Nov. 24, 2023

John Thurston: Heroin Addiction, Trauma, Stigma, Prison, Withdrawal, Harm Reduction & Injecting Heroin Into His Penis

John Thurston: Heroin Addiction, Trauma, Stigma, Prison, Withdrawal, Harm Reduction & Injecting Heroin Into His Penis
The player is loading ...
John Thurston: Heroin Addiction, Trauma, Stigma, Prison, Withdrawal, Harm Reduction & Injecting Heroin Into His Penis
John Thurston: Heroin Addiction, Trauma, Stigma, Prison, Withdrawal, Harm Reduction & Injecting Heroin Into His Penis
Spotify podcast player badge
Apple Podcasts podcast player badge
Youtube Music podcast player badge
RSS Feed podcast player badge
Spotify podcast player icon Apple Podcasts podcast player icon Youtube Music podcast player icon RSS Feed podcast player icon
Season 1

Matt delves into a heartfelt conversation with John, a resilient Hull native whose journey transcends addiction to embody the essence of resilience. 

Now serving as a Harm Reduction worker, John's decade-long battle with heroin addiction positions him as a beacon of hope for others navigating similar challenges.

As John bravely recounts his path to recovery, he not only shares his personal struggles but also provides a guiding light for those still grappling with addiction. 

His story serves as a powerful testament to the transformative power of determination, support, and the right access to resources.

Click here to text our host, Matt, directly!

🎧 Enjoyed this episode? Please take a moment to leave a review — it helps others find us.

🔗 Then share this episode with someone you know who could benefit from it.

Browse the full archive at 👉 www.believeinpeoplepodcast.com

This is a toolkit for recovery & resilience. Whether you’re in recovery or seeking to understand addiction, there’s something here for everyone.

📩 Contact: robbie@believeinpeoplepodcast.com
🎵 Music: “Jonathan Tortoise” by Christopher Tait (Belle Ghoul / Electric Six)

🔗 Listen & Subscribe
Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/4Cr4wzZ6bxku1cRcoYKbGK
Apple: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/believe-in-people/id1617239923

🎙️ Facilitator: Matthew Butler
🎛️ Producer: Robbie Lawson
🏢 Network: ReNew

WEBVTT

00:00:00.034 --> 00:00:02.016
This is a Renew original recording.

00:00:02.718 --> 00:00:04.862
Hello and welcome to the Believe in People podcast.

00:00:04.902 --> 00:00:08.808
My name is Matthew Butler and I'm your host, or as I like to say, your facilitator.

00:00:09.269 --> 00:00:10.231
Today we speak with John.

00:00:10.913 --> 00:00:16.963
John serves not only as a harm reduction worker, but also as a living testament to the transformative power of overcoming addiction.

00:00:17.725 --> 00:00:24.917
His journey of resilience through a decade-long struggle with heroin addiction positions him as a beacon of hope and inspiration for others facing similar challenges.

00:00:25.282 --> 00:00:27.265
First of all, would you like to introduce yourself?

00:00:27.745 --> 00:00:29.428
Hi everyone, I'm John Pearson.

00:00:29.710 --> 00:00:31.272
I'm an armed reduction worker at Renewal.

00:00:31.792 --> 00:00:32.154
Cheers, John.

00:00:32.194 --> 00:00:34.298
Thank you for giving me time to come on today.

00:00:34.417 --> 00:00:40.469
Obviously, I've said this prior to us coming on here, but just to echo the point, I've wanted to join this podcast since day one.

00:00:41.070 --> 00:00:44.676
And my worry has always been that if we got you on, we'd peak too soon.

00:00:44.735 --> 00:00:47.701
Because obviously, I know elements of your story.

00:00:48.194 --> 00:00:55.085
A lot of people know who you are, especially in Hull, in the substance misuse community and people who use the renew services.

00:00:56.328 --> 00:00:59.012
And I know parts of your story, but I don't know the exact timeline.

00:00:59.033 --> 00:01:04.462
So I guess that's what I'm kind of looking forward to today is piecing what I do know about you together.

00:01:04.602 --> 00:01:07.947
And, you know, I'm sure I'll be hearing some stuff for the first time as well.

00:01:07.968 --> 00:01:10.611
So we'll start at the beginning.

00:01:10.753 --> 00:01:13.918
Like, how old was you when you first started taking drugs?

00:01:14.081 --> 00:01:24.319
I was probably around about 13, 14, like most people would have met around the park, you know, drinking the old bottle of cider here, a bit of Tippec sniffing.

00:01:24.338 --> 00:01:31.451
Not real hardcore, just like recreational jug use as a young man, really.

00:01:31.951 --> 00:01:34.977
Tippec sniffing in like solvents was quite a big thing.

00:01:35.329 --> 00:01:36.653
Well then, though, wasn't it?

00:01:37.075 --> 00:01:37.637
Quite possibly.

00:01:37.677 --> 00:01:41.808
The first thing that I proper got stuck with was something called Brawax.

00:01:42.471 --> 00:01:47.165
And I was working at a furniture company and there was a...

00:01:47.489 --> 00:01:50.472
rejuvenating furniture, and you'd polish it with a wax.

00:01:50.953 --> 00:01:55.897
Well, they sent me into this room on there where the rest of the work, go wax it out for us.

00:01:56.378 --> 00:02:02.743
And I'm in there, and I'm waxing it out, and 15 minutes later, my head's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, and I'm walking out.

00:02:02.844 --> 00:02:04.046
That's mental, that.

00:02:04.525 --> 00:02:12.873
And that, for me, is probably where things started to slip down the road more than what it actually had been.

00:02:13.435 --> 00:02:19.918
I mean, the reason I stopped Brow wax sniffing is because I knew some nickets from work.

00:02:20.019 --> 00:02:20.218
Yeah.

00:02:20.741 --> 00:02:24.050
Take it home and there'd be me and all my mates all brow wax sniffing.

00:02:24.091 --> 00:02:26.418
Well, one of my mates got caught by his man.

00:02:26.689 --> 00:02:28.532
He blew me up.

00:02:28.671 --> 00:02:31.334
Oh, yeah, fucking John Preston nicked it from work, didn't he?

00:02:31.813 --> 00:02:35.176
Anyway, so she rang the police about 20 past 12 one night.

00:02:35.657 --> 00:02:37.158
Bang, bang, bang on the front door.

00:02:37.800 --> 00:02:39.360
Me old man's gone down and answered it.

00:02:39.420 --> 00:02:42.103
And then I heard, John, get your fucking ass down here.

00:02:42.943 --> 00:02:45.045
Went downstairs, there's fucking coppers there, isn't it?

00:02:45.126 --> 00:02:48.528
Anyway, they just started questioning us about this bra wax and whatever.

00:02:48.669 --> 00:02:50.150
Yeah, I did, blah, blah, blah.

00:02:50.591 --> 00:02:52.551
Anyway, gets up next morning, goes to work.

00:02:52.932 --> 00:02:56.455
Soon as me and my mate got to work, we both got sacked for nicking bra wax.

00:02:56.575 --> 00:02:56.656
Yeah.

00:02:56.656 --> 00:02:57.918
Without the door.

00:02:58.479 --> 00:03:03.224
And probably, I mean, I probably did that until I was about 17, 18.

00:03:03.485 --> 00:03:10.014
I can still remember us all going in lasers back in the day with bags of eye wax on us and was meant for going out drinking.

00:03:10.495 --> 00:03:14.621
But we'd be going in the toilet and having a quick last nip as well as drinking as well.

00:03:15.181 --> 00:03:16.383
We did that for quite a while.

00:03:16.403 --> 00:03:23.614
I mean, considering I grew up in the rare bird as well, man, I've never used an ecstasy tablet, which is...

00:03:24.449 --> 00:03:26.092
quite unusual, I would have thought.

00:03:26.171 --> 00:03:28.756
I used acid and stuff like that.

00:03:28.876 --> 00:03:36.145
But probably things started going south for me when my son died, basically.

00:03:37.026 --> 00:03:39.310
So my son was five months old when he died.

00:03:39.330 --> 00:03:41.013
He died of a cock death.

00:03:41.633 --> 00:03:50.266
And after that event, it I'm not going to sit here right and say the reason I ended up where I ended up is because my son died.

00:03:50.306 --> 00:03:53.049
That would be absolutely not the right thing to do.

00:03:53.449 --> 00:03:57.092
I would never desecrate his memory like that because it's not true anyway.

00:03:57.233 --> 00:03:58.935
That's the basic point of the fact.

00:03:59.055 --> 00:03:59.695
It is not true.

00:04:00.135 --> 00:04:03.118
I never ended up in the position I was in because of my son dying.

00:04:03.620 --> 00:04:09.245
Now, I've had professionals say to me that it would have impacted me on some of the choices I made after that.

00:04:09.625 --> 00:04:13.709
I'd probably agree with that because within probably six weeks of him dying, I was in jail.

00:04:14.593 --> 00:04:21.528
it just went mad I took a lot of sort of like responsibility for him dying.

00:04:22.247 --> 00:04:29.173
So the circumstances of him dying was, I was working, we had twins, we had Katie and we had Matthew.

00:04:29.795 --> 00:04:33.158
I'd normally look after Katie and my partner would look after Matthew.

00:04:33.677 --> 00:04:40.684
I'd got up that morning to go to work and Matthew was awake, so I changed him, fed him, put him back in his cot and went to work.

00:04:40.944 --> 00:04:47.709
About two hours later, I was working at Aunty on a boat, we was fixing a sewage pipe there that had been run over.

00:04:48.651 --> 00:04:55.276
Two and a half hours later, I seen my dad come bounding across on this boat with like a face on front of him and I'm thinking, fucking hell, what have I done?

00:04:55.817 --> 00:04:56.497
Am I in trouble?

00:04:56.517 --> 00:04:57.278
Have I done something?

00:04:57.298 --> 00:04:58.480
Someone come on top for me.

00:04:59.120 --> 00:05:02.223
And he went to my son, get yourself Matthew's dad.

00:05:02.723 --> 00:05:06.286
I mean, I don't really remember too much after that.

00:05:06.326 --> 00:05:14.613
I remember getting to the hospital and seeing my mum and my partner and their mum all sort of like huddled in a circle all crying.

00:05:15.574 --> 00:05:24.877
And as soon as, as soon as, I got there, they took me in to see him in the chapel of rest.

00:05:25.576 --> 00:05:33.166
It's the hardest thing I've ever had to deal with in all my life.

00:05:34.228 --> 00:05:43.418
He was in this little white crib and he had all bruises round his mouth and it was just heartbreaking.

00:05:44.279 --> 00:05:45.680
I can't even begin to tell you.

00:05:47.041 --> 00:05:58.473
how heartbreaking it was and then me taking responsibility because then my mind started telling me the last thing my son saw was me turn me back on him and walk out the door and leave him to die.

00:05:59.072 --> 00:06:02.096
Now, I know that in there is not true.

00:06:02.877 --> 00:06:10.103
I'm not a daft lad and I know that's not true but sometimes what you feel in your heart is different to what you think in your mind.

00:06:10.124 --> 00:06:16.449
After that really I just buried it with doing the wrong thing.

00:06:17.314 --> 00:06:23.161
robbing, burgling, fighting, anything really.

00:06:23.341 --> 00:06:27.007
Anything to make me escape the pain that I was suffering from.

00:06:27.026 --> 00:06:31.692
Because back in 1989, I didn't get any counselling or anything like that.

00:06:32.033 --> 00:06:35.218
They gave me 28 to my zip and go sleep off sort of thing.

00:06:36.059 --> 00:06:43.548
So never really ever had any counselling for it until later on in my life.

00:06:43.649 --> 00:07:22.035
But that was definitely a major part of my life and the way I am and where I'm currently at I mean the positive side to it is now I'm in a totally different headspace and you know my son stood behind me patting me on the back going dad keep it up I'm proud of you so when people ask me about why is your recovery so strong how come you're really positive and just the way I am being in recovery and I think it's all from that self empowerment it is seeing things differently it is training your brain I reckon to react in a different way But getting back to it, so 19, Matthew died.

