Dec. 20, 2022

Darren: The 12 Steps of Narcotics Anonymous, Opiate Addiction & Championing Recovery

Darren: The 12 Steps of Narcotics Anonymous, Opiate Addiction & Championing Recovery
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Darren: The 12 Steps of Narcotics Anonymous, Opiate Addiction & Championing Recovery
Darren: The 12 Steps of Narcotics Anonymous, Opiate Addiction & Championing Recovery
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Season 1

Matt talks to Darren about his journey from taking his first substance aged nine - right through to present day and his time with Narcotics Anonymous (NA).

NA offers recovery from the effects of addiction through working a twelve-step program, including regular attendance at group meetings. The group atmosphere provides help from peers and offers an ongoing support network for addicts who wish to pursue and maintain a drug-free lifestyle.

Click here to text our host, Matt, directly!

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📩 Contact: robbie@believeinpeoplepodcast.com
🎵 Music: “Jonathan Tortoise” by Christopher Tait (Belle Ghoul / Electric Six)

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🎙️ Facilitator: Matthew Butler
🎛️ Producer: Robbie Lawson
🏢 Network: ReNew

WEBVTT

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This is a new original recording.

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Hello and welcome to the Believe in People podcast.

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My name is Matthew Butler and I am your host, or as I like to say, your facilitator.

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Today I have with me Darren and he shares his story on addiction and his journey to recovery.

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So firstly, can you please just introduce yourself for me?

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My name is Darren Hilton.

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I'm 50 years old.

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I'm two years in recovery from drugs, addiction and I've just got a job as a recovery champion at Change Girl Live.

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I came through the groups, you know, like quite a long journey.

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I came through about 25 years of groups.

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Do you know what?

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You've been in...

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How long, I'll tell you what, when was the age when you first started using substances?

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About nine.

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So you were nine years old, and you're 50 years old now.

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Yeah.

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So that's a good 41 years of using substances, or thereabouts, give or take.

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It's obviously a couple of years of recovery.

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What was the first substance that you decided to use?

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Probably gas, probably butane, yeah, probably lighter gas.

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What made you think, this is a good idea, I'm going to use this?

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I don't know whether, do you know, once I put the first thing inside of me, I don't think I had any control over it.

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Okay.

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So what was that like then?

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Obviously, being at a young age, was there a culture thing?

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Because I remember when I was at school, all the kids were like, oh, if you sniff glue, you can get high.

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But it was Pritt sticks.

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There was no getting high with Pritt sticks.

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But I think because everyone else was doing it, I was like, yeah, I'm going to sniff this Pritt stick and see what it was.

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Was there something like that with the gas?

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What sort of brought that on?

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Yeah, it was kind of like, I'd say peer pressure, but I put myself in that situation.

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But it was a culture, you know.

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I believe it was a culture, yeah.

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Other people did it, like bigger boys.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Did you surround yourself with older kids?

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Yeah, at the time, yeah, just to feel part of it and feel better.

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Yeah, yeah, I get that.

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So using gas at Nairn, what was the next substance that you started to use after that?

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Well, it was gas and glue at the same time.

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So I'd say cannabis, roughly age of 10, 11.

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That's incredible, really, at that age.

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So what brought cannabis on?

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Was it similar sort of circumstances?

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Yeah, I suppose.

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Yeah, it was similar circumstances, yeah.

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Just...

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I'd seen people smoke it and have such a good laugh.

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Yeah.

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And it just was the dumb thing.

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Yeah.

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That's what people did.

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Yeah.

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What sort of year was this then that you started using cannabis?

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It would have been 1980.

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Okay.

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What was the culture like for drug use around that sort of time?

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Well, it wasn't really that big.

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Was it not?

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No.

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I was never in school.

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Yeah.

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How come?

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Because...

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Well, I'll go forward a little bit.

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I found out I've got ADHD at 49.

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Okay.

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And it wasn't recognised at school and there was none of it.

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So I was put in a naughty class.

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Yeah.

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So I'd be naughty, a bit like I do now, but in a more controlled way.

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Just going to that as well, that's interesting because so many people say, oh, they're so quick to diagnose things like autism and ADHD.

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There was none of that when we was at school.

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So like doctors are essentially just any sort of naughty behaviour.

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Yeah.

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ADHD, or any sort of, I'm going to use abnormal in quotations there, behaviour, autism.

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They're quite quick to come with that sort of diagnosis, where the reality is, someone like yourself, you've been suffering with ADHD for 49 years, and you only got that diagnosis two years ago, a year ago?

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No, about seven months ago.

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Really?

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What brought that on?

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Well, the 12 steps fix a lot of things, like 12 steps of Narcotics Anonymous.

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Yeah.

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But my sponsor says, look, I'm not a medical expert.

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If you think you need help, go find help.

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And I always knew something was wrong.

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I knew that it wasn't just addiction.

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I always knew something was wrong.

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And so I go to an adult learning thing, I don't take the retailing or the drugs, I just learn coping strategies.

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But yeah, and it all made sense, you know, when I'm getting expert advice, I'm an expert out now, everything just makes, I've walked about a decade and I'm sure this is undone.

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But then I don't like complaining now.

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Okay.

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So, like, I'll be doing one thing, you may have noticed, and then I'll think, no, I'll tell you what, I'll go do that, and then halfway between, maybe they'll just say, don't do any of them.

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Yeah.

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You know, but I'm learning to cope with that.

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Yeah.

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So, do you think that, obviously not having this diagnosis for ADHD, do you think a big part of using substances all this year has been, I suppose, escapism, a coping strategy, like...

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Do you think the two have gone hand in hand at all and you just haven't realised it?

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Yeah, 100%.

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Because like I said, I always knew there was an underlying issue.

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And I think with me, I smoked heroin because I wanted intravenous.

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I smoked it, but I was hyperactive.

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So every addict would be gouging and I'd be like, blah, blah, blah, for like eight hours at a time.

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Yeah, okay.

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And I just get a fast heart rate.

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The opposite effect rate, you see.

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Yeah, that's interesting.

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So you went from gas and glue to cannabis at the age of like 9, 10.

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Where did you go from there?

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Well, I didn't go to school, but I went to school and...

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Just a bit later on, 14, 15, started night clubbing at an early age and got introduced to classes, cocaine, ecstasy.

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And was there any sort of hesitation about using them substances or do you think because you'd already been using cannabis and it was quite quick to just like, yeah, I can have that?

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Yeah, there was a saying in them days, there's always one but I'm going two.

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Yeah.

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So I just do more than anybody else.

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Okay.

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For what reason?

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Was it kind of like a one-upmanship or...?

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No, that's just the way it was.

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I couldn't

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control it.

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So I've heard, especially in the sort of 80s and 90s when, I suppose, class A's and party drugs was quite commonly used, I've heard people say they realised they had a problem when everyone else was coming on a comedown or the night was sort of finishing.

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And they wanted to continue using substances?

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Would you say that was sort of the story for yourself?

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Yeah, most definitely.

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I'd never want the party to end.

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I'd be one of those who would come home and go to an all-nighter, come home and go to a cafe in the morning.

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So yeah, I didn't want the party to end.

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What point did you realise that was a problem?

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Do you know what?

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I've always kind of known that everything was a problem.

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I can't use against my will most of my life.

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Yeah.

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But I didn't know a way out.

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That's interesting.

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Tell me a little bit more about that

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though, using against your will.

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Because for some people, I think there's a big sort of misunderstanding of drug use where people think, you know what, if you want to stop using drugs, just stop using drugs.

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If you want to stop drinking, just stop drinking.

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Obviously, we know there's a lot of danger and that in itself could be quite dangerous.

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But why was that for you?

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If somebody said to you, why don't you just stop?

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What

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was going through your head when people would maybe ask that sort of question of you?

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I'd feel resentful, because I'd feel as though they didn't know what I was going through.

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Especially with family and friends, I'd feel a lot of resentment.

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I'd say, you can't stop smoking, and that's a bit too old.

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Yeah, so I'd feel a lot of resentment.

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The smoking thing is something I don't find interesting as a side note, because obviously working in substance misuse services ourselves, we're not there to tell people, don't use drugs, naturally.

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We're there to give harm reduction advice and for those that want recovery, aim for recovery.

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But there is an element of, I suppose, hypocrisy when those conversations are going on and then the amount of staff that's still at the back of the building are fagging it away sort of thing.

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So in terms that you say about creating resentment and stuff, how was that...

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At what point did your substance misuse start to have an impact on your family as well?

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You just spoke briefly about your parents then, I think.

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Well, I moved to, I got paroled from Moreland's Prison in 1989 to go live with my mother and stepfathers in East London.

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And I lived there about just over nine and a half years.

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I had real good jobs, but I smoked cannabis all the way

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through.

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But I always knew that I was inhibited all the time from smoking weed, but I just couldn't stop.

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And then I moved back to Hull in 1998 from London, and then everybody I knew, they had their own businesses.

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I don't like the word function addict, because it's not a thing for me, because addiction is internal for me.

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Yeah, they all did heroin, but you had a real nice job, so it was quite attractive.

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And as soon as I did it, I had that hyperactive feel-good effect.

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So that was the first time you used heroin around that age?

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Yeah, I was about 27, 28.

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I was quite old, really.

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Yeah, considering you started using other substances at such an early age, you might have thought that escalation to heroin would have come much younger.

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Yeah.

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You said about prison then.

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What was the circumstances around that?

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Whew.

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Which one?

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Well, we'll tell you on the first time.

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The first time I went to prison.

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I first went to prison when I was 15.

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I was a child in adult prison.

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Okay.

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But I had loads of fear on going in.

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But when I went in, there was like four or five of my classmates.

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Oh, really?

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Yeah, from the school on the wing selling all the drugs.

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So I felt at home.

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Yeah.

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It was an holiday camp.

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Yeah.

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It was a good laugh.

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It's bizarre that that is the sort of feelings of going to prison, though.

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That it felt like more of a...

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More of a holiday.

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Because that happens a lot, doesn't it, with people?

