
And invariably, so I'm not an expert and I don't know the answer to your question.

01:06:54.480 --> 01:06:57.519
I could just say past, but that's just not my style.

01:06:58.239 --> 01:06:58.960
Of course, I'm an expert.

01:07:00.960 --> 01:07:03.039
I think it's all opinion for me, anyways.

01:07:03.280 --> 01:07:09.360
Like you said, in the same way of you know, of trauma being subjective, I think so many people have a different opinion on what this is.

01:07:09.519 --> 01:07:16.079
But I think as someone who has traveled the world in the way that you had, I often wondered if there was like maybe a set thing where you thought that's where it is.

01:07:16.400 --> 01:07:32.000
Well, with that, when I spoke to the when I spoke to the women, and I spoke to a lot of women after after, like if somebody talked about relapse on the on the Zoom meeting, I would ask if I could talk to her afterwards, and I connected with a lot of women.

01:07:38.960 --> 01:07:47.840
And a group would say it was sexual abuse, another group would say it was addiction in the family, another group would say growing up in extreme poverty.

01:07:48.000 --> 01:07:52.320
So I I won't name it, but I can name poverty and filling up that hole.

01:07:52.400 --> 01:07:57.440
It's it's that empty hole that you want to fill up so you feel like you are whole.

01:07:58.480 --> 01:08:00.960
There's H O L E and W H O L E.

01:08:01.519 --> 01:08:10.000
And then the relapse, there was a real commonality with women of women not feeling seen in 12-step.

01:08:10.320 --> 01:08:23.600
Women that were in a 12-step meeting and feeling like the the patriarchalness of it, the pedantic big book thumping, the less than.

01:08:24.239 --> 01:08:28.000
So there was a lot of that, and that's why a lot of women relapsed.

01:08:28.239 --> 01:08:33.199
And then the reason so many women went back that I kept hearing from women.

01:08:33.279 --> 01:08:49.199
I mean, even though Recovery Road Trip is about a protagonist who goes through on this road trip, search for self, and a lot of it is me, but a lot of it, the majority of it is stories from other women that I've interspersed into Meg's journey.

01:08:49.920 --> 01:08:55.199
And it was that feeling of I wasn't comfortable in there, but I missed the community.

01:08:55.359 --> 01:08:59.840
I missed that connection, I miss that feeling of oneness.

01:09:00.079 --> 01:09:06.319
So the answer that came up again and again is there's a lot of meetings that suck.

01:09:06.479 --> 01:09:08.079
Find one that doesn't suck.

01:09:08.399 --> 01:09:14.800
Yeah, and that's a really good bit of advice because I think so many people go to a fellowship meeting of some kind of think, right?

01:09:14.880 --> 01:09:15.760
Well, that didn't work for me.

01:09:15.840 --> 01:09:17.680
And the reality is we maybe you're just in the wrong room.

01:09:17.840 --> 01:09:18.399
Yeah, exactly.

01:09:18.640 --> 01:09:23.920
You know, I think you talked earlier about naturally the connection and founding people.

01:09:24.000 --> 01:09:27.199
You said one of your one of your first meetings, you was like, I found my people.

01:09:27.600 --> 01:09:30.720
I think there's something in that, you know, find your people.

01:09:30.880 --> 01:09:31.199
Yeah.

01:09:31.600 --> 01:09:33.600
They might not be in that room, but they may be in another room.

01:09:33.680 --> 01:09:36.159
Maybe you've got to drive out of town for 40 minutes to an hour or something.

01:09:36.239 --> 01:09:36.720
Do you know what I mean?

01:09:36.800 --> 01:09:37.600
To the next meeting.

01:09:37.680 --> 01:09:37.920
Yeah.

01:09:38.079 --> 01:09:39.119
Try different meetings.

01:09:39.199 --> 01:09:41.359
Don't just try the one and think this isn't it.

01:09:41.520 --> 01:09:42.079
Yeah.

01:09:42.399 --> 01:09:43.279
Find your people.

01:09:43.840 --> 01:09:46.399
And and you don't necessarily have to find a 12-step.

01:09:46.640 --> 01:09:46.880
Exactly.

01:09:47.119 --> 01:09:50.800
You know, because a lot of people don't like 12-step.

01:09:50.880 --> 01:09:54.319
There is a real Christian element, and that's a big turnoff for a lot of people.

01:09:54.399 --> 01:09:59.199
And if you can't get past that, it's going to turn you off.

01:09:59.600 --> 01:10:01.840
But there's a lot of other alternatives.