00:07:23.757 --> 00:07:23.978
Can I

00:07:24.238 --> 00:07:27.362
just, obviously, because there's a lot there.

00:07:27.783 --> 00:07:38.199
And, you know, I think when we talk about reasons for substance misuse, you can tell there's two distinct differences there from obviously, you know, smelling, what was it, wax?

00:07:38.560 --> 00:07:39.161
Dry wax.

00:07:39.201 --> 00:07:40.764
Smelling dry wax.

00:07:40.884 --> 00:07:42.026
Dry wax.

00:07:42.065 --> 00:07:42.987
Smelling dry wax.

00:07:43.528 --> 00:07:44.670
And then obviously going to...

00:07:45.314 --> 00:07:48.877
using substances that you went on to use after the death of your son.

00:07:49.459 --> 00:07:51.360
Two completely different reasons there, wasn't they?

00:07:51.420 --> 00:07:55.485
So when he was young, was it just that young experimentation?

00:07:55.725 --> 00:07:58.108
Or was the reasons for escapism even when he was young?

00:07:59.310 --> 00:08:03.673
I had two older brothers, and our Dean is the one in the middle.

00:08:04.254 --> 00:08:07.197
And for some reason, I always looked up to him.

00:08:08.199 --> 00:08:11.362
He was a role model, even though he wasn't living the best life.

00:08:11.382 --> 00:08:12.283
He was in jail.

00:08:12.343 --> 00:08:13.345
I mean, he spent probably...

00:08:14.370 --> 00:08:18.654
The first 10 years of his life, from 16 to 26, probably did seven of them in jail.

00:08:19.274 --> 00:08:20.716
And I used to think that was pretty cool.

00:08:20.776 --> 00:08:23.279
And look how Dean, you know, I'd always be talking about him.

00:08:23.821 --> 00:08:28.286
And the mad thing is every time he went to jail, our Dean was what was called the townie back in the day.

00:08:28.706 --> 00:08:32.450
So he'd have Sam Murray, he'd have Lois Court, he'd have all these really nice clothes.

00:08:32.490 --> 00:08:34.932
Well, as long as he went to jail, I had his fucking clothes on, didn't I?

00:08:35.374 --> 00:08:37.755
And I wanted to be him and be like him.

00:08:38.297 --> 00:08:39.177
And yeah, maybe...

00:08:39.970 --> 00:09:11.797
looking back probably want the right thing to look but i don't know i i think i wanted to project this person that i want because probably deep inside i was quite scared and you know like probably any young adult growing up i want 100 confident person uh So looking up to Aldean and seeing him getting into trouble, again, I'm not blaming anybody for the choices that I made.

00:09:12.238 --> 00:09:19.957
I made my choices on my own free will, but probably I was influenced by role models that really want role models.

00:09:20.322 --> 00:10:20.745
but i think that a lot of people will be able to relate to that anyway i mean we had uh andy on the podcast he was on the festivals we did and we talked about role models in in pop culture and you know when when your role models are do you know rock and roll stars that are doing drugs all the time that's just the word and then we had peter on the podcast and peter spoke about heroin chic and how it was sort of like that look was quite almost desirable people wanted to be something like that and now obviously in you know 2023 would never glamorize that or as role models as such and if it was it'd be quite you know low-key really whereas back in the you know 70s 80s and even 90s really using drugs and using substances and and the rock and roll stars and people that did that it was seen as as cool and i think going back to you know talking about your brother everyone always like idolizes their older siblings don't they because they're doing the things that you're not doing which Obviously, again, in hindsight, you look back and you go, actually, it wasn't the thing to do, but at the time it seemed cool anyway.

00:10:21.126 --> 00:10:22.006
I think that's completely

00:10:22.086 --> 00:10:22.307
normal.

00:10:22.368 --> 00:10:23.889
I think we all grow up, don't we?

00:10:24.288 --> 00:10:25.951
We all have different experiences.

00:10:26.671 --> 00:10:28.293
Probably the best role model was my dad.

00:10:28.312 --> 00:10:39.162
I thought I lived the life my dad wanted me to live in the first place because I was all set for going in the army and he had this planned out future because he was from the background of the army.

00:10:39.461 --> 00:10:41.144
My dad was an hard worker.

00:10:41.163 --> 00:10:45.327
He was an hard man and he was a disciplinarian and sometimes probably...

00:10:45.807 --> 00:10:47.169
more than it should have been.

00:10:47.230 --> 00:10:53.538
But, you know, you grew up back in the 70s and 80s when, if you was not, you got a clip, you got into trouble.

00:10:54.019 --> 00:11:01.067
But then, to be fair, I was 10 years old and I had the elbow knocking at my door and my first criminal conviction is for shoplifting at 10 years old.

00:11:01.388 --> 00:11:05.153
It probably says where my life was ending at that point at 10 years old.

00:11:06.715 --> 00:11:12.783
Yeah, so if I'd have listened to my dad in the first place, quite possibly my life experiences would have been a lot different.

00:11:13.082 --> 00:11:13.904
But we never, going back to

00:11:13.924 --> 00:11:15.005
that, we never look at our...

00:11:15.394 --> 00:11:17.296
Obviously, I've got all the respect in the world for my dad.

00:11:17.316 --> 00:11:18.298
I absolutely love my dad now.

00:11:18.337 --> 00:11:21.341
But as a kid, my dad was never cool.

00:11:21.782 --> 00:11:27.208
You never looked up to your dad and idolized him for those reasons because your dad's your dad.

00:11:27.249 --> 00:11:29.851
But obviously, older siblings are often cool.

00:11:29.892 --> 00:11:37.101
But then you get to an age where you look at it and you go, hang on, my dad was probably the role model that I needed and the role model that I had.

00:11:37.697 --> 00:12:12.299
but also the role model that i chose to not take any notice of really and i think that's just that's just growing up isn't it you look at them and you can i think sometimes it's once you once you have children yourself you start to look at the things your parents did and go hang on this makes more sense now i can relate to why he was the way he was and it wasn't sort of punishing me because i'd done something wrong it was because maybe the don't want you to go down that path and when you become a parent yourself you kind of look at having children you think actually I wouldn't want that for them and you relate to your parents more once you become a dad yourself

00:12:12.519 --> 00:12:26.322
I think the mad thing for me Matt is I was brought up in a family with no drug alcohol problems in it my mum and dad never had drug alcohol issues my children have grown up around me I've been jugging all college shows.

00:12:26.761 --> 00:12:33.515
And all four of them have turned into the most amazing adults any father could possibly want.

00:12:34.138 --> 00:12:39.629
And I look sometimes and I think, look at you, for you was brought up around what I was doing.

00:12:39.649 --> 00:12:46.076
But I was brought up in a totally different environment where you would have thought I'd end up being all right.

00:12:46.317 --> 00:12:50.469
And you would have thought maybe my children would at least follow me into the game that I was playing.

00:12:50.489 --> 00:12:54.320
But I'm so fortunate that none of them have ever gone down there.

00:12:54.340 --> 00:13:00.535
And obviously, you see, unfortunately, children follow parents into addiction.

00:13:01.346 --> 00:13:04.409
I'm just really lucky that my kids saw the damage it did.

00:13:04.951 --> 00:13:06.673
My kids have always been there for me.

00:13:06.933 --> 00:13:09.317
They'll never let anybody say anything bad about me.

00:13:09.697 --> 00:13:21.075
So that tells me I did something right, I hope, because I did bring three of my children up as a single parent throughout my addiction as well, you know, with no social services involvement, you know.

00:13:22.596 --> 00:13:22.836
I mean...

00:13:24.769 --> 00:13:27.980
For me, my kids are the most important thing now, and the grandkids.

00:13:28.039 --> 00:13:33.255
And the thing that I'm the proudest of is my grandkids are never going to suffer the pain my kids suffered.

00:13:33.957 --> 00:13:34.921
That makes me feel...

00:13:36.162 --> 00:13:38.284
I'm so proud about where I am, what I've done.

00:13:38.846 --> 00:13:40.027
I would never lie to them.

00:13:40.086 --> 00:13:46.817
If they ever ask me why I do the job that I do or anything like that, I will always be upfront and honest with them.

00:13:47.378 --> 00:13:49.801
But to be fair, I'm upfront and honest with most people.

00:13:50.162 --> 00:13:52.965
I don't hide behind a veil of shame.

00:13:53.326 --> 00:13:54.788
That's not saying I don't feel shame.

00:13:54.947 --> 00:13:56.190
Yeah, yeah, but you don't hide

00:13:56.210 --> 00:13:56.450
behind it.

00:13:56.470 --> 00:13:58.212
You know, but I don't hide behind it.

00:13:59.254 --> 00:14:04.662
Probably the hardest thing of living in recovery is being able to forgive yourself.

00:14:05.121 --> 00:14:08.126
I found that difficult at times.

00:14:08.888 --> 00:14:15.918
Even being in recovery 15 years, sometimes I still find them emotions difficult to manage.

00:14:16.659 --> 00:14:20.144
Most people probably think, oh, your life's great, you just go to bed in your sleep.

00:14:20.745 --> 00:14:25.033
Now there's nights I go to bed and I'm laid there for three hours without no good sticking me.

00:14:25.092 --> 00:14:27.817
I'm reinforcing how much shit I was back in the day.

00:14:28.961 --> 00:14:30.023
But you know what?

00:14:30.062 --> 00:14:32.546
That's part and parcel of recovery, unfortunately.

00:14:32.666 --> 00:14:33.687
You have to live with stuff.

00:14:33.888 --> 00:14:36.591
You have to live with choices that you've made in the past.

00:14:37.292 --> 00:14:40.755
And it's part of the thing that keeps me moving forward.

00:14:40.796 --> 00:14:46.842
The shame that I feel for what I was doing is the thing that stops me going, ah, do you know what?

00:14:46.942 --> 00:14:48.443
I'm going to go back to where I

00:14:48.464 --> 00:14:48.865
came from.

00:14:49.264 --> 00:14:56.734
So in terms of addiction, do you know, people say there's the argument that you can almost...

00:14:57.186 --> 00:15:00.169
inherit the disease from your parents.

00:15:00.730 --> 00:15:06.799
Now, obviously, your parents didn't have any substance misuse problems, but I understand your brother had substance misuse problems.

00:15:06.879 --> 00:15:07.941
All three of us did.

00:15:08.081 --> 00:15:08.562
All three of you?

00:15:08.601 --> 00:15:08.782
Yeah.

00:15:09.202 --> 00:15:12.006
And then none of your children have had it either as well?

00:15:12.508 --> 00:15:14.090
My children, and I'm not going

00:15:14.711 --> 00:15:22.081
to say they used weed, but never crack, everywhere, anything in that sense.

00:15:22.621 --> 00:15:23.663
But yeah, for us, we would...

00:15:23.683 --> 00:15:25.265
They've never used dependently, but...

00:15:25.601 --> 00:15:25.923
Yeah.

00:15:26.043 --> 00:15:27.707
Recreational.

00:15:27.727 --> 00:15:28.328
Well, do you know what?

00:15:28.370 --> 00:15:29.432
That was my downfall, wasn't it?

00:15:29.452 --> 00:15:29.633
Yeah, yeah.

00:15:29.894 --> 00:15:31.236
Recreational drug deals.

00:15:31.577 --> 00:15:34.787
Because I thought the next drug that I'll pick up, I'll just put down like the last one.

00:15:35.730 --> 00:15:37.313
Like that, yeah.

00:15:37.333 --> 00:15:37.514
You know?

00:15:37.674 --> 00:15:38.717
So at 22...

00:15:39.457 --> 00:15:41.559
Me and my partner had just finished, actually.

00:15:42.561 --> 00:15:44.524
I didn't want my children as a single dad.

00:15:44.563 --> 00:15:52.533
I'm not saying that I don't love them and whatever, but when we finished, I asked her, can I have Katie for, you know, because I'm back at my mum's, I want my own place.

00:15:52.552 --> 00:15:55.275
And back in the day, in the early 90s, if you had a kid, you got an house.

00:15:55.956 --> 00:15:56.977
It was as simple as that.