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People get, well, there's a word for it.

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Institutionalized.

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Institutionalized, yeah.

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Where people are just in and out of prison all the time, but feel more comfort in prison.

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Can you relate

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to that?

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Yeah, I can do.

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But that wasn't my story.

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But I can relate to it because I've seen it.

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But yeah, I can't relate to it personally because I just want it out every day.

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But I tell myself, I want you using drugs every day.

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for nearly 18 months of being in there and then get a taxi from the gate to go get whatever drug I was on at the time.

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Why do you think that was then?

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Because obviously it wasn't a physical dependency, was it, or anything, but the second you got out of prison you wanted to use substances?

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Yeah, just, you know...

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Because you should, you could do it, can't you?

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Obviously, to be absent for that long, for 18 months, did you say?

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Yeah, yeah, and I did do drugs in jail, I was well against it.

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Exactly, yeah, so what was the reason?

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So just go and do it the second you got out then?

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You know what, thinking back, in prison I was always busy and then sometimes I'm left to my own devices.

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I just had to change the way I feel because I couldn't sit in self.

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That's been my problem, sitting in self.

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Tell me what you mean by sitting in self.

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Not knowing the person who I am and having all these false coping mechanisms I've created.

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Going back to my childhood, which I found out in the 12 Steps, I found out a lot about that trauma, what's triggered me to use.

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I'm one of four siblings, two brothers and a sister.

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We all smoked cannabis when I was younger, but I'm the only one who carried it on.

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And we all had similar experiences.

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Because my mum and dad divorced when I was four or five.

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You know, my dad brought four of us, which was real unusual in them days, 1970s.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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But normally the mum brings them up, I suppose, yeah.

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And I was the one who carried on.

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But I remember sat at the top of the stairs, you know, crying my eyes out, you know, watching my mum leave with her bags, you know.

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And I didn't think I'd seen her for five years.

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So I'd created all these things in my head, you know, but I did because she's told me recently.

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Yeah.

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And now I've learned...

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that she had loads of mental health problems, you know, what was going on.

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Because I resented her.

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Yeah.

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All my life.

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You wouldn't

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have understood, would you?

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No.

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But even in later life.

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Yeah.

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I still had the resentment, but although I loved her to death, I didn't understand what it's like.

00:12:22.412 --> 00:12:24.793
So was that, you talked a little bit about trauma then.

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Obviously, you know, not losing your mum in the sense of her, you know, passing away or anything, but losing your mum.

00:12:33.043 --> 00:12:35.325
Your mum as a child is a big part of your life, isn't it?

00:12:35.345 --> 00:12:35.445
Yeah.

00:12:35.465 --> 00:12:36.365
Do you know what I mean?

00:12:36.525 --> 00:12:36.605
Yeah.

00:12:37.057 --> 00:12:39.341
Was that the trauma that you think set you off then?

00:12:39.500 --> 00:12:41.363
Yeah, it is the trauma.

00:12:41.423 --> 00:12:42.605
And you feel that 100%?

00:12:42.684 --> 00:12:45.368
Yeah, as a matter of fact.

00:12:45.469 --> 00:12:46.830
For me, yeah.

00:12:47.530 --> 00:12:48.591
How did your dad cope with you?

00:12:48.673 --> 00:12:53.038
Obviously because 9, 10 years in substances then, was he aware of it?

00:12:54.019 --> 00:12:54.600
Not really.

00:12:54.700 --> 00:12:55.520
I was out of control.

00:12:57.202 --> 00:12:58.544
There's not a lot they could have done.

00:13:00.427 --> 00:13:01.828
School wouldn't expel me.

00:13:03.553 --> 00:13:04.556
But I wanted to expel him.

00:13:04.576 --> 00:13:07.581
And at a different time, your dad wouldn't have known about things like ADHD.

00:13:07.821 --> 00:13:08.241
No, no, no.

00:13:08.261 --> 00:13:09.884
To him, you might have just been a little shit sort of thing.

00:13:09.924 --> 00:13:10.466
Yeah, that's what I thought.

00:13:10.485 --> 00:13:13.711
And then that's when they can't, I suppose, like, what can you do?

00:13:15.293 --> 00:13:17.118
What was that relationship like with your dad then?

00:13:17.337 --> 00:13:17.818
Beautiful.

00:13:18.019 --> 00:13:18.659
Yeah?

00:13:18.880 --> 00:13:20.363
He was a bookmaker.

00:13:20.683 --> 00:13:20.903
Yeah.

00:13:21.284 --> 00:13:21.544
Oh, really?

00:13:21.806 --> 00:13:22.506
Yeah,

00:13:23.148 --> 00:13:23.369
yeah, yeah.

00:13:23.448 --> 00:13:23.950
That's cool.

00:13:23.970 --> 00:13:25.371
But it turned out he was an addict.

00:13:25.972 --> 00:13:26.333
Your dad?

00:13:26.413 --> 00:13:26.494
Yeah.

00:13:26.690 --> 00:13:28.371
Yeah, a gambling addict.

00:13:28.392 --> 00:13:29.092
Ah, interesting.

00:13:29.594 --> 00:13:31.056
An addict's all the same for me.

00:13:31.856 --> 00:13:35.743
So sometimes we'd have tons of money because it was a bookmaker.

00:13:35.783 --> 00:13:36.443
But do you know what?

00:13:36.803 --> 00:13:39.006
Every Christmas we had everything we'd ever wanted.

00:13:39.928 --> 00:13:41.770
He did the best he could, as I've learned.

00:13:41.791 --> 00:13:43.413
So there was a resentment there.

00:13:44.294 --> 00:13:45.537
Why did you resent your dad?

00:13:46.197 --> 00:13:48.581
This was part of my false belief system I created.

00:13:49.642 --> 00:13:52.025
One of the things was when we didn't have money,

00:13:52.418 --> 00:13:53.538
Okay,

00:13:53.698 --> 00:13:53.778
yeah.

00:13:54.480 --> 00:13:56.341
But it wasn't as long as I thought it was.

00:13:56.763 --> 00:13:56.842
Yeah.

00:13:56.863 --> 00:13:58.063
It's just my experience of it.

00:13:58.224 --> 00:14:00.125
Why do you think that time is like that in your head?

00:14:00.385 --> 00:14:02.609
Because it sounds like people have been away for longer.

00:14:02.908 --> 00:14:05.991
You've got this idea that people are away longer than you thought there was.

00:14:06.673 --> 00:14:07.013
Yeah.

00:14:07.033 --> 00:14:07.734
Why do you think that is?

00:14:07.754 --> 00:14:09.936
Do you think that's because you're using substances?

00:14:10.777 --> 00:14:17.283
Well, even before that, I've always tried to escape out of myself by whether it being what we used to do.

00:14:17.303 --> 00:14:18.725
We used to have community bonfires.

00:14:19.169 --> 00:14:20.692
As a kid, I used to collect wood.

00:14:21.133 --> 00:14:24.498
And I used to be obsessed about that between the age of four and nine.

00:14:24.697 --> 00:14:27.763
Because we used to have a telegraph pole as the central thing.

00:14:27.783 --> 00:14:29.666
There was massive community things.

00:14:29.706 --> 00:14:32.129
And I'd sneak out of my room every night at 2 a.m.

00:14:32.529 --> 00:14:34.232
just to go check on all the wood and mix.

00:14:34.673 --> 00:14:36.696
And, oh, we've got more wood than the next street.

00:14:37.197 --> 00:14:38.259
So I'd be really obsessive.

00:14:38.458 --> 00:14:39.860
Competitive almost as well.

00:14:39.900 --> 00:14:41.222
Yeah.

00:14:41.243 --> 00:14:42.826
Escaping self, you know, that's...

00:14:43.169 --> 00:14:45.331
And you used to go and do that at like 2 a.m.

00:14:45.412 --> 00:14:45.852
Yeah, yeah.

00:14:46.153 --> 00:14:46.913
None of the others was.

00:14:46.994 --> 00:14:50.317
I was just, oh, we've got this much wood and we've got more wood than them.

00:14:51.498 --> 00:14:53.340
Why do you think that was even important?

00:14:53.879 --> 00:14:54.400
Well, I don't know.

00:14:54.441 --> 00:14:56.623
The obsessive nature and I was obsessive.

00:14:56.643 --> 00:14:56.842
So it's

00:14:56.903 --> 00:14:58.083
almost like a byproduct of

00:14:58.323 --> 00:14:59.466
other sort of feelings.

00:14:59.586 --> 00:15:00.105
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:15:00.125 --> 00:15:01.447
Because I didn't know what that was.

00:15:01.847 --> 00:15:05.390
So I'm not in denial, but I don't understand it.

00:15:06.773 --> 00:15:08.374
So I was talking about, obviously you mentioned prison.

00:15:08.835 --> 00:15:10.416
I asked you what that was like.

00:15:10.436 --> 00:15:11.157
You said which time.

00:15:11.197 --> 00:15:12.457
Have you been in and out of prison a lot?

00:15:12.706 --> 00:15:13.628
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:15:13.668 --> 00:15:14.730
Well, it's always been a laugh.

00:15:15.852 --> 00:15:15.932
Yeah?

00:15:15.952 --> 00:15:16.433
I've been in...

00:15:17.596 --> 00:15:19.561
I was in my DPS.

00:15:20.863 --> 00:15:24.210
I got locked up for theft of 18,000 valium from my vets.

00:15:24.451 --> 00:15:24.691
Wow.

00:15:25.994 --> 00:15:28.940
Was that to use personally, sort of thing, or was it to deal?

00:15:29.481 --> 00:15:31.706
Well, put it this way, I lost three months of my life.

00:15:31.886 --> 00:15:32.246
Okay, yeah.

00:15:32.567 --> 00:15:32.769
And...

00:15:34.529 --> 00:15:40.298
Yeah, what I did is I actually, I was going out with a girl and she said, oh yeah, they're getting a Valium delivered today.

00:15:40.558 --> 00:15:41.240
Yeah.