01:10:02.000 --> 01:10:09.039
There's a lot of different levels of recovery where you can find that group, where you can find your people.

01:10:09.279 --> 01:10:11.279
You know, there's so many.

01:10:11.359 --> 01:10:11.920
There's so many.

01:10:12.000 --> 01:10:15.039
You all you have to do is look online, and there's a lot of alternatives.

01:10:15.680 --> 01:10:23.920
So if I could just say to anyone listening, if 12-step isn't for you, if you haven't found your people in a 12-step room, keep looking.

01:10:24.159 --> 01:10:35.039
There are so many different groups of recovery that is not, you know, aligned with necessarily 12-step, that isn't necessarily aligned with the spirituality.

01:10:35.119 --> 01:10:42.000
If that doesn't work for you, that that isn't, you know, according to a book that was written in the 30s that was aimed at men.

01:10:42.159 --> 01:10:42.399
Yeah.

01:10:42.560 --> 01:10:45.600
That really a lot of women struggle with.

01:10:45.840 --> 01:10:50.399
That there are still so many meetings where you can find your people.

01:10:50.640 --> 01:10:51.279
Absolutely.

01:10:51.600 --> 01:10:53.920
Patty, thank you so much for joining me on Believe People.

01:10:54.000 --> 01:10:58.720
Is there anything else you'd like to talk about before I wrap this up with my 10 questions?

01:10:59.680 --> 01:11:01.520
Um, I think we've covered it.

01:11:01.680 --> 01:11:06.239
I mean, I I feel like you've you really you you do this so well.

01:11:06.399 --> 01:11:09.279
You you pick up on things and and lead me down a path.

01:11:09.439 --> 01:11:09.840
So thank you.

01:11:10.000 --> 01:11:13.199
Well, I'm sure to be fair, with your knowledge, I'm sure we could talk all day.

01:11:13.279 --> 01:11:16.560
I feel like we've just come to a nice natural conclusion in this conversation, though.

01:11:16.640 --> 01:11:19.439
So my first question for you is what is your favorite word?

01:11:19.760 --> 01:11:22.880
My favorite word, enthusiastic.

01:11:23.199 --> 01:11:24.479
Least favorite word.

01:11:25.359 --> 01:11:25.920
Boring.

01:11:26.159 --> 01:11:27.920
What sound or noise do you love?

01:11:28.159 --> 01:11:29.119
The sound of the ocean.

01:11:29.439 --> 01:11:30.640
Sound or noise do you hear?

01:11:30.800 --> 01:11:37.039
Of screeching women at children.

01:11:37.359 --> 01:11:38.800
Tell me something that excites you.

01:11:40.800 --> 01:11:46.399
Being with my grand my sons, and especially my grandson Theodore.

01:11:46.720 --> 01:11:48.479
Tell me something that doesn't excite you.

01:11:49.119 --> 01:11:52.000
Being with people who aren't curious.

01:11:52.640 --> 01:11:54.880
What job would you like to do?

01:11:54.960 --> 01:11:57.439
If you could do anything else in the world, what would it be?

01:11:57.680 --> 01:11:59.760
Oh, I I love doing this.

01:11:59.840 --> 01:12:06.319
I know it sounds hokey, but you know, I love writing and then I love sitting and talking to people about what fills me up.

01:12:06.399 --> 01:12:08.239
So this, man, I could do this all day.

01:12:08.319 --> 01:12:08.640
I love it.

01:12:09.119 --> 01:12:09.439
Thank you.

01:12:09.600 --> 01:12:11.760
What is the least thing you'd like to do?

01:12:12.000 --> 01:12:14.079
Worst job imaginable for you personally?

01:12:14.399 --> 01:12:18.960
Repetitive, factory repeating thing over and over.

01:12:19.279 --> 01:12:20.319
Favorite swear word.

01:12:20.720 --> 01:12:21.359
Fuck.

01:12:21.680 --> 01:12:25.600
And lastly, what's like to God say it when you arrive at the Pelegates?

01:12:28.720 --> 01:12:30.239
You inspired a lot of people.

01:12:30.479 --> 01:12:30.960
That's lovely.

01:12:31.039 --> 01:12:33.359
Patty, thank you so much for joining me on Believe in People.

01:12:33.520 --> 01:12:34.319
Thank you so much, Matt.

01:12:34.560 --> 01:12:39.680
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01:12:39.840 --> 01:12:42.399
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01:12:42.720 --> 01:12:47.439
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