00:15:57.337 --> 00:16:01.783
So Katie came to live with me when I was about 22, 23.

00:16:03.345 --> 00:16:05.466
Stayed at my mum's and dad's for about six months.

00:16:05.927 --> 00:16:12.456
But the mad thing there is that Luckily, because I was living at my mum's and dad's, I looked after her because she was still a baby.

00:16:12.556 --> 00:16:16.240
And I was going out to one of my next house and taking Tamazipan every night.

00:16:16.961 --> 00:16:20.326
And that was probably when I was about 22, 23.

00:16:20.466 --> 00:16:25.572
And that went on for about, I don't know, I think it was about eight months before I got my first poppy.

00:16:25.592 --> 00:16:32.062
So for about eight months, I was going to my next house and was using Tamazipan.

00:16:32.673 --> 00:16:35.716
First thing that I ever injected actually was with that lad.

00:16:36.236 --> 00:16:37.158
It was a wobbly egg.

00:16:37.177 --> 00:16:40.039
So back in the day, your Tamazepam was called Gel Fix.

00:16:40.921 --> 00:16:41.841
And you could inject them.

00:16:41.881 --> 00:16:44.744
And it was the first thing that I ever did where I injected it in my ankle.

00:16:45.004 --> 00:16:45.625
And it was shit.

00:16:45.664 --> 00:16:48.508
And I just thought, that was scary.

00:16:48.548 --> 00:16:49.428
And it was shit.

00:16:49.469 --> 00:16:50.349
I'm not doing that again.

00:16:51.750 --> 00:16:53.011
Anyway, I got my first house.

00:16:53.812 --> 00:16:56.274
I played rugby for my local pub teams.

00:16:56.293 --> 00:16:57.434
I had a really good life.

00:16:57.535 --> 00:16:58.616
I had good friends.

00:16:59.236 --> 00:17:00.038
Things were good.

00:17:00.518 --> 00:17:09.692
I'm not saying things were good after my son died, but Probably around about 23, 24 is when my son Adam came to stay with me.

00:17:09.711 --> 00:17:12.917
He was about 18 months old when he first came.

00:17:14.119 --> 00:17:17.204
And I was a really good single parent, I think.

00:17:17.244 --> 00:17:18.366
I was a really good dad.

00:17:18.406 --> 00:17:20.471
My kids have always been well looked after.

00:17:20.510 --> 00:17:26.942
I think even though I was hardcore in addiction, I was a really good functioning addict as well.

00:17:27.233 --> 00:17:35.587
And I was really good at manipulating people and pulling the wool over their eyes and getting them to see something that probably really they didn't see.

00:17:35.667 --> 00:17:38.251
So I learned to hide stuff pretty early.

00:17:38.792 --> 00:17:42.419
So anyway, about 23, our Adam had come to live with me.

00:17:42.439 --> 00:17:48.127
Our Dean had just got into a new relationship with somebody we've had.

00:17:48.147 --> 00:17:51.733
I started snorting records.

00:17:52.130 --> 00:17:55.759
So if you don't know what a record is, back in the day, it was called 10 Gs.

00:17:55.818 --> 00:18:01.653
So a little bit like deep enough, put them on detone, let them dissolve, that's the right way to check them.

00:18:01.953 --> 00:18:36.271
Well, if you bang them in a needle, 50 ml of hot water and give them a shake it'd break them down well that was probably the second thing that i injected but i didn't inject at that point my hands was just massive with burns like tree trunks it was go on then and it was somebody else who gave me my first hit and wow i can't even tell you what that was like it was it it just blow my mind it was the best feeling And even still, after going on and using probably more hardcore drugs, it was the best feeling that I've ever had from a drug.

00:18:36.813 --> 00:18:40.880
You hear people who say, you know, I felt that rush from my feet to my head.

00:18:41.721 --> 00:18:42.682
With a record, you did.

00:18:42.762 --> 00:18:45.667
You actually felt it come up through you and into your stomach.

00:18:45.688 --> 00:18:49.253
It would make you gag a bit.

00:18:49.294 --> 00:18:53.602
But the mad thing about records was they made you be sick quite a lot.

00:18:54.145 --> 00:18:57.251
But the more you were sick, the more intoxicated you became.

00:18:57.632 --> 00:19:00.217
So every time you were sick, you were a little bit more intoxicated.

00:19:00.798 --> 00:19:03.742
So that became a bit of a thing as well, really.

00:19:03.782 --> 00:19:04.523
You know, like being

00:19:04.565 --> 00:19:04.924
sick.

00:19:05.926 --> 00:19:07.529
It improved the high sort of thing.

00:19:07.569 --> 00:19:08.932
Yeah, improving the high.

00:19:09.874 --> 00:19:12.178
So I did Wreck It, I don't know, for about two years.

00:19:12.238 --> 00:19:13.339
But at this point, I was still...

00:19:13.380 --> 00:19:14.422
Are Wreck It still about?

00:19:14.803 --> 00:19:16.085
I'd never heard of them.

00:19:16.184 --> 00:19:17.688
I'm not sure, if I'm honest.

00:19:19.105 --> 00:19:21.529
What they say is they'd be up and hopping today.

00:19:21.651 --> 00:19:24.095
But they'd be up and hopping today and now there's a blocker in it.

00:19:24.336 --> 00:19:25.637
Back

00:19:25.657 --> 00:19:29.104
in the day, I don't think there was a blocker in them back in the day.

00:19:29.124 --> 00:19:30.366
It was people with back issues.

00:19:32.130 --> 00:19:34.012
So yeah, anyway, I started checking records.

00:19:34.273 --> 00:19:43.049
And at this point, this is, I mean, going back to obviously using the Brywax for Escapism, you'd lost your son.

00:19:44.097 --> 00:19:46.821
This is for escapism now, isn't it?

00:19:46.882 --> 00:19:49.125
It's not recreational and it's not just...

00:19:50.267 --> 00:19:52.849
Is this dependency at this point?

00:19:53.371 --> 00:19:54.833
For the record, it's million percent.

00:19:54.893 --> 00:19:57.737
That was definitely the first thing that I became dependent on.

00:19:58.897 --> 00:20:01.422
And how I knew I was dependent on them actually was...

00:20:03.865 --> 00:20:08.531
So back in the day, you could do fans in jail and have them squashed.

00:20:09.413 --> 00:20:09.553
And...

00:20:10.402 --> 00:20:14.430
Warrant Man came and grabbed me at my house when I was living in my first house.

00:20:15.833 --> 00:20:17.055
But it was really good, actually.

00:20:17.635 --> 00:20:21.604
And he let me go to my brother's and let my brother and his partner out of the time.

00:20:21.624 --> 00:20:23.468
Look, they're taking me back in jail.

00:20:23.488 --> 00:20:25.652
Can you pick the kids up from school and have them for them?

00:20:26.354 --> 00:20:30.181
And my mum ended up having them in the end anyway, the kids.

00:20:30.883 --> 00:20:32.605
And that's where I did my first rattle.

00:20:32.705 --> 00:20:33.326
in old jail.

00:20:33.907 --> 00:20:33.928
I

00:20:34.288 --> 00:20:36.990
fucking laid on my bed and I'm thinking, well, I feel shit, mate.

00:20:37.551 --> 00:20:38.693
I feel really shit.

00:20:39.575 --> 00:20:41.057
So you didn't even know you were

00:20:41.076 --> 00:20:41.717
dependent on them

00:20:41.777 --> 00:20:42.818
until you was in jail?

00:20:43.199 --> 00:20:44.601
No, definitely not.

00:20:45.221 --> 00:20:48.065
I mean, because all the drugs I've used before, I've never been dependent to use.

00:20:48.085 --> 00:20:48.566
And like you said,

00:20:48.625 --> 00:20:49.267
recreational.

00:20:49.366 --> 00:20:50.788
It was recreational.

00:20:50.808 --> 00:20:51.890
You could always put them down.

00:20:52.852 --> 00:20:54.313
And I think probably...

00:20:54.978 --> 00:20:57.201
I didn't learn enough from that experience.

00:20:57.782 --> 00:20:59.766
So I probably did records for about two years.

00:20:59.826 --> 00:21:01.409
But like I said, I was still playing rugby.

00:21:01.469 --> 00:21:02.070
I was fit as...

00:21:02.250 --> 00:21:02.451
Because

00:21:02.510 --> 00:21:03.272
you was functioning.

00:21:03.313 --> 00:21:04.775
It didn't seem like dependency.

00:21:04.976 --> 00:21:05.135
Yeah.

00:21:05.175 --> 00:21:06.518
You're doing all the...

00:21:06.577 --> 00:21:07.780
Doing all the normal things.

00:21:07.820 --> 00:21:09.523
You're still going out on the weekend.

00:21:10.945 --> 00:21:16.212
Yeah, my life, like, it didn't have that major impact because the wreck, it cost me a pound a day.

00:21:17.095 --> 00:21:17.654
Is that it?

00:21:17.836 --> 00:21:23.604
It wasn't like what people now spend on airing and crack where they're spending hundreds and thousands of pounds a day sometimes on it.

00:21:23.624 --> 00:21:24.365
It was a quid a day.

00:21:24.904 --> 00:21:31.134
And if I had to throw a bit of resin on at night time, you know, to go over it, some of my habit would probably have costed me.

00:21:32.034 --> 00:21:32.974
14 quid a week.

00:21:34.016 --> 00:21:37.921
It's nothing in the context of what I was getting because I was a single dad.

00:21:38.642 --> 00:21:43.928
So in that sense, it was definitely records that showed me

00:21:44.448 --> 00:21:46.269
about dependency.

00:21:46.549 --> 00:21:53.858
So when you was in prison and you're doing this rattle, had you made the link at that time that you're feeling this way because you're not taking the records?

00:21:54.298 --> 00:21:55.740
How did you come up with that conclusion?

00:21:57.057 --> 00:21:59.560
I think I owe it to you, to be fair.

00:22:00.402 --> 00:22:02.726
Because of the circle that you go in, people do it.

00:22:02.786 --> 00:22:07.471
But until it happens to you, I was like, I'll put it down when I'm ready.

00:22:07.511 --> 00:22:09.173
I don't know what you're all worried about.

00:22:09.314 --> 00:22:10.855
It's not a problem.

00:22:10.915 --> 00:22:11.636
It's not a thing.

00:22:12.097 --> 00:22:12.838
Minimize on it.

00:22:13.339 --> 00:22:14.480
I was an extreme person.

00:22:14.560 --> 00:22:16.223
I loved doing extreme things.

00:22:16.503 --> 00:22:18.066
I was always a risk taker.

00:22:18.205 --> 00:22:19.347
I think that was part of my problem.

00:22:19.528 --> 00:22:21.289
I loved to take risks.

00:22:21.590 --> 00:22:23.913
I loved living on the edge.

00:22:24.755 --> 00:22:25.615
It gave me something.

00:22:25.635 --> 00:22:26.837
I don't know what, but it just...

00:22:27.201 --> 00:22:28.022
Gave me something.

00:22:28.663 --> 00:22:30.266
It made me feel, I don't know, empowered.

00:22:30.385 --> 00:22:31.146
Maybe, do you know what?

00:22:31.186 --> 00:22:36.834
Maybe I was too cocky, too confident, too arrogant.

00:22:37.535 --> 00:22:39.537
I'm different from everybody else, aren't I?

00:22:39.557 --> 00:22:40.458
It's not going to get me.

00:22:41.199 --> 00:22:45.664
And I think my arrogance and my cockiness, well, you can't fucking tell me.

00:22:45.684 --> 00:22:48.028
I know everything, don't I?

00:22:48.107 --> 00:22:49.088
I'm a man of the world.

00:22:49.829 --> 00:23:03.036
But in reality, I didn't know too much and I didn't really understand considering really at 23 you probably think you should know a little bit more how old was you when Matthew

00:23:03.236 --> 00:23:45.570
passed away 19 I was obviously it's like one of these things it's such a such a young I think at that age you're a kid yourself aren't you yeah I mean I only I became a dad last year and even then at 30 I was like this is a lot of responsibility to have so to kind of have that I can't imagine having it at 19 I can't imagine that level of responsibility at that age so To have had that responsibility, to have gone through that grief and that trauma of what you'd gone through, I think it's only natural that you used substances for escapism in the way that you did, really, to summarise up to that point and to go into it.