00:15:41.259 --> 00:15:44.264
And that was just like, boom, like an hand grenade going off in my head.

00:15:44.284 --> 00:15:46.427
Because that was always my favourite drug.

00:15:46.668 --> 00:15:46.808
Yeah.

00:15:48.091 --> 00:15:51.034
What were you primarily getting into trouble for then when you was getting in trouble?

00:15:51.054 --> 00:15:52.596
Was it normally theft?

00:15:53.238 --> 00:15:55.041
I was addicted to the cash.

00:15:55.361 --> 00:15:55.721
Okay.

00:15:56.082 --> 00:15:58.405
You know, like finding a cash tin in an office.

00:15:58.606 --> 00:15:58.787
Yeah, yeah.

00:15:58.927 --> 00:15:59.908
It was such a thrill.

00:16:00.308 --> 00:16:00.710
Yeah, yeah.

00:16:00.730 --> 00:16:01.630
As good as any drug.

00:16:02.633 --> 00:16:02.712
Yeah.

00:16:02.732 --> 00:16:03.453
I'm not saying that.

00:16:03.553 --> 00:16:29.831
it almost i'm piecing things together here so you talked about that sort of obsessive nature you had people having like that wood and things like that this girl mentions that there's valium there and that's it that's all you can think about the hand grenade going off in your head do you think there's correlation between that obsessive nature and you committing these thefts oh yeah most definitely yeah yeah i'd just be Just a thrill.

00:16:29.851 --> 00:16:30.953
It was just a massive thrill.

00:16:31.495 --> 00:16:32.096
So it wasn't even...

00:16:32.557 --> 00:16:37.224
Was there times when you didn't even need what you were stealing and it was just the thrill of stealing?

00:16:37.244 --> 00:16:37.583
No.

00:16:37.865 --> 00:16:41.250
Okay, so everything you stole it was because you actually wanted it then?

00:16:41.591 --> 00:16:43.273
Yeah, even when I just smoked cannabis.

00:16:43.293 --> 00:16:46.097
I'm saying just, but even when I just smoked cannabis.

00:16:46.638 --> 00:16:48.822
I would beg at all the local schools when I was a kid.

00:16:49.802 --> 00:16:50.705
Multiple times.

00:16:51.865 --> 00:16:56.293
So in terms of a moral compass for me, I would know...

00:16:57.025 --> 00:16:57.866
Okay, I can't do it.

00:16:57.927 --> 00:16:58.368
That's wrong.

00:16:59.168 --> 00:17:02.753
Did you feel like you had a moral compass or was you just almost void of that?

00:17:03.253 --> 00:17:04.013
Yeah, I didn't care.

00:17:04.654 --> 00:17:06.557
I was a sociopath, I think.

00:17:08.420 --> 00:17:09.381
But then I would care.

00:17:09.401 --> 00:17:14.487
Then after I'd done it and spent the money, I would think, oh shit, you shouldn't have done that.

00:17:14.507 --> 00:17:16.930
So maybe I had a moral thing after the fact.

00:17:17.210 --> 00:17:22.817
Yeah, so I suppose the moral dilemma wouldn't come until after the act had already happened.

00:17:23.798 --> 00:17:26.020
So lots of crime being committed.

00:17:26.862 --> 00:17:26.942
Yeah.

00:17:27.394 --> 00:17:33.984
At what age was you committing crime just to fund a drug habit, or did that ever happen?

00:17:35.027 --> 00:17:36.528
Yeah, I was about 29.

00:17:36.829 --> 00:17:39.894
So was that when you just started after the opiates?

00:17:39.974 --> 00:17:40.335
Yeah.

00:17:41.396 --> 00:17:42.398
Yeah, that was 1999.

00:17:42.499 --> 00:17:43.140
Yeah, yeah.

00:17:44.241 --> 00:17:46.846
And when I got two a year, two a year, eight months, I think.

00:17:47.386 --> 00:17:48.970
So it had gone from kind of doing it for fun...

00:17:49.346 --> 00:17:50.366
to now doing it because...

00:17:50.406 --> 00:17:52.068
But the fun, but it was always money involved.

00:17:52.189 --> 00:17:52.910
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:17:52.930 --> 00:17:53.790
But now you need to.

00:17:54.090 --> 00:17:54.332
Yeah.

00:17:54.352 --> 00:17:54.491
Now you

00:17:54.511 --> 00:17:54.771
need to.

00:17:55.031 --> 00:17:55.472
I get that.

00:17:55.553 --> 00:17:56.134
That's interesting.

00:17:56.173 --> 00:17:57.015
And how long was you using?

00:17:57.134 --> 00:17:59.136
How long was you reduced to opiates for then?

00:18:01.539 --> 00:18:05.784
Until from 1998 to 2020.

00:18:05.923 --> 00:18:06.424
Oh, 22

00:18:06.444 --> 00:18:08.126
years then.

00:18:08.146 --> 00:18:10.048
That's a long time.

00:18:10.609 --> 00:18:11.730
Tell us a little bit about what the

00:18:11.810 --> 00:18:13.833
treatment system has been like for you over that time then.

00:18:14.334 --> 00:18:16.695
How come it took so long to get recovery?

00:18:16.757 --> 00:18:17.698
What is the difference to...

00:18:18.402 --> 00:18:24.048
tell you what, not the difference of what's going on in self right now, but is there a difference in the way services have

00:18:24.088 --> 00:18:28.773
been delivered to people with opiate addictions that made you think, right, this time I can do it?

00:18:28.994 --> 00:18:31.438
Yeah, I think there's definitely, I think it's shift.

00:18:31.518 --> 00:18:35.362
I think when I first came about, I think it was almost set as a male deficiency.

00:18:35.722 --> 00:18:35.962
Okay.

00:18:36.403 --> 00:18:38.987
You know, it used to be called a crime reduction initiative for one.

00:18:39.007 --> 00:18:40.087
It was, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:18:40.107 --> 00:18:40.648
Oh, it's changed.

00:18:40.769 --> 00:18:43.291
I think the emphasis has shifted.

00:18:43.311 --> 00:18:43.392
Yeah.

00:18:43.711 --> 00:19:28.548
I wasn't necessarily ready, but yeah, I think, you know, and I found that this time when i was willing to help myself i got more help you know yeah the services have definitely changed there's more emphasis on the user i used to think there was more emphasis on the staff than what there was the users you know yeah you know like their clinical supervision all they are you know yeah yeah yeah i get that and i'm glad you mentioned that book so moving from crime reduction initiatives to change, grow, live, because I think that's quite an important point in the sense of substance misuse and heroin addiction primarily was always seen as a criminal problem.

00:19:29.049 --> 00:19:33.834
And I think it's one of the things where you get told you are one thing's enough, you're going to believe it.

00:19:34.295 --> 00:19:42.550
And I imagine every letter you got through the door that said crime reduction initiative on it just kind of reaffirmed that belief of, I am a criminal.

00:19:42.750 --> 00:19:43.070
Yeah.

00:19:43.471 --> 00:19:52.741
And then you're absolutely right in terms of moving to Change Girl Live because what we saw was that more people was needing help for substances that weren't involved in the criminal justice system.

00:19:53.001 --> 00:19:53.442
Yeah, yeah, definitely.

00:19:53.663 --> 00:20:01.090
When I first started working there, we was working with people under the alcohol treatment requirements and the drug rehabilitation requirements, and that's all we was doing.

00:20:02.011 --> 00:20:09.421
Whereas to be seen as much more of a community issue, I suppose, is much more important, I guess, now.

00:20:10.481 --> 00:20:10.561
Yeah.

00:20:11.105 --> 00:20:12.086
So what was the change?

00:20:12.126 --> 00:20:13.848
We spoke a little bit then about the changes

00:20:13.929 --> 00:20:16.972
in self, changes in services.

00:20:17.433 --> 00:20:18.615
What was the change in self?

00:20:18.915 --> 00:20:21.038
Was there

00:20:21.097 --> 00:20:25.644
a rock-bottom moment for you where you were like, right, fuck, I need to get myself, so I don't know?

00:20:25.663 --> 00:20:26.003
Yeah, yeah.

00:20:26.044 --> 00:20:30.450
We have a saying in our class almost, the gift of desperation.

00:20:30.490 --> 00:20:30.910
Yeah.

00:20:31.070 --> 00:20:33.212
Because...

00:20:34.241 --> 00:20:34.762
You know what it was?

00:20:34.843 --> 00:20:37.948
It was people in forward trust and trying to go live downstairs.

00:20:38.288 --> 00:20:39.329
Challenging my beliefs.

00:20:40.070 --> 00:20:40.151
Yeah.

00:20:40.171 --> 00:20:42.355
You know, but in a way, what one, obviously.

00:20:42.375 --> 00:20:43.296
You didn't feel attacked.

00:20:43.476 --> 00:20:43.777
Yeah.

00:20:43.896 --> 00:20:44.397
Sort of thing, yeah.

00:20:44.417 --> 00:20:45.199
Well, I did sometimes.

00:20:45.259 --> 00:20:45.960
Yeah, I can imagine.

00:20:45.980 --> 00:20:46.681
But yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:20:47.162 --> 00:20:54.773
Yeah, and there was one instance where a forward trust worker, because I was in total denial for me, you know, I was eight stone.

00:20:55.013 --> 00:20:56.817
There's a picture of me in Reno if you haven't seen it.

00:20:57.157 --> 00:20:57.478
I might have.

00:20:57.858 --> 00:20:59.701
You know, what I hid.

00:20:59.721 --> 00:21:00.903
I might not then if you've hid it.

00:21:01.664 --> 00:21:01.845
And...

00:21:02.625 --> 00:21:04.288
Yeah, I was just in a little bit of denial.

00:21:04.347 --> 00:21:05.910
I could be in the service.

00:21:05.930 --> 00:21:06.931
This is one of my big things.

00:21:06.951 --> 00:21:14.740
I could go in the services, and the very definition of being there is saying, please help me, but I couldn't say, please help me.

00:21:15.099 --> 00:21:16.161
So when they say, are you all right?