00:23:47.134 --> 00:23:51.730
You're a young lad still, and because of that, I mean, your parents will worry about you forever.

00:23:52.010 --> 00:23:56.382
You're always going to be your parents' baby, no matter how old you get.

00:23:57.064 --> 00:24:02.557
What was it like for them seeing you go from the death of Matthew to...

00:24:02.849 --> 00:24:03.871
dependency of drugs.

00:24:03.911 --> 00:24:04.411
What was it like for them?

00:24:04.431 --> 00:24:06.113
Well, my mum and dad have lost a child as well.

00:24:06.292 --> 00:24:12.979
So I had a younger brother called Stephen and he died from having an hole in his heart when he was a baby baby, about six weeks old, I think it was.

00:24:13.038 --> 00:24:15.701
So, you know, Matthew wasn't much older.

00:24:15.800 --> 00:24:16.682
How old was Matthew?

00:24:16.821 --> 00:24:18.523
Matthew was five months older when he died.

00:24:18.824 --> 00:24:27.391
I think the hardest part of that event was when Matthew and Katie was born, they was born like six weeks premature and they only weighed 3.30 pounds.

00:24:27.411 --> 00:24:29.873
It's a pair of them, they weighed exactly the same weight.

00:24:30.354 --> 00:24:33.396
Katie was born first, absolutely no problem him out for him.

00:24:33.416 --> 00:25:04.532
Matthew came out, he was already blown cord round his neck straight to a special baby car unit and it was touch and go then whether he lived or he died but one of the hardest things is he came through that, he made a miraculous recovery and turn around and then getting him home after I think it was about three and a half months before they came home and then getting him home and him coming through that and They seemed to die for no reason because they couldn't give me a reason of why he died.

00:25:05.434 --> 00:25:11.971
They basically told me what they felt is maybe his brain had sent a shock to his heart and his heart just never restarted again.

00:25:12.392 --> 00:25:15.759
So we've never, and I think that's the same for everybody who suffers caught dead.

00:25:16.402 --> 00:25:18.066
There is no real answer for you.

00:25:18.337 --> 00:25:19.759
of why this event happened.

00:25:19.840 --> 00:25:20.000
That's

00:25:20.161 --> 00:25:28.655
the thing with, I mean, obviously my daughter's just turned 19 months now, but sudden infant death syndrome, or SIDS as they call it, terrified me.

00:25:28.836 --> 00:25:38.673
And when you told me about Matthew, I knew we'd spoken about it, you know, obviously I've known you years now, you'd spoken about Matthew to me before, but when you told me about Matthew passing away at five months...

00:25:39.425 --> 00:25:41.067
My daughter had just turned five months.

00:25:41.107 --> 00:25:46.093
And I thought I was out of the sudden infant death syndrome, cot death stage then.

00:25:46.693 --> 00:25:48.256
I remember the fear that I had.

00:25:48.556 --> 00:25:52.800
Obviously, I'd be putting her to bed and it'd be check, check, check, check.

00:25:52.861 --> 00:25:55.083
Again, I know there was nothing that happened.

00:25:55.103 --> 00:26:02.250
But I think the scary thing is, as a parent of a newborn, is knowing something like that can happen.

00:26:02.290 --> 00:26:04.353
And that sometimes these things can't be...

00:26:04.773 --> 00:26:07.036
And you're already anxious as a new parent, aren't you?

00:26:07.916 --> 00:26:08.278
And I think...

00:26:08.705 --> 00:26:09.988
Obviously, I did it at 30.

00:26:10.269 --> 00:26:14.055
I've got a little bit more knowledge, wisdom.

00:26:14.215 --> 00:26:15.857
I'm a little bit more grown up.

00:26:16.038 --> 00:26:19.505
But to have that at 19, I just think that's an incredible amount of pressure.

00:26:19.525 --> 00:26:21.488
And then to lose a

00:26:21.607 --> 00:26:22.470
few at that age.

00:26:22.589 --> 00:26:23.672
I've got grandkids now.

00:26:24.333 --> 00:26:28.059
And my biggest fear is that it happens to one of my kids.

00:26:28.579 --> 00:26:29.501
Yeah.

00:26:29.922 --> 00:26:32.568
I'm so happy when they get past the five-month stage.

00:26:33.111 --> 00:26:37.541
We've got a little girl currently, and she's not far from the five-month stage.

00:26:38.243 --> 00:26:40.369
I could never imagine that happening to any of my kids.

00:26:40.470 --> 00:26:42.896
It is the most darkest part of my life.

00:26:43.156 --> 00:26:44.240
It's heartbreaking to

00:26:44.259 --> 00:26:46.185
go through it as a parent, but as a...

00:26:46.625 --> 00:26:51.311
parent of the parents and going back to your parents and how they felt

00:26:51.352 --> 00:27:17.605
that was a really good thing about it though we've got a shared experience so in reality I could actually sit and listen to my dad when it came to that shared experience especially my mum because my mum's my rock my dad at times has kept us at arm lengths for obvious reasons my mum is the one who always put her arm around me and told me it was going to be alright you'll get through this it'll be alright and without that I don't think I would be here today.

00:27:18.166 --> 00:27:21.113
She never criticised me for any of the choices that I was making.

00:27:21.373 --> 00:27:25.982
She never looked down at the people I was hanging around with, like smack heads, scumbags, dirt.

00:27:26.864 --> 00:27:28.667
It was not like that at all.

00:27:28.728 --> 00:27:33.597
My mam, yeah, we all say this about our mums, don't we?

00:27:33.794 --> 00:27:34.734
Best mum in the world.

00:27:34.755 --> 00:27:41.020
Mum, if you're watching this, you're the best person, the most kind-hearted woman I know, and I love you to bits.

00:27:41.682 --> 00:27:41.862
Of course.

00:27:41.882 --> 00:27:42.142
All right.

00:27:43.403 --> 00:27:48.067
Yeah, so, like I said, you know, my mum and dad have that shared experience of losing a child.

00:27:49.009 --> 00:28:07.449
I mean, in reality, my son dying, it didn't really hit me until the day of his funeral, and I remember being stood on the doorstep, and I looked up straight, and I saw the cars coming down and I went upstairs into the bedroom and I was just absolutely in bits.

00:28:08.009 --> 00:28:13.155
So I don't remember the journey to the crematorium very well, but I certainly remember the walking.

00:28:13.636 --> 00:28:16.580
So my son's coffin was about, I don't know, about that

00:28:16.621 --> 00:28:17.040
big.

00:28:17.761 --> 00:28:23.890
And I carried his coffin down to the, when my dad was there with his arm around me.

00:28:24.951 --> 00:28:31.948
You know, like I said, I think having that shared experience with my parents is, been a good thing.

00:28:32.648 --> 00:28:34.531
Dad doesn't talk about emotions very often.

00:28:34.991 --> 00:28:36.493
My dad's a man's man.

00:28:37.095 --> 00:28:38.917
Older generation as well, isn't he?

00:28:39.498 --> 00:28:48.671
But the amount of different conversations I've had with my mum, yeah, she's a different level, my mum.

00:28:49.913 --> 00:28:54.057
My parents, they definitely not deserve the three sons that they've got.

00:28:54.077 --> 00:28:56.101
A million percent, they deserve three sons with...

00:28:56.993 --> 00:29:12.134
more credit and credibility to where I know today the seeping's different obviously because you know what I've done but yeah back in the day I just don't really didn't really understand the pain and misery I was causing people I think because I was in so much pain and

00:29:13.195 --> 00:29:14.176
I just wanted

00:29:14.237 --> 00:29:17.060
I just wanted people to feel what I was feeling I think I

00:29:17.080 --> 00:29:26.493
get that I get that completely how did how did the death of Matthew affect your the relationship with Matthew and Katie's mum?

00:29:29.346 --> 00:29:37.085
I mean, we had two more kids after it, but I would have said, My ex, she just didn't deal with it very well.

00:29:37.905 --> 00:29:40.949
So his remembrance was 16 for June, just gone.

00:29:41.609 --> 00:29:49.939
And it's the first time she's ever come to where we've laid his ashes to rest, because we laid his ashes to rest on the dock just after I got out of jail.

00:29:50.378 --> 00:29:52.821
An event happened, but I'd rather not discuss that.

00:29:52.842 --> 00:29:53.423
No, no, we don't have to.

00:29:53.442 --> 00:29:54.663
I can discuss that with you later.

00:29:56.065 --> 00:30:00.230
But an event happened, and I think it was very immature, to be fair.

00:30:00.546 --> 00:30:06.372
He was trying to live like an adult-grown-up relationship, and there was no adult-grown-up relationship to it.

00:30:06.792 --> 00:30:08.454
I'd cheat on her, she'd cheat on me.

00:30:09.215 --> 00:30:11.818
I want the greatest boyfriend, if I'm honest.

00:30:13.721 --> 00:30:21.990
But again, probably being young and naive, I thought, you control people like that, don't you?

00:30:22.150 --> 00:30:24.251
This is what I'm saying, your kids in itself.

00:30:24.332 --> 00:30:28.938
If I could give advice to anyone, it would be have children later in life.

00:30:29.442 --> 00:30:38.392
Because I think not resentment towards children, but I think in a way there's a level of resentment towards each other and your partners.

00:30:38.491 --> 00:30:44.999
And maybe you might feel like you haven't done the things you wanted to do, what you thought you was going to do, and that resentment will manifest in different ways.

00:30:45.098 --> 00:30:50.765
But having a child as well, that's when you're in each other's life forever.

00:30:50.785 --> 00:30:54.969
I mean, in terms of my own life, getting married to my wife was one thing.

00:30:55.682 --> 00:30:57.405
We could get divorced and never see each other again.

00:30:58.008 --> 00:30:59.111
We got a mortgage together.

00:30:59.131 --> 00:31:02.077
Again, we could separate, never see each other again.

00:31:02.659 --> 00:31:09.455
But once you have children with someone, you know, birthdays, maybe your kids' weddings.

00:31:10.241 --> 00:31:12.403
you're in your life forever now that's

00:31:12.443 --> 00:31:13.545
the moment where you're in

00:31:13.644 --> 00:31:14.085
your life forever

00:31:14.425 --> 00:31:45.212
I mean me and Don are a lot older now as well we get on really really well now it's like the events that happened in the past never really happened you know our kids and grandkids are gorgeous and they're happy and that's what counts for me and just like you said my kids weren't that in Wonderland because I mean our Paddy's just having a new baby now and he's 37 you know and it's 15 years between his first one and this one so my full deal man But I think you'll enjoy it because he's having a little girl as well and he's got a boy.

00:31:45.353 --> 00:31:51.259
But I think today, when you look at the full aspect of your life, I'm a lucky man.

00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:55.022
I'm a really, really lucky man that I've got four beautiful kids.

00:31:55.083 --> 00:31:55.903
I've got grandkids.

00:31:56.384 --> 00:31:58.205
I've got two parents who adore me.

00:31:58.807 --> 00:32:02.049
I've got two brothers who need a kick up their ass sometimes.

00:32:03.010 --> 00:32:08.215
But I always felt like I was the oldest when I was the youngest and most maturest out of me and my brothers.

00:32:08.777 --> 00:32:09.416
But again...

00:32:10.465 --> 00:32:12.548
Yeah, I was really good at making bad choices, I think.

00:32:13.689 --> 00:32:14.128
Yeah.

00:32:14.148 --> 00:32:15.630
I didn't even have to practice then.

00:32:15.650 --> 00:32:17.031
It just fucking came really easy.

00:32:17.471 --> 00:32:18.573
Go on then, I'll do that.

00:32:19.073 --> 00:32:20.434
I think I was more of a sheep, wasn't I?

00:32:20.575 --> 00:32:24.137
I just followed the flock, really, rather than now I consider myself today.

00:32:24.198 --> 00:32:25.439
I'm the shepherd, mate.