00:21:16.181 --> 00:21:18.044
Yeah, I think it's this.

00:21:18.064 --> 00:21:19.965
Because I dress well, and I thought I could add it.

00:21:20.145 --> 00:21:21.386
Yeah.

00:21:21.467 --> 00:21:25.031
I think there's a big part of that, which is just a cultural thing of being a man.

00:21:25.893 --> 00:21:28.335
How often people get asked, are you all right?

00:21:28.615 --> 00:21:30.597
And we just respond with, I'm fine.

00:21:31.041 --> 00:21:33.125
And a lot of times we're not fine.

00:21:33.365 --> 00:21:39.955
I think sometimes all it takes is when someone asks how you are and you say I'm fine and they go, yeah, but are you fine?

00:21:40.195 --> 00:21:43.381
And you go, and then you might open up a little bit more, don't you?

00:21:43.481 --> 00:21:43.781
Yeah.

00:21:44.923 --> 00:21:47.227
So what was the gift of desperation then?

00:21:47.268 --> 00:21:50.893
So was there a specific moment where you fought it?

00:21:50.913 --> 00:21:53.617
Because I think what I want to talk about is them rock bottom moments.

00:21:54.753 --> 00:22:01.826
We talk about people having their legs amputated and still continuing to use substances, and that's not their rock bottom moment.

00:22:01.945 --> 00:22:07.977
But then other people, and again, I've shared this one before, forgetting to put your kids up from school and thinking, right, I've got

00:22:07.997 --> 00:22:08.037
to

00:22:08.076 --> 00:22:08.718
sort myself out.

00:22:09.078 --> 00:22:12.702
Was there anything there that you just thought, right, Now's the time to change.

00:22:12.843 --> 00:22:14.345
Yeah, I think there's a combination of things.

00:22:14.384 --> 00:22:16.667
I was living in a shithole for once, if I have a better word.

00:22:16.688 --> 00:22:16.968
Yeah, yeah.

00:22:17.449 --> 00:22:22.094
A flat where I just tidied up a four square metre thing and kicked everything underneath the couch.

00:22:22.173 --> 00:22:23.375
Yeah.

00:22:23.915 --> 00:22:26.398
My relationship to my family had become strained.

00:22:27.420 --> 00:22:29.782
I'd lost a relatively long-term girlfriend.

00:22:29.803 --> 00:22:35.829
I knew if I got caught doing certain things, I'd get a lot of jail.

00:22:36.577 --> 00:22:47.010
just a combination like a perfect storm and I was getting old I was getting old that's the one thing that I think is interesting because for heroin

00:22:47.111 --> 00:22:52.096
users specifically intravenous or not they're

00:22:52.176 --> 00:23:09.458
an ageing population a lot of the people that we get coming through the door you rarely get 20 year olds coming through the door with a heroin addiction it's often people in the late 30s, 40s, 50s sort of thing that we're working with So I do think there must be a time when you get to a point where you're just

00:23:10.538 --> 00:23:16.286
sick of going to the pharmacy every day, sick of using substances every day, sick of chasing the substances every day.

00:23:18.068 --> 00:23:19.770
And all the drama that must come.

00:23:19.931 --> 00:23:21.031
We've been in that circle.

00:23:21.833 --> 00:23:23.035
Yeah, drama.

00:23:23.214 --> 00:23:24.336
Yeah, big drama.

00:23:25.076 --> 00:23:28.541
Well, so tell me about Renew then.

00:23:28.834 --> 00:23:34.519
When you had those moments of change, is that sort of about some of the groups you used to run in with a full trust?

00:23:34.839 --> 00:23:35.400
Yeah.

00:23:35.500 --> 00:23:36.961
Being challenged, what was that like?

00:23:36.981 --> 00:23:45.670
And to renew in general, like credit, the first people to really show faith in me, because I've been to college a couple of times and done counselling, but I was just in the midst of things.

00:23:45.710 --> 00:23:49.432
But the first people to, like Kerry, am I saying names?

00:23:49.532 --> 00:23:50.173
Yeah, of course.

00:23:50.314 --> 00:23:53.576
Like Kerry Shaw, Leon Garzy, Rachel Conqueror.

00:23:53.676 --> 00:23:53.836
Yeah.

00:23:54.417 --> 00:23:56.700
First people to really show faith in me, Lily May.

00:23:56.839 --> 00:23:57.019
Yeah.

00:23:57.961 --> 00:23:58.602
You know, just...

00:23:58.945 --> 00:24:02.991
Let me know that I am worth something.

00:24:03.633 --> 00:24:10.644
And it kind of takes us to the whole point of this podcast and the mantra of us as Change Go Live is believing in people.

00:24:11.104 --> 00:24:12.606
I think that's what we've got to do.

00:24:12.666 --> 00:24:15.991
And I think if you're someone who doesn't believe people can change, you're working in the wrong job.

00:24:17.374 --> 00:24:22.741
Because no matter where people are on this journey to recovery, it could be just taking those first few steps.

00:24:22.781 --> 00:24:24.845
It could be complete ambivalence to ever wanting to change

00:24:24.924 --> 00:24:25.086
now.

00:24:25.602 --> 00:24:25.923
still

00:24:25.962 --> 00:24:27.105
believing at some point

00:24:27.625 --> 00:24:32.714
they will change because we've seen it we've seen the visible recovery someone like yourself who's been using substance for 22 years

00:24:33.175 --> 00:24:59.077
it might have taken 22 years but it still happened yeah you know and i think that that's the big part of it um when did you get introduced to the fellowship then that was through stepping stones upstairs you know for our trust and then they had a meeting on a friday which we're going to be opening again because that's what we call a front line So it was going down on a Friday afternoon with other members of that group, who was part of that meeting, watching the first meeting in the day we have in the kitchen.

00:24:59.097 --> 00:25:05.535
And there's people I've known many years, you know, sat there cleaned, you know, just different people.

00:25:05.615 --> 00:25:09.573
And I was like, But I still thought it was full of shit, but then that was my stuff.

00:25:09.992 --> 00:25:13.376
But then I just, as they say, keep coming back.

00:25:13.436 --> 00:25:14.577
And I just started coming back.

00:25:14.919 --> 00:25:17.141
And then you see they're not full of shit.

00:25:17.721 --> 00:25:21.885
My friend I've known about 40 years, I said to him, when do you all go drinking at weekend?

00:25:21.986 --> 00:25:23.647
And he went, oh, no, I don't drink.

00:25:23.768 --> 00:25:24.848
I thought it was weird.

00:25:25.769 --> 00:25:28.093
But then I just started listening.

00:25:28.133 --> 00:25:28.973
So I was on methadone.

00:25:29.934 --> 00:25:32.917
So I felt a little bit less than at first.

00:25:33.377 --> 00:25:41.891
One of the things that I think is important for a lot of people is having that first mutual aid meeting at Renew because there's this crossover of a comfort blanket.

00:25:41.951 --> 00:25:43.373
It's an environment that you're familiar with.

00:25:44.213 --> 00:25:45.576
And it's happened for a lot of people.

00:25:45.616 --> 00:25:55.211
I think they've gone to the first meeting at Renew, and I'm glad you've said it's going to be coming back as well, like one on the Friday afternoon, because the amount of interest that peaks in other people where they're looking in, like what's going on in there.

00:25:55.872 --> 00:25:59.938
Because the fellowship, the one thing I love about it is that brotherhood.

00:26:00.699 --> 00:26:02.241
And you don't get that with...

00:26:02.945 --> 00:26:04.208
I suppose with anything else, do you?

00:26:04.228 --> 00:26:12.582
Do you know when a bunch of strangers can just come together, have one thing in common, yeah, this brotherhood is created from it, I think is incredible.

00:26:12.821 --> 00:26:14.124
How important was that to you?

00:26:14.223 --> 00:26:15.926
I'm getting shivers.

00:26:16.007 --> 00:26:16.989
Yeah, tell me about it.

00:26:17.028 --> 00:26:20.193
What was it like when you were first welcomed into the fold then?

00:26:20.354 --> 00:26:22.057
Like, tell me about your first meeting then.

00:26:22.096 --> 00:26:24.480
So you said obviously you thought people were full of shit.

00:26:25.201 --> 00:26:26.243
Yeah, well, that was my stuff, yeah.

00:26:26.263 --> 00:26:26.664
Yeah, of course,

00:26:26.684 --> 00:26:27.365
yeah, that's your stuff.

00:26:27.746 --> 00:26:34.796
So it was things like newcomers, people in the first 90 days, if you're on medication, you can't talk till 15 minutes at the end.

00:26:35.897 --> 00:26:40.064
So I was concentrating on the differences and not similarities, as I learned.

00:26:41.065 --> 00:26:46.333
And then my sponsor now, I've known about 35 years, he's nearly 20 years clean.

00:26:47.266 --> 00:26:54.436
Someone, one of my first meetings, he put his arm around me and said, one day you could be like that, you know, and someone walked in.

00:26:54.497 --> 00:26:59.525
I felt really fucking resentful because I thought I am like that because I was in denial.

00:27:01.587 --> 00:27:09.472
And then getting the list of numbers at the end of the meeting and then People are ringing me because they want to ring me to see how I am.

00:27:09.973 --> 00:27:11.217
Not, have you got a tenner?

00:27:11.397 --> 00:27:12.339
Have you got a lay-on?

00:27:12.840 --> 00:27:17.349
People actually caring about you, not just using you.

00:27:17.911 --> 00:27:19.394
That's the beauty of the fellowship.

00:27:20.356 --> 00:27:21.920
For me, that camaraderie.

00:27:22.682 --> 00:27:24.766
Someone got a flat recently with me.

00:27:25.026 --> 00:27:31.711
He came out of rehab from Leeds, and then within five days, we decorated his flat, got him everything in it, and it's beautiful.

00:27:32.051 --> 00:27:34.673
So the 1,500 quid he gets, he can save for his family.

00:27:34.875 --> 00:27:35.535
That's amazing.

00:27:35.894 --> 00:27:38.337
That's what the camaraderie, that's what it brings.

00:27:38.778 --> 00:27:41.220
Forget all the opinions on what you think of addiction.

00:27:41.259 --> 00:27:43.162
I'm not talking about you personally.

00:27:43.182 --> 00:27:43.561
No, no, no.

00:27:43.582 --> 00:27:44.442
I'm talking about anybody.

00:27:44.482 --> 00:27:48.747
I'm glad you went for it, because that is the beauty of narcotics.

00:27:49.646 --> 00:27:50.667
Mutual aid.

00:27:51.608 --> 00:27:52.690
Where does it come from, then?

00:27:53.089 --> 00:27:54.991
Why do you think people are in there?

00:27:54.991 --> 00:28:26.981
there are as supportive as they are because there's a saying tradition eh we keep what we have by giving it away I like that so we give it from because we want to so it's a big part of NA a lot of people might be put off the fellowship and NA and AA because the first step is admitting you are powerless and handing yourself over to a higher power or in some alliterations into God.

00:28:27.702 --> 00:28:28.644
What's your opinion on that?

00:28:29.224 --> 00:28:34.334
Well, God's step two, but step one is, as you can see in my story, I was powerless.

00:28:34.473 --> 00:28:34.753
Yeah, yeah.

00:28:34.954 --> 00:28:38.780
You know, but God got off drugs.

00:28:39.721 --> 00:28:39.803
Yeah.

00:28:39.823 --> 00:28:41.285
You know, a group of druggers.

00:28:42.547 --> 00:28:44.851
But what God is, because I had that on the first one.

00:28:44.871 --> 00:28:45.131
Yeah, yeah.

00:28:45.151 --> 00:28:46.292
I'm really glad you brought that up.

00:28:46.373 --> 00:28:47.734
Are you a religious person, by the way?

00:28:48.296 --> 00:28:48.537
No.

00:28:48.557 --> 00:28:49.117
Okay.

00:28:49.959 --> 00:28:51.622
I follow something called Spinozism.

00:28:52.321 --> 00:28:54.463
what I got off Albert Einstein.

00:28:55.486 --> 00:28:57.488
It's just my personal connection to the universe.

00:28:57.728 --> 00:28:59.309
Tell me about that then while you're on topic.

00:28:59.369 --> 00:29:00.250
What's Spinoza?

00:29:00.652 --> 00:29:04.316
Baroque Spinoza was a Dutch Portuguese.

00:29:04.777 --> 00:29:05.958
He was a leader of the Enlightenment.

00:29:08.240 --> 00:29:12.846
When science broke away from the church in the 17th century, he was a leader of that.

00:29:13.787 --> 00:29:16.349
I've always known about Albert Einstein.

00:29:16.546 --> 00:29:17.646
That's what he followed.

00:29:18.367 --> 00:29:19.569
People don't realise that.

00:29:20.351 --> 00:29:25.116
So I'm still a man of God, but not a God in an omnipresent, supernatural way.

00:29:25.696 --> 00:29:27.900
It's my personal connection to the universe.

00:29:27.940 --> 00:29:30.022
Do you think a lot of people do that with that step then?

00:29:30.242 --> 00:29:34.989
Because I think, especially in this day and age, I think God is such a...

00:29:35.028 --> 00:29:39.914
I mean, there was a time when, obviously, a blind belief of God.

00:29:39.934 --> 00:29:41.896
It was just a blind following of the church.

00:29:43.233 --> 00:29:44.295
We're a different world now.

00:29:45.476 --> 00:29:47.258
How much of a barrier do you think that is for people?

00:29:47.518 --> 00:29:48.519
Yeah, not even the steps.

00:29:48.598 --> 00:29:50.520
It's in all the readings at the start of the meeting.

00:29:50.882 --> 00:29:51.582
God, God, God.

00:29:51.603 --> 00:29:58.009
So when there's a newcomer now, I'll just call it magic like my friend does.

00:29:58.869 --> 00:30:00.270
I'll just say it's magic, this stuff.

00:30:01.913 --> 00:30:03.213
But there is power in that room.

00:30:04.435 --> 00:30:08.599
Whether it's a power of suggestion, positive energy, there's power in there.

00:30:08.940 --> 00:30:10.342
It's not necessarily God for me.

00:30:10.978 --> 00:30:16.547
How would you, if someone said like, I'd really love to get involved in this sort of, I'd love to get involved in the fellowship.

00:30:16.988 --> 00:30:19.311
However, I just don't believe in God.

00:30:19.732 --> 00:30:21.055
How do you get around that?

00:30:21.075 --> 00:30:22.596
You said a little bit about like, it's magic.

00:30:23.378 --> 00:30:26.163
I would say, because I've got sponsors or I take from it now.

00:30:26.723 --> 00:30:31.090
What I would say is I would say, I don't know what God is, but it's not me.

00:30:33.275 --> 00:30:34.616
God's not there, he's in there.

00:30:35.713 --> 00:30:37.156
So it's internal.

00:30:38.461 --> 00:30:40.486
I won't complicate it.

00:30:41.607 --> 00:30:44.515
So, yeah, that's what it means to me.

00:30:45.017 --> 00:30:48.925
I've heard people say that in terms of higher power, higher power doesn't necessarily mean God.

00:30:49.446 --> 00:30:50.368
Higher power could be...

00:30:51.490 --> 00:30:53.711
I suppose your motivation in a way.

00:30:53.731 --> 00:30:54.732
Yeah, yeah, that's what it is.

00:30:55.094 --> 00:30:57.455
Some people have said, like, my kids are my higher power.

00:30:57.737 --> 00:30:58.436
Yeah.

00:30:58.817 --> 00:30:59.337
Would you agree?

00:30:59.618 --> 00:31:00.318
Is that right?

00:31:00.439 --> 00:31:01.279
Is that along the same lines?

00:31:01.299 --> 00:31:04.544
I'd stay responsive away from that.

00:31:04.864 --> 00:31:05.124
Yeah.

00:31:05.785 --> 00:31:08.106
Because what if you fall out of your higher power, your family?

00:31:08.307 --> 00:31:11.151
Okay, yeah, yeah.

00:31:11.171 --> 00:31:13.212
Everything's a suggestion in a 12-step program.

00:31:13.232 --> 00:31:14.213
Of course, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:31:14.773 --> 00:31:17.676
But it's suggested not to have a living thing.

00:31:17.917 --> 00:31:18.238
Yeah.

00:31:18.594 --> 00:31:19.013
Okay.

00:31:19.115 --> 00:31:20.935
So you can get resentment against 11 teams.

00:31:20.996 --> 00:31:21.457
Yeah, yeah.

00:31:21.696 --> 00:31:22.178
I get that then.

00:31:22.518 --> 00:31:24.339
It's just, so I'm not in my will.

00:31:24.619 --> 00:31:28.022
And I empower means that I'm in something else's will and not mine.

00:31:28.384 --> 00:31:28.784
Okay.

00:31:29.183 --> 00:31:30.305
And that I believe in something.

00:31:31.987 --> 00:31:32.067
Yeah.

00:31:32.086 --> 00:31:32.247
Yeah.

00:31:32.366 --> 00:31:32.468
I

00:31:33.067 --> 00:31:33.888
kind of understand that.

00:31:33.909 --> 00:31:34.809
I get where you're going with it.

00:31:35.911 --> 00:31:40.375
So in terms of your own recovery then, Darren, like where were you in this step program then?

00:31:40.655 --> 00:31:42.576
Well, I'll just quickly run for the club sets.

00:31:42.678 --> 00:31:43.218
Yeah, absolutely.

00:31:43.238 --> 00:31:45.660
I think that'd be great for people that don't know what they are.

00:31:45.680 --> 00:31:46.842
Step one, I'm powerless.

00:31:47.458 --> 00:31:51.742
And I'm asking for help.

00:31:52.845 --> 00:32:00.775
Step two is asking for help, humility, being able to ask for help.

00:32:00.795 --> 00:32:09.244
Step three is making a decision to carry on with it by connecting to a higher power.

00:32:10.018 --> 00:32:12.740
Step four is a fearless morning venture of my life.

00:32:12.800 --> 00:32:13.602
That's the big one.

00:32:13.842 --> 00:32:15.443
A lot of people stop there as well.

00:32:15.763 --> 00:32:19.469
I've found that I've known so many people who've started a step program and then dropped out on step four.

00:32:19.769 --> 00:32:25.075
Yes, it takes a lot of courage because that's how I found out about my childhood trauma and what led me to do drugs.

00:32:25.234 --> 00:32:26.056
Yeah, yeah.

00:32:26.175 --> 00:32:28.397
And it's called four or the door.

00:32:28.818 --> 00:32:29.720
Yeah, yeah.

00:32:29.880 --> 00:32:31.501
Yeah, that sounds about right as well.

00:32:31.582 --> 00:32:37.989
People who don't do the four and the five because you read four out into five.

00:32:38.189 --> 00:32:38.750
Yeah, yeah.

00:32:39.266 --> 00:32:43.814
People who don't do that tend to relapse in the fellowship I'm on about.

00:32:43.854 --> 00:32:58.337
Yeah, from my experience as well, I've seen that happen because the amount of resentment I think that's brought up, that self-inventory can be so gruelling that rather than it taking them to a positive place...

00:32:59.041 --> 00:33:00.704
they end up just hating themselves even more.

00:33:00.785 --> 00:33:06.153
And then that's when they start using more substances and it can be complete relapse from step four.

00:33:06.653 --> 00:33:14.987
And someone who's not even in addiction or in a step program, I would find that one probably the most difficult is step four.

00:33:15.047 --> 00:33:16.509
That's where my sponsor comes into it.

00:33:17.530 --> 00:33:18.933
Being in constant contact with him.

00:33:19.493 --> 00:33:21.317
And step five is reading step four out.

00:33:21.890 --> 00:33:30.781
Tell me about sponsors, just to cut you off there, because when I used to hear sponsor, I used to think like financial sponsors, you know, someone who gives me money to live and things like that.