00:32:25.519 --> 00:32:26.660
I'm in charge of my flock.

00:32:26.759 --> 00:32:29.742
No longer does the flock dictate what I'm doing with me.

00:32:30.202 --> 00:32:39.431
I dictate to my flock, and I think that works really well, especially in my recovery and seeing it in a different way to how a lot of people might see their own recovery.

00:32:39.750 --> 00:32:46.787
So going forward, From, you know, injecting records, did you move on to heroin?

00:32:47.007 --> 00:32:47.669
Not straight away.

00:32:47.969 --> 00:32:48.971
Went how long?

00:32:48.991 --> 00:32:50.836
Give me the story of

00:32:51.116 --> 00:32:52.519
how that came about.

00:32:52.539 --> 00:32:54.263
How it came to using heroin.

00:32:55.686 --> 00:32:56.630
So I was 27.

00:32:57.281 --> 00:32:58.262
So I was quite old, really.

00:32:58.522 --> 00:33:01.046
I'd stopped records years before.

00:33:01.405 --> 00:33:03.688
I think I only used records up to when I was 24.

00:33:04.648 --> 00:33:06.830
Did you have to do like a detox or anything?

00:33:06.851 --> 00:33:07.672
I had to do a rattle.

00:33:07.832 --> 00:33:09.173
Yeah, okay, just went through a rattle.

00:33:09.212 --> 00:33:15.499
Just went through a rattle to get off D, but there was other drugs to do that rattle, you know, as you do.

00:33:15.538 --> 00:33:16.180
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:33:16.200 --> 00:33:22.665
I did my rattle, smoked weed, really, for the next three years, not really taking hardcore stuff.

00:33:22.726 --> 00:33:24.207
Like I said, I was playing rugby.

00:33:24.227 --> 00:33:25.808
I mean, I was fit as a fiddle.

00:33:26.229 --> 00:33:27.069
I was.

00:33:27.362 --> 00:33:30.707
I can see you smiling now, thinking, oh, those were the days

00:33:31.227 --> 00:33:32.789
when I could run more than two minutes.

00:33:32.809 --> 00:33:42.983
I think to me, the reason it makes me smile is because I had such a good life and I threw so much away for one bad choice, really.

00:33:43.704 --> 00:33:44.605
You know, I was 27.

00:33:44.946 --> 00:33:47.830
My relationship had proper broken down.

00:33:48.070 --> 00:33:49.773
Because even though I...

00:33:50.178 --> 00:33:56.147
Katie, when I was 23, me and Donna were still seeing each other and sleeping with each other and stuff.

00:33:56.229 --> 00:33:59.894
And that relationship finally broke down when I was about 26, 27.

00:34:00.256 --> 00:34:03.221
So at that point, I started going to my brother's.

00:34:03.540 --> 00:34:05.484
Well, he was already using heroin at this point.

00:34:06.226 --> 00:34:41.625
And within, look, I didn't take heroin because anybody in that building went you're going to use this and that's how it is my naivety of going wrong place wrong time go on and I'll have a go on that I never knew at that point where the next 10 years was going to go I didn't sink my hand in the air and go do you know what fuck it I'll be a smack head for 10 years it sounds like a right laugh mum and dad will be proud my kids will be proud it wasn't like that again I should have known better because of the records and that but I didn't care.

00:34:41.684 --> 00:34:45.130
Obviously, I didn't care enough to give it enough forethought to go.

00:34:45.831 --> 00:34:47.572
That's not a very good thing.

00:34:47.592 --> 00:34:48.855
You shouldn't be making this choice.

00:34:48.934 --> 00:34:49.315
Go on.

00:34:49.576 --> 00:34:52.298
Obviously, like you've said, there was no counselling.

00:34:52.820 --> 00:34:55.864
There's no way at this point you'd have processed the loss of Matthew.

00:34:56.003 --> 00:34:58.166
I ain't processing it now.

00:34:58.226 --> 00:34:59.329
I'm 53 years

00:34:59.469 --> 00:34:59.748
old.

00:35:00.670 --> 00:35:05.637
I guess that continued escapism is going to be a theme in where your life was going.

00:35:05.677 --> 00:35:08.481
Had that thought of...

00:35:09.922 --> 00:35:12.626
loss and bereavement contributed at that time?

00:35:12.806 --> 00:35:14.427
Or was it just a spare of the moment?

00:35:14.869 --> 00:35:16.911
You're using, I'll have something.

00:35:16.952 --> 00:35:18.514
Yeah, I had nothing to do with the bereavement.

00:35:18.574 --> 00:35:21.958
None of my drug users ever had anything to do with the bereavement.

00:35:22.119 --> 00:35:24.782
Like I said, I would never sit here and put that on.

00:35:24.822 --> 00:35:27.085
Yeah, I completely understand that.

00:35:27.326 --> 00:35:29.047
Because I'd be lying, you know.

00:35:29.128 --> 00:35:30.990
Now, that was the case.

00:35:31.070 --> 00:35:33.655
I would hand on that, go, this is the reason why.

00:35:34.175 --> 00:35:35.396
But a million percent it wasn't.

00:35:35.617 --> 00:35:35.938
It was...

00:35:36.385 --> 00:35:37.427
a naive choice.

00:35:37.929 --> 00:35:39.231
I had a good life, like I said.

00:35:39.391 --> 00:35:41.835
I was now bringing two of my children up.

00:35:41.875 --> 00:35:42.876
I had a good background.

00:35:42.916 --> 00:35:44.099
I had a good life behind me.

00:35:44.139 --> 00:35:44.920
I was working.

00:35:45.862 --> 00:35:46.983
I was doing the right thing.

00:35:47.664 --> 00:35:49.327
Just one choice.

00:35:50.230 --> 00:35:52.554
I mean, where it took me in the next 10 years is...

00:35:53.538 --> 00:35:57.063
is a place that nobody probably ever would want to go.

00:35:57.423 --> 00:35:58.907
But again, I hid it really, really well.

00:35:59.166 --> 00:36:00.588
Talk me through those 10 years then.

00:36:00.869 --> 00:36:06.219
What was the worst moment in that 10 years of heroin use that you experienced?

00:36:07.059 --> 00:36:07.641
There's a couple.

00:36:07.800 --> 00:36:09.324
There's two that stand out.

00:36:10.846 --> 00:36:14.913
So I was injected in my groin, in my right leg.

00:36:15.373 --> 00:36:17.938
And my right leg had swollen up to about...

00:36:18.434 --> 00:36:20.096
twice the size of what it currently is.

00:36:20.235 --> 00:36:21.557
It was really, really painful.

00:36:22.079 --> 00:36:25.623
But like most addicts back in the day, I'll sort it tomorrow.

00:36:26.204 --> 00:36:27.206
I'll sort it tomorrow.

00:36:27.626 --> 00:36:28.628
I remember standing up.

00:36:29.389 --> 00:36:30.990
We'd just scored when we was going to use.

00:36:31.030 --> 00:36:32.032
And I remember standing up.

00:36:32.132 --> 00:36:36.898
And as I stood up, where I used to inject in my groin, there was an hole.

00:36:37.559 --> 00:36:38.420
And it just popped.

00:36:39.101 --> 00:36:48.094
And all of a sudden, this brown, green, stinking, horrible, gooey stuff just started squirting out of my groin like a...

00:36:48.289 --> 00:36:49.032
like a fountain.

00:36:50.375 --> 00:36:55.126
And I'd have been at home, it was about, I don't know, about that far, about that high.

00:36:56.068 --> 00:37:01.981
While I was filling that up with this green, brown, stinking shit, ah, I'd just go in the other side.

00:37:02.561 --> 00:37:08.032
So all that squirting out of there, I mean, that side doing exactly the same to that side as what I'd done to that side.

00:37:08.233 --> 00:37:11.018
But here, you know, that's the cons,

00:37:11.119 --> 00:37:11.378
pros

00:37:11.398 --> 00:37:11.478
and

00:37:11.619 --> 00:37:12.621
cons of what I was doing.

00:37:13.443 --> 00:37:14.445
What was the logic?

00:37:14.465 --> 00:37:17.010
Talk me through that logic, because obviously that sounds insane.

00:37:17.130 --> 00:37:18.132
This is happening to this lake.

00:37:18.172 --> 00:37:18.934
I don't know what I'll do.

00:37:19.655 --> 00:37:20.376
I'll use the other one.

00:37:20.476 --> 00:37:21.679
It was easy, wasn't

00:37:21.759 --> 00:37:21.880
it?

00:37:21.900 --> 00:37:23.001
I didn't value myself today.

00:37:23.266 --> 00:37:26.048
You know, if I die, who's going to fucking miss me?

00:37:26.170 --> 00:37:26.510
Yeah.

00:37:26.730 --> 00:37:27.070
You know?

00:37:27.391 --> 00:37:31.034
I mean, my mindset then was people would be better off without me anywhere.

00:37:31.376 --> 00:37:32.297
I'm not fucking God.

00:37:32.878 --> 00:37:34.179
It had been reinforced for me.

00:37:34.800 --> 00:37:40.827
You know, I'm probably one of the few that actually still lives in the same house that I had my habit on and the estate that I grew up on.

00:37:41.547 --> 00:37:41.628
Yeah.

00:37:41.648 --> 00:37:49.157
You know, so on my estate, I'd gone from everybody liking me, being a really popular person, to within...

00:37:49.954 --> 00:37:53.858
weeks of me starting to use heroin going into a smack head.

00:37:54.300 --> 00:37:58.085
You know, probably for me, the most hurtful part of that period of my life.

00:37:58.865 --> 00:38:02.331
I'm telling you, I'm sat here saying I had this great life and had these great mates.

00:38:02.471 --> 00:38:05.193
Not one of them ever came and knocked on my door and went, what the fuck are you doing?

00:38:06.115 --> 00:38:07.277
Come and get back to rugby.

00:38:07.518 --> 00:38:08.739
Come on, what the fuck are you doing?

00:38:09.239 --> 00:38:10.121
Don't be doing this.

00:38:10.181 --> 00:38:10.742
Not one of them.

00:38:11.222 --> 00:38:13.726
Instantly, hands washed to me, you're a fucking smack head.

00:38:14.045 --> 00:38:14.726
You're no good.

00:38:15.128 --> 00:38:17.371
And then all that was reinforced for the 10 next year.

00:38:17.391 --> 00:38:19.554
It was how shit I was and how bad I am.

00:38:20.353 --> 00:38:21.677
And how much of a scumbag I am.

00:38:22.378 --> 00:38:23.943
And I took that on, didn't I?

00:38:23.963 --> 00:38:26.028
You know, you get told something enough, you believe it.

00:38:26.048 --> 00:38:26.751
You believe it, yeah.

00:38:26.931 --> 00:38:27.211
You know?

00:38:27.954 --> 00:38:29.358
It's like that no good stick, innit?

00:38:29.378 --> 00:38:30.280
I'm no fucking good, mate.

00:38:30.300 --> 00:38:30.961
I'll never change.

00:38:31.342 --> 00:38:31.764
Yeah.

00:38:31.945 --> 00:38:33.409
And that's basically what I did for years.

00:38:33.969 --> 00:38:34.652
Why should I change?

00:38:34.731 --> 00:38:35.173
I'm no good.

00:38:35.489 --> 00:38:36.652
Nobody cares about me.

00:38:36.731 --> 00:38:37.934
I didn't even care about myself.

00:38:38.333 --> 00:38:41.599
How can you expect other people to care about you when you don't even care about yourself?

00:38:41.619 --> 00:38:44.403
All

00:38:44.443 --> 00:38:46.686
the responsibility lies at my door.

00:38:47.088 --> 00:38:48.990
It doesn't lie at anybody else's door.

00:38:49.552 --> 00:38:52.775
I was the one who made them choices for whatever reasons.

00:38:53.478 --> 00:38:54.820
It was me who went, go on then.

00:38:55.760 --> 00:38:56.561
Naively.

00:38:56.601 --> 00:38:57.824
So what happened in that moment then?

00:38:57.864 --> 00:38:59.246
Filling this bin up with...