00:33:30.801 --> 00:33:35.449
So for someone who doesn't understand what a sponsor is, what is the role and responsibility of a sponsor?

00:33:36.049 --> 00:33:42.999
It's somebody who's further in their recovery and understands the 12 steps, you know, who's further in.

00:33:43.519 --> 00:33:46.002
Like mine's just over 19 years.

00:33:46.163 --> 00:33:56.865
And the difference between that and someone who is, say, doing a volunteer peer mentor all by themselves is If you agree to be someone's sponsor, you have to agree to pretty much be accessible 24 hours a day.

00:33:57.085 --> 00:33:57.567
Is that right?

00:33:57.626 --> 00:33:57.906
Yeah.

00:33:58.288 --> 00:34:01.615
Although my sponsor is so far in recovery, it will put founders in.

00:34:01.737 --> 00:34:02.238
Yeah, yeah.

00:34:02.529 --> 00:34:33.036
you know yeah so it's like you can't ring me after 12 o'clock at night yeah and if I ring him he'll be honest is that frowned upon or are they allowed to put them because I don't know what is what's the so-called when you're that far in like I'm learning to put boundaries in now like we're saying in all aspects of life what that is just being honest and being yourself you know because then if you're picking up the phone you're just people pleasing yeah you're doing it to please them and I think your ability to help other people shouldn't hinder your own sort of life and responsibility as well I'd agree 100% that them boundaries need to be in place.

00:34:34.217 --> 00:34:36.340
So, sorry, step five again, what was that?

00:34:36.380 --> 00:34:37.621
That's a reading of the step four.

00:34:37.722 --> 00:34:38.123
Okay, yeah.

00:34:38.182 --> 00:34:39.804
So, like you said, they blend together.

00:34:40.246 --> 00:34:41.226
And then step six?

00:34:42.068 --> 00:34:43.829
Step six is defects of character.

00:34:44.291 --> 00:34:44.650
What's that?

00:34:45.853 --> 00:34:47.635
For me, I'll explain what it means for me.

00:34:47.675 --> 00:34:59.710
It would, you know, respond into situations in different ways, you know, and just, I run on them false behaviours I've created because addiction's behavioural.

00:34:59.809 --> 00:35:01.871
you know, for me.

00:35:02.072 --> 00:35:04.775
I brought them behaviours into my recovery.

00:35:05.615 --> 00:35:14.706
So one of my defects was passive aggressive humour, which is what Kerry and Ellie would probably attest to.

00:35:15.226 --> 00:35:21.032
But what that turned out to be was me feeling inadequate, so I would attack you before you attack me with humour.

00:35:21.753 --> 00:35:27.820
So if I think you're going to say you're all right, Darren, I will say somewhat derogatory, but in a jokey way.

00:35:27.920 --> 00:35:29.302
Yeah, yeah, I get that.

00:35:29.481 --> 00:35:31.284
I think it's sort of that deflection as well.

00:35:31.304 --> 00:35:32.304
Yeah, yeah, that's what it is.

00:35:32.346 --> 00:35:33.367
Well, it is deflection, isn't it?

00:35:33.387 --> 00:35:35.208
Yeah, and I'm guilty of that.

00:35:35.688 --> 00:35:37.610
I think I know a lot of people that are guilty of that.

00:35:37.630 --> 00:35:44.518
I think for me, if I think about taking a bit of sort of invention myself, is just general personal responsibility.

00:35:44.858 --> 00:35:49.083
Like if my wife comes at me with something like, oh, you haven't done this, I was like, well, I haven't done that yet, but you haven't done this.

00:35:49.523 --> 00:35:52.947
So there's that instant stop coming at me, stop attacking me sort of thing.

00:35:53.027 --> 00:35:54.670
Like I almost attack back.

00:35:55.170 --> 00:36:00.360
to deflect my own, as opposed to my own personal responsibility in a way of negating that, I guess.

00:36:01.320 --> 00:36:02.063
What about step seven?

00:36:03.045 --> 00:36:08.775
Step seven is where we pray and put the action in to remove our defects.

00:36:08.875 --> 00:36:09.155
Okay.

00:36:09.777 --> 00:36:11.740
You know, pray to an higher power of my understanding.

00:36:12.081 --> 00:36:13.563
Because we can learn about our defects.

00:36:13.583 --> 00:36:14.525
It's higher than 11.

00:36:14.690 --> 00:36:19.407
We can learn about our defects, but if we're not going to put the action in, then what's the point in learning?

00:36:19.869 --> 00:36:22.679
So step seven, it's kind of like what five is to four.

00:36:23.282 --> 00:36:24.306
It's a solution to it.

00:36:25.289 --> 00:36:26.393
So step seven is...

00:36:26.690 --> 00:36:29.034
It falls on quite simultaneously.

00:36:29.054 --> 00:36:30.655
Yeah, and I've always been spiritual, you see.

00:36:30.876 --> 00:36:33.099
I've always known there was something else, you know.

00:36:33.460 --> 00:36:35.003
So Step 7 was quite easy for me.

00:36:35.523 --> 00:36:38.568
Because a lot of people have been Step 6 for two years.

00:36:39.009 --> 00:36:44.617
So you're in all them bad behaviours you're learning about and not in the solution in Step 7, a bit like 4 and 5.

00:36:45.340 --> 00:36:52.090
So basically, I pray to my higher power every morning and night, and I pray for them to be removed, you know.

00:36:52.751 --> 00:36:54.092
But then I put the action in.

00:36:54.849 --> 00:36:56.831
Because I've learned about them to not do them.

00:36:57.512 --> 00:36:58.934
Is your higher power a God then?

00:36:59.193 --> 00:36:59.934
Or in that sense?

00:37:00.155 --> 00:37:02.175
It's a personal connection to the universe.

00:37:02.255 --> 00:37:07.240
But I'm so, this is another thing, I'm so open-minded that it could be.

00:37:08.081 --> 00:37:11.304
I used to be agnostic, but I'm not now.

00:37:11.384 --> 00:37:13.826
I'm just so, that's what the program's done for me.

00:37:13.865 --> 00:37:15.068
I'm so open-minded.

00:37:16.088 --> 00:37:17.989
If you say you're into God, then that works for you.

00:37:18.690 --> 00:37:19.731
But I'm just open-minded.

00:37:19.771 --> 00:37:20.271
Yeah, it could be.

00:37:20.612 --> 00:37:20.932
Absolutely.

00:37:20.952 --> 00:37:22.693
I think that's the best way to be in life.

00:37:22.713 --> 00:37:24.576
I don't understand anything.

00:37:24.655 --> 00:37:58.193
I've got got a friend who's a jehovah's witness or was a jehovah's witness he's kind of fell in at falling out with that and i mean i was always open-minded i went to a couple of his meetings with him but my rule was just don't try and push it on me yeah you know i will i listen to anyone's religion in fact i find it all interesting um you know hearing about everyone's different religious beliefs i do have a very much an open mind to it but as long as as long as you don't push your own belief on me yeah then i'm fine i think that's my approach to it i've got When I, yeah, because just before the pandemic started, I was due to come off methadone.

00:37:58.954 --> 00:37:59.036
Yeah.

00:37:59.056 --> 00:38:00.717
And I just jumped off.

00:38:01.619 --> 00:38:04.382
But I had all these people around me now calling me to know if I'd ring.

00:38:04.623 --> 00:38:04.923
Yeah.

00:38:05.905 --> 00:38:09.489
Because I had to go in every day for clinical supervision, but it was closed.

00:38:09.971 --> 00:38:10.311
Okay.

00:38:11.032 --> 00:38:13.476
But now I see the pandemic as a godsend.

00:38:14.036 --> 00:38:16.880
It was that thing where you had to take action, I suppose.

00:38:16.920 --> 00:38:19.344
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:38:19.545 --> 00:38:20.606
And I had a...

00:38:20.769 --> 00:38:23.394
Some spiritual experiences during that month, right?

00:38:23.474 --> 00:38:26.701
Because I literally, like, people say, oh, no, you can't not go to sleep for a month.

00:38:26.721 --> 00:38:27.161
But I didn't.

00:38:27.682 --> 00:38:28.625
I didn't even go to bed.

00:38:28.664 --> 00:38:30.047
There was no sleep there.

00:38:30.086 --> 00:38:35.356
So I had some really weird spiritual fucking eye-apart moments.

00:38:37.641 --> 00:38:38.943
Do you think that's part of the ADHD?

00:38:38.983 --> 00:38:39.885
Do you think that's why?

00:38:39.925 --> 00:38:41.789
Because people say, no, you can't do all that.

00:38:42.210 --> 00:38:43.492
Do you think that's why you were able to do it?

00:38:43.532 --> 00:38:44.855
Because of your ADHD?

00:38:44.875 --> 00:38:45.255
Just to...

00:38:45.996 --> 00:38:46.577
Say that again.

00:38:46.757 --> 00:38:50.103
So in terms of like, obviously you're saying people say, you've said you didn't sleep for a month.

00:38:50.405 --> 00:38:50.704
Yeah.

00:38:51.927 --> 00:38:52.849
And they say it's not possible.

00:38:53.670 --> 00:38:57.197
Do you think part of your ADHD was to help to make that happen?

00:38:57.657 --> 00:38:58.860
Yeah, I suppose so, yeah.

00:38:58.880 --> 00:39:00.483
And just sounds as rattling.

00:39:00.724 --> 00:39:01.405
Yeah, yeah.

00:39:01.445 --> 00:39:01.985
With drawing.

00:39:02.166 --> 00:39:02.726
Yeah, yeah.

00:39:02.746 --> 00:39:04.190
Off a large amount of effort done.

00:39:04.514 --> 00:39:15.034
Because I imagine, obviously, a rattle's going to be hard enough as it is, but with ADHD, when you're mentally bouncing from one thing to another as well, and then doing that through a rattle, that must have been twice as harder than it.

00:39:15.534 --> 00:39:22.829
No, that's right, because once my body started resting, my hand was turning over, and they'd tag each other like a tag team.