00:38:59.447 --> 00:39:05.619
Well, like I said, I'm filling this bin up in my living room, fucking, and I'm in the other side injecting.

00:39:06.681 --> 00:39:07.661
Was you by yourself at the time?

00:39:07.722 --> 00:39:08.724
No, I was with my partner.

00:39:08.824 --> 00:39:09.625
Yeah, yeah.

00:39:10.005 --> 00:39:10.626
With my partner.

00:39:10.847 --> 00:39:11.849
Yeah, just, yeah.

00:39:11.869 --> 00:39:13.050
It's what you did, wasn't it?

00:39:13.891 --> 00:39:16.936
You know, I was living the lifestyle that what you did is just what you did.

00:39:17.036 --> 00:39:18.498
It came with part of you.

00:39:18.518 --> 00:39:20.882
It was like, you don't accept it.

00:39:20.961 --> 00:39:22.824
It's just what it is.

00:39:22.844 --> 00:39:23.865
I'd used all my burns.

00:39:24.668 --> 00:39:26.130
I was such a bad injector.

00:39:26.753 --> 00:39:29.016
My practices was absolutely fucking shit.

00:39:29.056 --> 00:39:32.139
And now I know what I know about arm reduction being an arm reduction work.

00:39:32.159 --> 00:39:35.181
I can understand why I'm his age as quick as it did.

00:39:35.842 --> 00:39:39.525
You know, but I was listening to street doctors back in the day, weren't they?

00:39:39.686 --> 00:39:43.889
How many rational people would let somebody inject them with something?

00:39:43.949 --> 00:39:45.411
Let alone it not be heroin.

00:39:45.452 --> 00:39:46.353
It could be anything.

00:39:46.992 --> 00:39:48.655
You know, what rational person does that?

00:39:49.856 --> 00:39:52.038
Not many rational people do that.

00:39:52.217 --> 00:39:52.498
So what

00:39:52.539 --> 00:39:53.199
was this then?

00:39:53.239 --> 00:39:55.081
Did you go to doctors with this?

00:39:55.621 --> 00:39:55.961
No.

00:39:56.322 --> 00:40:32.342
no eventually I ended up going to hospital with my leg and I had a DVT in it but again that stigma down at the end of the ward curtain around me you know there's 30 people on the ward they've got their curtains around them so again stigmatised for what I'm doing to myself I understand it but that doesn't make it acceptable you know I think a lot of good things have actually come out of my addiction to be fair I'm a more rounded person than I've ever been a million percent I am And I think that's because of my own experience of stigma for choices that I was making.

00:40:32.461 --> 00:40:33.744
Like I said, I wasn't a bad person.

00:40:33.784 --> 00:40:35.045
I was making bad choices.

00:40:35.065 --> 00:40:38.650
A million percent, I'd agree with that.

00:40:39.050 --> 00:40:42.554
I always knew deep down inside I was better than what I was doing to myself.

00:40:42.775 --> 00:40:44.197
I just didn't know how to escape it.

00:40:45.077 --> 00:40:47.402
Luckily for me, my two brothers got clean before me.

00:40:48.382 --> 00:40:55.219
So when it became my time, And again, I fell into two old friends as well who was both in recovery.

00:40:55.599 --> 00:40:57.784
So I had four people around me already in recovery.

00:40:57.804 --> 00:40:59.065
I didn't even know what recovery was.

00:40:59.226 --> 00:41:00.369
You know, I wanted a service.

00:41:00.389 --> 00:41:00.829
I was a doctor.

00:41:00.869 --> 00:41:02.592
Here, I just get back off.

00:41:03.295 --> 00:41:04.677
I just get back off, you know.

00:41:06.081 --> 00:41:12.070
So my detox and getting clean was done around people who was already doing it.

00:41:12.851 --> 00:41:17.356
And again, I've never been in services, so none of us knew about total abstinence.

00:41:17.436 --> 00:41:23.262
I've been in recovery 15 years, but I've only been 100% clean for the last 12.

00:41:23.742 --> 00:41:31.331
Because my first three years, I was drinking three times a week, I was going out on a weekend, I was having a line of coke, I was still involved in that.

00:41:31.530 --> 00:41:35.335
But I'm not using heroin anymore, I'm not on methadone.

00:41:35.434 --> 00:41:38.717
Life's fucking back to normal, back to being happy.

00:41:38.882 --> 00:41:43.588
Again, not really understanding that that next thing could have become my next thing.

00:41:44.469 --> 00:41:44.550
Yeah.

00:41:44.570 --> 00:41:48.014
And then when I was 37 and when

00:41:48.054 --> 00:41:49.496
I started throwing my life out...

00:41:49.516 --> 00:41:52.842
Actually, just before we go into the recovery, you said there was two rock-bottom moments.

00:41:53.081 --> 00:41:54.204
Tell me the second one as well.

00:41:54.244 --> 00:41:57.407
The second rock-bottom moment is probably the one that I shot most.

00:41:57.427 --> 00:41:58.990
There was an injection in my penis.

00:42:01.653 --> 00:42:06.862
To be able to listen to the audio version, they won't see my face there, but explain...

00:42:08.577 --> 00:42:09.358
Explain that.

00:42:09.619 --> 00:42:11.461
I've never heard of anybody.

00:42:11.481 --> 00:42:13.965
I know there's veins there.

00:42:14.184 --> 00:42:16.447
My last thing would be to thinking I'm going to inject into...

00:42:16.467 --> 00:42:22.335
I've gone in places where people probably wouldn't know because they don't know the history of probably injecting.

00:42:22.375 --> 00:42:22.956
So my neck.

00:42:23.257 --> 00:42:23.476
Yes.

00:42:23.737 --> 00:42:25.458
My neck was the first place that I went in.

00:42:26.139 --> 00:42:27.222
Someone else did it for me.

00:42:27.242 --> 00:42:31.226
It was the most scariest thing that I'd ever done and that only ever happened once.

00:42:31.306 --> 00:42:32.327
It never happened again.

00:42:33.349 --> 00:42:37.054
And the reason I ended up growing in my penis was because now my groins are knackered.

00:42:37.217 --> 00:42:38.298
I can't get them.

00:42:38.619 --> 00:42:39.641
I've got no brains.

00:42:40.641 --> 00:42:45.809
I'm putting 20 quids off a gear in a spoon, cooking it up, and going to having it.

00:42:45.889 --> 00:42:50.775
And three hours later, I've still got it in my hand, and now it's full of blood, and it's shit, and it's congealed.

00:42:50.835 --> 00:42:54.900
And in fairness, when you do get it, it's pointless because it's not any good anymore.

00:42:56.322 --> 00:42:58.844
So absolutely desperate.

00:42:58.905 --> 00:42:59.965
I was rattling my tits off.

00:43:00.481 --> 00:43:01.862
And I thought, you know what?

00:43:02.443 --> 00:43:03.445
This is a good idea.

00:43:04.164 --> 00:43:07.387
This is a good idea.

00:43:07.788 --> 00:43:08.068
How?

00:43:08.548 --> 00:43:09.590
How did you look at me?

00:43:09.610 --> 00:43:11.291
This is a good idea.

00:43:11.311 --> 00:43:15.675
I think the reward obviously outweighed the risk, didn't it?

00:43:15.894 --> 00:43:16.215
Right, right, yeah.

00:43:16.275 --> 00:43:17.797
You know, a bit like my neck.

00:43:17.936 --> 00:43:19.177
I would have said that personally.

00:43:19.318 --> 00:43:20.599
A bit like my neck, right?

00:43:20.840 --> 00:43:23.001
When I injected in my neck, I didn't consider it.

00:43:23.041 --> 00:43:25.603
If anything, I've only got one fucking head, haven't I?

00:43:25.804 --> 00:43:26.804
You know, you fucked that.

00:43:26.824 --> 00:43:28.306
A bit like my knob.

00:43:28.766 --> 00:43:30.168
You know, if something had gone wrong...

00:43:30.447 --> 00:43:34.456
I'd have been abstinent for the rest of my life if I'd have been cut off, wouldn't I?

00:43:34.737 --> 00:43:37.101
But, yeah, I was desperate.

00:43:37.541 --> 00:43:42.010
I wouldn't say I was rattling because I wasn't, but I was just desperate to use.

00:43:42.192 --> 00:43:50.268
Anyway, you know, I sit on the edge of my toilet, I've got my case around my hand, I'm fucking shitting like fuck and sweat's pouring down, I've got my cock in my hand.

00:43:51.489 --> 00:43:53.793
Got it first time, oh, fucking hell.

00:43:54.414 --> 00:43:56.856
And it just gives you that feeling like it would anywhere else.

00:43:57.577 --> 00:44:00.039
So that created a second charge in it, didn't it?

00:44:00.521 --> 00:44:03.985
Well, that time it went like jet black and it didn't look good.

00:44:04.706 --> 00:44:07.429
So that was when I decided to smoke it, actually.

00:44:07.590 --> 00:44:10.032
And that was a godsend of all godsends, to be

00:44:10.072 --> 00:44:10.793
fair.

00:44:10.833 --> 00:44:16.139
So, to be fair, because obviously you can educate me on this one a little bit, but I've never thought about that.

00:44:16.159 --> 00:44:17.641
If you're in that position...

00:44:18.753 --> 00:44:19.494
You're in addiction.

00:44:19.894 --> 00:44:21.317
You've got nowhere to inject.

00:44:21.336 --> 00:44:27.804
That idea of I'll just smoke it instead doesn't seem like an option to a lot of people.

00:44:27.945 --> 00:44:29.867
It wasn't really an option to me.

00:44:29.927 --> 00:44:30.889
No, no, but that's what I mean.

00:44:30.929 --> 00:44:35.974
Instead, as you've just said then, you'll find the most riskiest place to inject it.

00:44:36.034 --> 00:44:38.918
How come that isn't really a thing that people think of?

00:44:38.978 --> 00:44:40.300
Like, I'll tell you what, I'll just smoke it instead.

00:44:40.400 --> 00:44:42.663
How come people don't have that as a logical

00:44:43.043 --> 00:44:43.244
solution?

00:44:43.264 --> 00:44:46.447
Because of the difference between smoking heroin and injecting heroin.

00:44:46.728 --> 00:44:46.989
What is

00:44:47.068 --> 00:44:47.208
that?

00:44:47.248 --> 00:44:48.190
Well...

00:44:48.673 --> 00:44:51.976
Obviously, when you're injecting heroin, you're getting the full whack, aren't you?

00:44:52.257 --> 00:44:53.199
Every little bit of it.

00:44:53.219 --> 00:44:53.838
Straight into the bloodstream.

00:44:53.878 --> 00:44:56.302
Straight into the bloodstream, straight to the brain, bang.

00:44:57.543 --> 00:45:03.349
When you're smoking it, 25% of it's going up the side of the tilt air and burning away on the foil.

00:45:03.429 --> 00:45:11.577
So if you're buying a tenner bag and you smoke it, you're probably going to get six and a half quids off after what's gone up the side and what you do burning it.

00:45:11.918 --> 00:45:15.581
But smoking was better than not using it.

00:45:16.226 --> 00:45:17.226
In all fairness.

00:45:17.288 --> 00:45:21.313
But when I started smoking it, I was only psychologically fixing myself.

00:45:21.452 --> 00:45:22.153
I know that now.

00:45:22.894 --> 00:45:25.840
And I not wanted to sit around and gouch off it.

00:45:25.880 --> 00:45:29.083
But that being said, right, I wasn't really a gouchy person.

00:45:29.425 --> 00:45:31.206
And that's why I functioned really, really well.

00:45:31.628 --> 00:45:33.170
You know, we see a lot of old types, don't we?

00:45:33.190 --> 00:45:34.672
They'll use and that's it for five hours.

00:45:34.811 --> 00:45:39.097
It definitely wasn't like that for me at all.

00:45:39.579 --> 00:45:44.445
You know, I had deals with my children was at school when I was in bed on a night time.

00:45:44.577 --> 00:45:46.864
I never ever use around my children.

00:45:47.606 --> 00:45:51.599
But the naivety of that is, you think your children don't know.