00:39:23.250 --> 00:39:27.338
But the spiritual experiences I had was, I always used to smoke cannabis.

00:39:27.681 --> 00:39:32.728
sit watching the religious channels and take the piss out of it, you know, to cheer myself up.

00:39:33.510 --> 00:39:35.413
But I'm getting shivers down my head.

00:39:35.853 --> 00:39:39.418
I put it on one night and I thought...

00:39:39.798 --> 00:39:42.702
I hadn't slept so things were a little bit bizarre.

00:39:42.722 --> 00:39:55.842
So I thought, I'll tell you what, I'll go in their church and put all of them in my living room so I'm watching them from my telly and they're still happy in my living room and I'm sat in the church alone.

00:39:56.481 --> 00:39:57.842
fucking all upset.

00:39:57.943 --> 00:39:59.344
And this is part of your

00:40:00.326 --> 00:40:01.746
hallucinations, was it?

00:40:01.847 --> 00:40:03.728
Well, yeah, and connection to a higher power.

00:40:04.769 --> 00:40:05.811
But other things happened.

00:40:05.911 --> 00:40:09.393
Like, my sponsor at the time, different guy, he bought me a book.

00:40:09.434 --> 00:40:14.438
He ordered it from America about a Buddhist 12-step.

00:40:14.760 --> 00:40:15.940
And it's 1,100 pages.

00:40:16.521 --> 00:40:21.346
I flicked through it, and it said, Down story, coming off methadone, can't sleep.

00:40:22.286 --> 00:40:25.449
So just serendipity.

00:40:25.826 --> 00:40:26.927
Things

00:40:26.987 --> 00:40:29.570
of a fortuitous nature, or higher powers.

00:40:30.192 --> 00:40:33.556
I believe everything happens for a reason now.

00:40:34.699 --> 00:40:36.521
That's my higher power.

00:40:36.541 --> 00:40:37.762
People don't understand that.

00:40:37.864 --> 00:40:38.925
A lot of people don't understand that.

00:40:39.065 --> 00:40:40.568
Have you ever seen Trainspotting?

00:40:40.887 --> 00:40:41.148
Yeah.

00:40:41.268 --> 00:40:45.974
You know the scene where the baby's crawling on the roof and stuff like that?

00:40:46.777 --> 00:40:47.336
Yeah.

00:40:47.637 --> 00:40:50.422
How accurate is that film for someone who's gone through that?

00:40:50.442 --> 00:40:52.925
When you think about your rattle and your hallucinations...

00:40:53.922 --> 00:40:56.346
Do you think it's a fair representation of what it's actually like?

00:40:56.465 --> 00:40:57.387
Not really.

00:40:58.588 --> 00:40:59.670
I won't say I was a loser in that.

00:40:59.731 --> 00:41:05.179
And that thing I did was a quantum mechanics trick, but it was just being the observer and the observed.

00:41:06.260 --> 00:41:10.847
But, yeah, I would say, yeah, I suppose it can be like that for some people.

00:41:10.867 --> 00:41:17.217
I was more just worried about every little thing I'd done and more in fear of what I'm going to do.

00:41:17.998 --> 00:41:18.077
Yeah.

00:41:18.849 --> 00:41:19.992
So what were the steps then?

00:41:20.034 --> 00:41:21.177
Was it step eight, did

00:41:21.197 --> 00:41:21.317
we say?

00:41:21.338 --> 00:41:24.807
Yeah, step eight is listing people who have armed.

00:41:25.309 --> 00:41:25.630
Okay.

00:41:26.112 --> 00:41:26.452
And

00:41:26.512 --> 00:41:26.572
is

00:41:26.634 --> 00:41:27.155
it making amends?

00:41:27.215 --> 00:41:27.896
Yeah, that's nine.

00:41:28.278 --> 00:41:28.518
Okay.

00:41:28.840 --> 00:41:33.213
So making a list of all the people who have armed.

00:41:33.762 --> 00:41:39.768
And step nine is making amends where possible, whether we're into them or others.

00:41:40.170 --> 00:41:42.833
How long will that take for someone who's been using substances for

00:41:42.913 --> 00:41:43.313
22 years?

00:41:44.153 --> 00:41:45.896
So that's ongoing really, isn't it?

00:41:45.936 --> 00:41:46.938
Shall I share one with you?

00:41:47.699 --> 00:41:55.007
Well, the first one I did was on the garden place because I thought it was like banter at first with Phil.

00:41:56.449 --> 00:41:58.170
But it was bullying as I looked at it.

00:41:58.871 --> 00:42:00.193
I looked at myself.

00:42:01.282 --> 00:42:05.085
And then I sat him down and I said, I need to talk to you.

00:42:05.246 --> 00:42:06.166
I need to make an amend.

00:42:06.407 --> 00:42:08.668
And he said, what for treating me like a country here?

00:42:09.469 --> 00:42:11.552
You know, so I was right.

00:42:12.393 --> 00:42:13.474
So this stuff does work.

00:42:14.474 --> 00:42:15.235
I flagged this up.

00:42:15.496 --> 00:42:17.496
So anyway, I made a beautiful amend because I bullied him.

00:42:18.478 --> 00:42:21.721
Another one was my mum, all the things I did.

00:42:22.722 --> 00:42:23.963
You know, Pacific thing.

00:42:24.684 --> 00:42:26.065
My stepdad died.

00:42:26.085 --> 00:42:27.126
She got left a lot of money.

00:42:27.847 --> 00:42:29.909
She did a big Christmas and...

00:42:31.106 --> 00:42:36.634
When she was at her neighbour's house on Christmas Day, I had the credit card out of her purse and I was scoring.

00:42:38.056 --> 00:42:40.920
I haven't told her that because I think it'll injure her.

00:42:41.862 --> 00:42:49.873
So there's some things that you don't want to speak about because I suppose there's one thing about when you're making amends, there's one thing about making yourself feel better, but...

00:42:50.273 --> 00:42:54.280
Would you do that at the cost if what you're doing is going to make somebody else feel worse?

00:42:54.519 --> 00:42:55.681
Yeah, that's it.

00:42:55.702 --> 00:42:57.364
That's what it says in the step.

00:42:57.704 --> 00:42:58.146
Okay, yeah.

00:42:58.525 --> 00:43:02.612
So the thing is, yeah, with that, but I've told my sponsor and I've told God.

00:43:02.992 --> 00:43:03.914
Yeah, yeah.

00:43:03.934 --> 00:43:06.036
So you've said it out loud, but not to the person.

00:43:06.237 --> 00:43:06.637
Yeah, yeah.

00:43:06.898 --> 00:43:08.199
Only with certain extreme.

00:43:08.621 --> 00:43:09.983
But I'm making a living in men's.

00:43:10.043 --> 00:43:11.125
I'm living with a clean.

00:43:11.364 --> 00:43:12.226
I've just got a job.

00:43:12.507 --> 00:43:13.108
Yeah, yeah.

00:43:13.128 --> 00:43:16.972
And I've had a job since I was in London 30 odd years ago.

00:43:17.454 --> 00:43:17.534
Yeah.

00:43:17.762 --> 00:43:19.264
You know, I'm emptying the dishwasher.

00:43:20.425 --> 00:43:20.505
Yeah.

00:43:20.525 --> 00:43:24.652
You know, just that little things, you know what I mean?

00:43:24.833 --> 00:43:30.702
Because my mom was full of flu, influenza, say, 78, and I'd go, you are it, mom, you've got 20 quid.

00:43:31.342 --> 00:43:31.704
Yeah.

00:43:32.103 --> 00:43:35.108
So I'm making it all about me, but today I'm making it all about her.

00:43:35.268 --> 00:43:35.789
I get that,

00:43:36.590 --> 00:43:36.851
yeah.

00:43:36.871 --> 00:43:37.092
So what's

00:43:37.112 --> 00:43:37.693
the next step then?

00:43:38.434 --> 00:43:41.699
Step 10, I feel this morning, no, that's fucking step four.

00:43:41.838 --> 00:43:43.322
I hope this isn't being filmed, it is.

00:43:44.483 --> 00:43:46.206
Don't watch, sponsor.

00:43:46.465 --> 00:43:49.009
That's where we make a daily inventory of our lives.

00:43:49.789 --> 00:43:51.052
So it's 36 questions.

00:43:51.992 --> 00:43:53.594
Have I armed anybody today?

00:43:53.635 --> 00:43:57.338
Have I done anything unspiritual?

00:43:58.059 --> 00:43:59.181
Just a lot every day then?

00:43:59.702 --> 00:44:05.989
No, the idea is, what my sponsor said, do the 36 questions for a month and then live it.

00:44:06.670 --> 00:44:07.512
And then live it, yeah.

00:44:07.532 --> 00:44:08.913
Yeah, like all the steps, you know.

00:44:09.153 --> 00:44:11.215
If you do it every day, you're probably going to get cancelled.

00:44:11.235 --> 00:44:12.597
I'll give you an instance about that.

00:44:13.239 --> 00:44:41.539
A service user, I'm not going to mention her name, I brought a subject up because we knew each other from the past and then when I realised what I'd done I shut her down and I could see it upset her and then she shared it with another peer mentor but I'd already realised my mistake and I seen her a couple of days later and I just said look can I have a word I'd just like to make an amends because And then she said, oh, no, no, I did this, I did that.

00:44:41.559 --> 00:44:42.740
I said, no, you did nothing.

00:44:43.543 --> 00:44:44.184
It was all me.

00:44:44.344 --> 00:44:45.306
Personal responsibility.

00:44:45.327 --> 00:44:46.409
Yeah, and she didn't do anything.

00:44:47.271 --> 00:44:49.815
I started the conversation and then I shut it down.

00:44:50.717 --> 00:44:53.224
But she'd been in that for a couple of days, so the process does work.

00:44:53.244 --> 00:44:54.465
Yeah, I get that.

00:44:55.467 --> 00:44:55.748
And then...

00:44:56.514 --> 00:44:57.355
Step 11?