00:45:51.880 --> 00:45:54.789
I was about to say, did they know then?

00:45:54.829 --> 00:45:57.036
Now my children are adults and we can sit down.

00:45:57.135 --> 00:45:58.099
You've had these conversations, yeah.

00:45:58.119 --> 00:45:58.701
I'm a very...

00:45:59.681 --> 00:46:01.463
I like to take responsibility.

00:46:01.483 --> 00:46:05.949
So if my kids say to me, this happened, I would never stand there and go, no, it fucking didn't.

00:46:06.710 --> 00:46:09.552
Although I know I was off my tits most of the time.

00:46:09.592 --> 00:46:11.235
So they dressed me up as a woman once.

00:46:11.735 --> 00:46:15.239
I have no recollection of it, but they'll have their heads off at it.

00:46:15.559 --> 00:46:17.181
And I would never sit there and go, that didn't happen.

00:46:17.663 --> 00:46:19.625
And there's horrible stuff in there as well.

00:46:20.365 --> 00:46:27.233
There was a few times that my children found one mills in the house.

00:46:27.650 --> 00:46:34.822
You know, but that blind naivety, your own belief is, they don't know what's happening, they're only kids.

00:46:35.503 --> 00:46:42.737
But the older adults have told me, you know, when my bedroom door was shut, they didn't know I was in there injecting and taking drugs, but they knew something was going on in there.

00:46:43.358 --> 00:46:45.041
So that affected them as children.

00:46:45.442 --> 00:46:47.646
You know, my kids got so bullied.

00:46:48.034 --> 00:46:49.637
and picked on because of what I was...

00:46:49.938 --> 00:46:53.184
I mean, there was times when I'd have 30 people outside my house wanting to wear me in.

00:46:54.005 --> 00:46:58.094
Not because I was out burgling people or doing bad things, because I was an alien addict.

00:46:58.635 --> 00:47:01.018
Pure and...

00:47:01.079 --> 00:47:02.181
You know what the worst part is?

00:47:02.603 --> 00:47:06.269
The people who was outside criticising me, I was scoring my fucking drugs off their parents.

00:47:06.561 --> 00:47:10.244
You know, those terrifying, my children, those coming to my house.

00:47:10.626 --> 00:47:15.449
Walk up one day with fucking smack heads spread all over my house and that scumbag get out.

00:47:16.010 --> 00:47:19.432
You know, so I set my back garden on fire.

00:47:19.472 --> 00:47:22.235
Nearly killed me in a fucking arson attack.

00:47:23.797 --> 00:47:24.518
Yeah, it was like...

00:47:24.657 --> 00:47:25.679
All just because you...

00:47:25.978 --> 00:47:26.780
Because I took everything.

00:47:27.119 --> 00:47:29.001
Like I said, I wasn't out baggling people, Matt.

00:47:29.041 --> 00:47:30.943
I wasn't doing bad things, you know.

00:47:31.222 --> 00:47:32.344
I was bringing my children up.

00:47:32.704 --> 00:47:44.780
My partner was a manager of Belmont Club and all and I showed her earning£600 a week we didn't claim together i was getting 250 quid a week for my kids we could spend 400 quid a week on gear and it not find out she impacts us

00:47:45.322 --> 00:47:45.461
yeah

00:47:45.601 --> 00:47:55.697
you know we still went on holiday we still had internet we had a car we had everything what you would call normal people had except we took everyone you know that's

00:47:55.757 --> 00:48:02.068
all why do you think there was this negative stigma attached to you then and this this prejudice and hurt that you experienced

00:48:02.268 --> 00:48:05.833
you're smacking at you You're lower than the lot, aren't you?

00:48:05.893 --> 00:48:08.297
People just check it upon themselves.

00:48:08.336 --> 00:48:10.760
They think they know you and they think they know what you're doing.

00:48:11.561 --> 00:48:15.206
People need a villain, don't they?

00:48:15.226 --> 00:48:23.056
The bad thing is, right, Matt, and this is the same for everybody who's caught it, if you're read, smack head Rob's pensioner of money, it's not just him, is it?

00:48:23.777 --> 00:48:26.681
It's everybody who now uses heroin, it's just like that.

00:48:27.302 --> 00:48:29.686
And you get tired with that brush.

00:48:30.050 --> 00:48:31.411
Like I said, I want a bad person.

00:48:31.612 --> 00:48:38.543
It goes back to what you're saying about your former thoughts of racism and things like that.

00:48:38.643 --> 00:48:40.186
And it's partly the same thing, isn't it?

00:48:40.206 --> 00:48:49.480
Things you see in newspapers and you instantly go, ah, I get it, I connect with it, I understand it, and therefore you just tar everybody with the same brush.

00:48:49.920 --> 00:48:58.233
Obviously you spoke then about experiencing that level of stigma and prejudice for being, quote-unquote, smackhead.

00:48:59.266 --> 00:49:02.210
Do you still live in that estate or that area?

00:49:02.231 --> 00:49:03.952
Yeah, I still live in the same house I had my habit in.

00:49:04.054 --> 00:49:05.556
So, I was going to say, I thought you said that.

00:49:05.596 --> 00:49:08.039
So, what's the sort of reaction to you now that

00:49:08.059 --> 00:49:08.260
you're...

00:49:08.440 --> 00:49:10.744
It's obviously a lot more positive.

00:49:10.764 --> 00:49:10.943
Yeah, yeah.

00:49:10.963 --> 00:49:14.150
People actually nod at you and let on to you.

00:49:14.349 --> 00:49:17.074
Some people are just like, yeah, whatever.

00:49:17.193 --> 00:49:18.195
Yeah, yeah.

00:49:18.697 --> 00:49:18.976
But...

00:49:19.873 --> 00:49:21.514
It's been a good response, I think.

00:49:22.436 --> 00:49:26.920
I've never had nobody knocking at my door in the last 15 years anyway, giving me grief for being a baghead.

00:49:28.121 --> 00:49:31.623
It has been really positive because I am quite well known.

00:49:32.764 --> 00:49:36.047
On me, I say I'm quite well known in services now because of what I do.

00:49:36.608 --> 00:49:44.554
But I think the recovery part of my life, the proper recovery part of my life, has probably been a really, really positive experience.

00:49:44.594 --> 00:49:44.795
What

00:49:44.835 --> 00:49:46.257
brought that on then?

00:49:46.297 --> 00:50:02.175
To go through everything that you've gone through, and again, I know the two aren't attached, But going through the grief and bereavement and then going through dependency and those issues that you had there, what was it that brought you to the point where you thought, right, it's time to

00:50:02.856 --> 00:50:03.217
stop?

00:50:03.376 --> 00:50:06.862
I was 37 now, so I'd been using probably 10 years.

00:50:07.262 --> 00:50:10.226
Like I said, my physical health wasn't great.

00:50:11.106 --> 00:50:12.487
Me and my partner were still together.

00:50:12.527 --> 00:50:18.715
When my partner ended up leaving, because she was the biggest breadwinner in the house, it took 600 quid a week out of the household.

00:50:20.657 --> 00:50:30.010
Two weeks later, one Saturday, I woke up and I had my mum on me money, I had my fucking drug dealer on me money, and I just thought, you know what, I can't keep doing this anymore, something needs to change.

00:50:31.092 --> 00:50:38.380
Well, I had a mate, and again, I'll come to something which is really positive as well later on, but yeah, I had a mate, so...

00:50:39.170 --> 00:50:44.195
I went and borrowed more money off my man, 28 quid, and bought 28 benzos.

00:50:44.536 --> 00:50:55.527
So at 37, I was using 50 quid a day and injecting 50 quid a day.

00:50:57.130 --> 00:50:59.472
Wasn't really into tablets and stuff like that.

00:51:00.293 --> 00:51:03.436
So I went and got 28 quid, went and bought 28 benzos.

00:51:03.496 --> 00:51:04.157
I was with Dr.

00:51:04.197 --> 00:51:07.320
Weir, so he'd given you anything except for a script.

00:51:08.994 --> 00:51:13.679
Started to do my rattle, basically, from the team for Ghia back then.

00:51:13.719 --> 00:51:16.001
I was on six of them and a methadone as well at this point.

00:51:16.641 --> 00:51:22.708
So over about seven days, I did my rattle from using the team for Ghia down to stopping.

00:51:23.309 --> 00:51:26.253
But the first three months was probably quite a bit of a miss.

00:51:26.313 --> 00:51:31.739
I'd not used for three days and then maybe used for one, but then not used for five days and used for three.

00:51:32.318 --> 00:51:34.822
But I think the days that I was not using was...

00:51:35.137 --> 00:51:39.528
then being reinforced that I can actually go through a day without needing COs.

00:51:39.949 --> 00:51:44.742
And then I had the impact of my two brothers already being in recovery and my two friends being in recovery.

00:51:45.182 --> 00:51:46.786
My kids being rarely supported.

00:51:48.418 --> 00:51:51.663
Did me rattle down to my meth over two weeks.

00:51:52.224 --> 00:51:53.686
Obviously, again, because I was with Dr.

00:51:53.706 --> 00:51:54.788
Ian, there was no detox.

00:51:54.849 --> 00:51:56.170
I was going to say, was there a

00:51:56.251 --> 00:51:57.333
detox or a structure to

00:51:57.432 --> 00:51:57.512
it?

00:51:57.552 --> 00:52:02.019
So the structure was by my pharmacist, a Spanish guy called Antonio.

00:52:02.300 --> 00:52:05.565
If it weren't for Antonio, trust me, I wouldn't be sat here today.

00:52:05.954 --> 00:52:06.755
He believed in me.

00:52:06.795 --> 00:52:11.239
As soon as I went into my pharmacy and said, Antonio, look, mate, I'm doing this and I want to do that.

00:52:11.298 --> 00:52:14.282
He went to me, right, this is what I think we should do.

00:52:14.742 --> 00:52:18.045
I think you should go see a doctor with you and reduce three mil a fortnight.

00:52:18.365 --> 00:52:19.085
I went, are you sure?

00:52:19.567 --> 00:52:22.630
He went, mate, trust me, go see a doctor with you.

00:52:22.929 --> 00:52:23.971
I'll support you through it.

00:52:24.010 --> 00:52:24.831
We'll get you through it.

00:52:25.411 --> 00:52:29.195
And it was the most amazing experience.

00:52:29.235 --> 00:52:35.762
The first time a true professional had looked at me without stigma, without judgment, and with just care.

00:52:36.481 --> 00:52:37.182
understanding.

00:52:37.202 --> 00:52:37.483
It's insane

00:52:37.503 --> 00:52:39.965
that a pharmacist had to take on that responsibility though, isn't it?

00:52:40.224 --> 00:52:47.891
Knowing what I know now of a service like Renew and what we have, that a pharmacist was the one that had to be that point of encouragement.

00:52:47.911 --> 00:52:47.992
It

00:52:48.072 --> 00:52:49.612
was like God, wasn't it?

00:52:49.773 --> 00:52:52.496
It was the angel sent to me.

00:52:52.576 --> 00:52:55.938
And I'd known him for years because I knew that chemist for years.

00:52:56.679 --> 00:52:59.702
And I think it was something he instilled in me.

00:52:59.762 --> 00:53:11.193
And it's even nicer to believe, even more so, using that chemist for years and still believed in you and not just having that opinion of areas for his methadone and then he's going to, you know what I mean, to still have that belief in you is wonderful.

00:53:11.353 --> 00:53:12.675
It's really nice to hear that.

00:53:12.695 --> 00:53:13.237
Like I say,

00:53:14.097 --> 00:53:22.509
without that plan, without being able to move forward, without my four new people who was, I mean, like I said, we didn't know what recovery was then.

00:53:22.648 --> 00:53:27.675
We would never have considered ourselves in recovery or anything like that or abstinence, all that sort of stuff.

00:53:28.177 --> 00:53:30.583
So when I struggled, Paddy, I feel like you.

00:53:30.623 --> 00:53:31.585
Then right, Dad, get dressed.

00:53:31.606 --> 00:53:32.726
We're taking the van to park.