00:44:57.876 --> 00:45:04.083
Yeah, that's reaffirming my connection to my power to God through meditation and prayer.

00:45:04.425 --> 00:45:05.005
Yeah.

00:45:05.025 --> 00:45:08.030
And then is the 12th step to share the message?

00:45:08.250 --> 00:45:08.469
Yeah.

00:45:09.010 --> 00:45:10.211
Yeah, that's to spread the message.

00:45:10.293 --> 00:45:11.594
Keep what we have by giving it away.

00:45:11.954 --> 00:45:12.375
Yeah, I like that.

00:45:12.755 --> 00:45:13.998
And have you done the full 12 steps?

00:45:14.137 --> 00:45:17.202
Yeah, I've done the full 12, yeah.

00:45:17.541 --> 00:45:20.126
Someone told me before, once you've done the full 12 steps, you start again.

00:45:20.306 --> 00:45:20.987
Is that a thing?

00:45:21.047 --> 00:45:22.949
No, no, no, no.

00:45:23.110 --> 00:45:25.233
If you want to, I'm starting on the traditions now.

00:45:25.592 --> 00:45:26.173
Okay, yeah.

00:45:26.306 --> 00:45:27.867
Because I never understood it.

00:45:28.047 --> 00:45:30.170
And that's the foundation of what it's built on.

00:45:30.490 --> 00:45:31.110
Yeah.

00:45:31.130 --> 00:45:31.411
Okay.

00:45:31.692 --> 00:45:31.992
I'm sorry.

00:45:32.552 --> 00:45:33.333
But I take over through.

00:45:34.054 --> 00:45:35.695
I take two people for the process now.

00:45:35.876 --> 00:45:35.996
Yeah.

00:45:36.496 --> 00:45:41.543
What I do want to finalise on, Darren, is just a series of 10 random questions.

00:45:42.923 --> 00:45:45.487
They have nothing to do with what we've been talking about just now.

00:45:47.608 --> 00:45:48.971
They're just 10 random questions.

00:45:49.512 --> 00:45:51.273
And just answer them as honestly as you can.

00:45:52.034 --> 00:45:55.177
So the first question, Darren, what is your favourite word?

00:45:55.809 --> 00:45:59.735
My favourite word is something I am sometimes facetious.

00:45:59.936 --> 00:46:01.117
Facetious, I like that.

00:46:01.657 --> 00:46:01.958
Yeah.

00:46:03.840 --> 00:46:04.902
What's your least favourite word?

00:46:06.264 --> 00:46:09.509
My least favourite word is probably America.

00:46:10.530 --> 00:46:11.150
For what reason?

00:46:11.672 --> 00:46:13.014
Everything America stands for?

00:46:13.534 --> 00:46:14.416
What it represents?

00:46:15.016 --> 00:46:15.717
You're just not a fan of

00:46:15.777 --> 00:46:16.378
Americans.

00:46:17.659 --> 00:46:18.780
Tell me something that excites you.

00:46:20.083 --> 00:46:20.304
Love.

00:46:21.005 --> 00:46:23.407
Tell me something that doesn't excite you.

00:46:24.528 --> 00:46:24.769
Love.

00:46:25.186 --> 00:46:27.590
Love doesn't excite you and it doesn't excite you.

00:46:27.670 --> 00:46:28.813
There's a facetious nature.

00:46:28.833 --> 00:46:29.313
There we go.

00:46:29.554 --> 00:46:30.936
Something that doesn't excite me.

00:46:32.338 --> 00:46:32.840
Sadness.

00:46:33.059 --> 00:46:33.501
Sadness.

00:46:33.842 --> 00:46:34.402
That was good to hear.

00:46:34.663 --> 00:46:34.983
I get that.

00:46:35.545 --> 00:46:37.909
I thought he was going to say love and hate.

00:46:39.030 --> 00:46:39.913
Same thing, isn't it?

00:46:39.932 --> 00:46:40.333
Exactly.

00:46:40.514 --> 00:46:42.516
What sound or noise do you love?

00:46:43.259 --> 00:46:44.179
I love the didgeridoo.

00:46:44.681 --> 00:46:45.822
The didgeridoo.

00:46:45.943 --> 00:46:46.244
Oh, yeah.

00:46:46.684 --> 00:46:48.668
I went to Australia in 2007 and...

00:46:49.922 --> 00:46:51.184
Sometimes you just can't get out of bed.

00:46:51.423 --> 00:46:52.644
That's all I can hear.

00:46:52.786 --> 00:46:52.865
Yeah.

00:46:52.905 --> 00:46:53.565
Didgeridoo.

00:46:53.947 --> 00:46:56.150
It does funny things to our brains, doesn't it?

00:46:56.170 --> 00:46:58.152
Yeah, it's like the vibration of it, isn't it?

00:46:58.172 --> 00:47:04.380
The sound, it's not just, obviously all sound is vibration, but there's something about it where you almost feel the vibration with a didgeridoo.

00:47:04.599 --> 00:47:06.282
We all have a resonant frequency.

00:47:06.402 --> 00:47:06.603
Yeah, yeah.

00:47:06.623 --> 00:47:07.804
Well, there we are.

00:47:07.824 --> 00:47:08.804
What sound or noise do you hear?

00:47:10.447 --> 00:47:11.489
Probably take that.

00:47:12.690 --> 00:47:13.150
The band?

00:47:13.451 --> 00:47:13.891
Yeah.

00:47:13.911 --> 00:47:15.052
Well, it's a sound, isn't it?

00:47:15.072 --> 00:47:15.492
It's like a...

00:47:17.536 --> 00:47:19.197
Not a fan of Gary Battle, are you?

00:47:20.769 --> 00:47:22.835
What is your favourite curse word?

00:47:24.119 --> 00:47:24.780
The C word.

00:47:24.800 --> 00:47:28.010
Is there any other profession that you'd like to attempt?

00:47:28.230 --> 00:47:29.815
What is your dream job, essentially?

00:47:29.994 --> 00:47:32.320
If not what you're doing now.

00:47:32.673 --> 00:47:34.637
Well, I'll digress slightly, but quickly.

00:47:34.657 --> 00:47:34.896
Go on.

00:47:35.177 --> 00:47:43.789
When I lived in London, I used to say to this old character next door, Steve, who was about 70, I used to say, I'm qualified, and he used to say, what, qualified wanker?

00:47:44.309 --> 00:47:48.596
You know, so he just nailed me there and then, you know, because I was a wanker most of my life.

00:47:48.755 --> 00:47:48.936
Yeah, nice.

00:47:48.956 --> 00:47:55.724
But, yeah, I'd be a qualified institutionalised prisoner, probably.

00:47:56.907 --> 00:47:57.086
Yeah.

00:47:57.106 --> 00:47:57.807
Explain that to me.

00:47:58.148 --> 00:47:59.210
I'd probably be imprisoned.

00:48:01.092 --> 00:48:02.034
That'd be your profession?

00:48:02.369 --> 00:48:03.972
Well, that's where I was headed.

00:48:03.992 --> 00:48:05.394
Okay, tell you what, not where you're headed.

00:48:05.675 --> 00:48:07.137
What is your dream job?

00:48:07.599 --> 00:48:12.126
I'm talking like astronauts or F1 racer, I don't know, whatever.

00:48:12.146 --> 00:48:15.992
If you could do anything in the world, you didn't need to be qualified for it.

00:48:16.012 --> 00:48:17.333
Well, obviously you need to be qualified for it.

00:48:17.635 --> 00:48:20.239
But right now I can say, right, you're starting your dream job tomorrow.

00:48:20.659 --> 00:48:20.880
Boom.

00:48:21.300 --> 00:48:21.782
What would it be?

00:48:22.302 --> 00:48:26.568
Well, my dream job all the way through my life is I'd like to be something like a particle physicist or...

00:48:27.170 --> 00:48:30.014
Something so mathematics, but I think I'm in my dream job.

00:48:30.173 --> 00:48:30.375
Good.

00:48:30.775 --> 00:48:31.516
That's nice to hear.

00:48:32.338 --> 00:48:32.777
I like to hear that.

00:48:32.797 --> 00:48:33.579
Do you hear that, Diane?

00:48:33.880 --> 00:48:34.039
Yeah.

00:48:34.740 --> 00:48:36.324
What profession would you not like to do?

00:48:39.648 --> 00:48:40.889
Worst job imaginable.

00:48:40.951 --> 00:48:42.293
What would be the worst thing you could do?

00:48:42.632 --> 00:48:45.436
I think a politician.

00:48:45.476 --> 00:48:46.378
Yeah.

00:48:47.099 --> 00:48:47.780
I think you'd be good at it.

00:48:49.483 --> 00:48:51.326
Are you saying I'm disingenuous?

00:48:51.458 --> 00:48:53.661
Quite the opposite after what we've spoken to today.

00:48:54.302 --> 00:48:55.242
And last question.

00:48:55.342 --> 00:48:59.128
If heaven exists, what would you like to hear God say when you arrive at the pearly gates?

00:49:03.672 --> 00:49:03.994
Nothing.

00:49:04.173 --> 00:49:04.835
Just accept.

00:49:05.215 --> 00:49:06.016
Just acceptance.

00:49:06.076 --> 00:49:06.657
Yeah.

00:49:07.277 --> 00:49:08.179
I like that.

00:49:08.699 --> 00:49:11.443
Just the gates open and silence.

00:49:11.784 --> 00:49:12.864
Thank you very much for your time, Darren.

00:49:12.905 --> 00:49:14.106
Much appreciate you coming in today.

00:49:14.387 --> 00:49:16.409
And yeah, it's been wonderful talking to you.

00:49:16.469 --> 00:49:16.750
Thank you.

00:49:17.250 --> 00:49:17.630
Thank you.

00:49:18.891 --> 00:49:19.293
How was that?

00:49:20.418 --> 00:49:20.818
All right.

00:49:21.681 --> 00:49:22.483
Enjoyed it?

00:49:22.503 --> 00:49:22.804
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:49:22.963 --> 00:49:28.878
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