00:53:33.188 --> 00:53:36.132
So I was really good at picking the phone up when I was struggling.

00:53:36.512 --> 00:53:37.614
Yeah.

00:53:37.675 --> 00:53:39.797
But I was really self-determined as well.

00:53:40.599 --> 00:53:42.141
So I was just starting getting clean.

00:53:43.003 --> 00:53:44.605
I was still in that circle of people.

00:53:45.507 --> 00:53:47.009
And then someone came knocking on my door.

00:53:47.389 --> 00:53:50.014
All right, Matt, if you want to take us to Manchester to get some...

00:53:50.498 --> 00:53:50.898
Jokes.

00:53:51.699 --> 00:53:53.603
I keep wondering, yeah, no fucking problem.

00:53:54.224 --> 00:53:58.052
Anyway, I ends up taking him to Manchester on the way back outside Willy Bull Postal.

00:53:58.833 --> 00:53:59.376
No, no, no.

00:53:59.815 --> 00:54:01.400
I'll fucking help all the artillery.

00:54:02.161 --> 00:54:03.003
I'm getting out the car.

00:54:03.043 --> 00:54:04.025
You can do what you want.

00:54:04.264 --> 00:54:05.106
Anyway, pulled over.

00:54:05.206 --> 00:54:05.989
I got out the car.

00:54:06.429 --> 00:54:07.532
Fucking coppers came.

00:54:07.992 --> 00:54:10.657
Traffic cops was there, weren't they?

00:54:10.677 --> 00:54:10.717
Uh,

00:54:11.362 --> 00:54:13.184
This cop has a big bag of beers like that.

00:54:13.405 --> 00:54:15.728
He's walking to the back of the car and he's going to the camera.

00:54:16.009 --> 00:54:19.255
This is what these scumbags bring into the world to kill our children with.

00:54:20.076 --> 00:54:21.478
I'm thinking, oh no, please.

00:54:21.858 --> 00:54:23.400
This can't be happening to me.

00:54:23.521 --> 00:54:24.663
This is fucking mental.

00:54:25.684 --> 00:54:28.329
Ended up getting put on remand for a month.

00:54:28.829 --> 00:54:30.833
And I hadn't been to jail since I was like 23.

00:54:30.873 --> 00:54:34.900
So it's a good 20 plus fucking years.

00:54:35.340 --> 00:54:36.222
Do you know what though?

00:54:37.186 --> 00:54:42.092
Again, I think that experience was one of the things that kicked me up my asses as well.

00:54:42.152 --> 00:54:44.974
So I was 37, touching 38.

00:54:45.856 --> 00:54:48.420
You know, I was still responsible for my three children.

00:54:48.440 --> 00:54:50.101
You understand the weight of it at that age, don't you?

00:54:50.121 --> 00:54:50.322
Yeah.

00:54:50.922 --> 00:54:53.224
Again, you know, when you're in an environment...

00:54:53.965 --> 00:54:55.447
I'm an estate lad.

00:54:55.608 --> 00:54:57.490
I was brought up with an estate mentality.

00:54:57.570 --> 00:55:00.514
A grass is a grass is a grass sort of idiotic.

00:55:00.693 --> 00:55:01.815
Yeah, yeah, no.

00:55:02.536 --> 00:55:06.481
So being involved in Gunner Manchester...

00:55:07.233 --> 00:55:08.940
Didn't seem like a big thing.

00:55:09.623 --> 00:55:15.224
You know what the cop I said when he was walking to the back of his car was absolutely a million percent bang on wanted.

00:55:15.585 --> 00:55:18.014
I was bringing drugs into our town to kill fucking mad.

00:55:18.273 --> 00:55:19.715
people, basically.

00:55:20.235 --> 00:55:25.900
But your naivety or lack of understanding or whatever you want to call it, you're just worried about yourself.

00:55:25.940 --> 00:55:27.461
You don't give a fuck about anybody else, do you?

00:55:27.981 --> 00:55:28.822
They don't care about me.

00:55:28.882 --> 00:55:29.943
Why should I care about them?

00:55:30.364 --> 00:55:33.186
I'm only going to Manchester to get these.

00:55:33.286 --> 00:55:36.028
It's not like he's selling it to 13-year-olds.

00:55:36.048 --> 00:55:37.690
He's selling it to people who use these.

00:55:38.050 --> 00:55:41.393
A bit like when I sold for a while, I was only selling heroin to heroin addicts.

00:55:41.594 --> 00:55:44.237
I wasn't selling it to people who never used.

00:55:44.317 --> 00:55:44.496
You

00:55:44.536 --> 00:55:45.737
don't feel like you're

00:55:45.757 --> 00:55:46.237
doing harm.

00:55:46.438 --> 00:55:50.661
It was part of that circle, you know, then things come with that lifestyle, don't they?

00:55:51.061 --> 00:55:54.846
You know, that criminality lifestyle, negative things come to it.

00:55:54.865 --> 00:55:55.425
You always find

00:55:55.445 --> 00:55:58.007
a way to justify it, won't you?

00:55:58.088 --> 00:56:01.010
It's not until you look back and go, actually, yeah, that copper was right.

00:56:01.110 --> 00:56:01.170
A

00:56:01.391 --> 00:56:02.371
million percent.

00:56:02.472 --> 00:56:14.121
And I think, again, you know, one of the good things now, I'm really good at being responsible and understanding that there's only one person responsible for the choices that you're making and that comes from within yourself.

00:56:15.664 --> 00:56:20.391
Like I said, if I'd have lived the life my dad wanted me to live, It would have been totally different.

00:56:20.813 --> 00:56:23.916
It probably a million percent would have been if I'd have joined the army.

00:56:24.297 --> 00:56:25.981
Saying that, I could have been fucking killed in the army

00:56:26.001 --> 00:56:27.242
though, couldn't

00:56:27.503 --> 00:56:27.563
I?

00:56:27.583 --> 00:56:27.722
Exactly.

00:56:27.762 --> 00:56:32.349
So you don't know where your life's going to go depending on what choices you make.

00:56:32.570 --> 00:56:44.829
I think that's where things like the thought of fate and destiny actually can be quite comforting because rather than looking back at your life and thinking what could have been or should have done this and should have done this, in a way sometimes it is a little bit comforting to think...

00:56:45.442 --> 00:57:04.592
everything happens for a reason and everything happens so i could be sat in this chair right now like not to sit in this chair right now but i'm exactly where i'm supposed to be right now i think that's the only way really to find comfort in everything that we go through from you know trauma to the best experiences of our lives you know it all

00:57:05.505 --> 00:57:10.853
I think what's nice now, I've got to spread with a good conscience, a clear mind, not feeling guilty.

00:57:11.755 --> 00:57:16.123
I know you always struggle around the time of June and obviously June 16th in particular.

00:57:16.322 --> 00:57:24.175
I mean, I've had loads of counselling around Matthew, the thing that happened with Matthew, and it has helped, but it hasn't changed it.

00:57:25.217 --> 00:57:25.418
No.

00:57:25.438 --> 00:57:28.081
The pain still resides within me.

00:57:29.284 --> 00:57:33.309
My kids know when I'm struggling because the first text I'll send them is, I love you.

00:57:33.889 --> 00:57:39.159
And then they'll all congregate together and go, what's up with my dad?

00:57:39.239 --> 00:57:40.420
It's not that I don't send them.

00:57:40.541 --> 00:57:41.842
I love you.

00:57:43.005 --> 00:57:43.947
I know.

00:57:44.106 --> 00:57:46.831
You're obviously thinking something to prompt yourself.

00:57:46.851 --> 00:57:48.695
Well, I'm quite an emotional person now.

00:57:48.735 --> 00:57:50.338
I've learned to manage how I feel.

00:57:50.858 --> 00:57:53.623
Whereas before, like most men, we're men, aren't we?

00:57:53.722 --> 00:57:55.206
We're not meant to feel this.

00:57:55.326 --> 00:57:56.146
Feel emotional.

00:57:56.568 --> 00:57:57.429
Share emotion.

00:57:57.489 --> 00:57:58.251
Share emotion.

00:57:58.311 --> 00:57:59.914
You know, probably one of the hardest things.

00:58:00.226 --> 00:58:03.190
I love it, and it makes me cry, and I love watching it.

00:58:03.612 --> 00:58:05.416
It's a bit of a sucker for punishment.

00:58:06.938 --> 00:58:09.422
Like, Britain's Got Talent, America's Got Talent kids.

00:58:10.324 --> 00:58:11.726
Seeing them get the Golden Buzzer.

00:58:12.568 --> 00:58:15.994
I love seeing it, but it then reinforces the loss that I felt.

00:58:16.235 --> 00:58:19.320
My son never got that opportunity, never got that choice.

00:58:20.001 --> 00:58:23.007
But seeing it is absolutely amazing as well.

00:58:23.568 --> 00:58:23.768
So...

00:58:24.353 --> 00:58:27.858
Even still, I think there'll always be a lot of different mix of emotions.

00:58:27.998 --> 00:58:29.402
Because you're always going to wonder what

00:58:29.521 --> 00:58:33.788
could have been, what could Matty have grown up to be, what job would he be doing?

00:58:33.827 --> 00:58:36.992
Them thoughts, I think it'd be only natural to think those.

00:58:37.233 --> 00:58:38.795
I think I probably know how we would have been

00:58:39.016 --> 00:58:39.315
today.

00:58:39.416 --> 00:58:47.068
Because if he had a little bit of Katie in him, and a little bit of Adam, and a little bit of Paddy, and a little bit of Danielle, he'd be the most amazing person in the world.

00:58:47.829 --> 00:58:48.170
That's nice.

00:58:48.269 --> 00:58:50.713
Because he's got a little bit of all of them, you know.

00:58:51.489 --> 00:58:53.034
That's how I like to look at it now.

00:58:53.135 --> 00:58:54.659
I like to look at it in the positive.

00:58:54.719 --> 00:58:58.190
It was the first year, actually, that I hadn't needed any counselling around his death.

00:58:59.112 --> 00:59:02.222
As you know, I had a bit of a life experience in January.

00:59:02.342 --> 00:59:04.007
I've run a stroke myself and I think...

00:59:04.865 --> 00:59:14.614
having that stroke has led me to live more in the area now and to not live back in what was and what's been and gone and the things that I can't change.

00:59:15.114 --> 00:59:17.297
So I think that certainly helped this year.

00:59:17.396 --> 00:59:27.264
And like I said, me and my partner and Katie, we all went to the river and put some flowers there and we stayed there for an hour and we had a reminisce and it was really, really nice.

00:59:27.346 --> 00:59:30.047
It wasn't sad, we didn't cry, we weren't upset.

00:59:31.128 --> 00:59:39.463
So I think having that little bit of a scare certainly helped me look that stuff with a little bit of a different perspective with that, without a shadow of a doubt.

00:59:39.682 --> 00:59:44.434
So just going back to like the detox and stuff, you know, I know Antonio was a big help for that and what you've gone through.

00:59:44.934 --> 00:59:49.385
Did you go, because obviously, did you go through like a...

00:59:49.730 --> 01:00:07.271
12-step approach to maintain sobriety as well.

01:00:07.452 --> 01:00:46.882
Sometimes I speak to people being on a 12-step program almost envious of how at peace and with everything how this this this support structure like just going back to the idea of men being men do you know i saw something recent say when when you're at your dinner for as a man when you're at your darkest place who do you call and i was like well nobody yeah you just suck it up and get on with it you might pass a comment to a friend here and there so i just struggle a little bit but for the most part you just suck it up but to have that support network and i think obviously more of a support network is needed for someone with, you know, that addiction and that all or nothing mentality and how, you know, living every day as it comes, each day as it comes, one by one.

01:00:48.043 --> 01:00:50.525
How do you maintain sobriety then now?

01:00:50.786 --> 01:00:57.273
Is it the sort of, because obviously from this entire conversation, family has been the biggest part of you, you know, what we spoke about here.

01:00:58.014 --> 01:01:05.280
Not to paraphrase as such, but would you say the family is that higher power that you've needed to maintain sobriety or...?

01:01:06.657 --> 01:01:07.800
I don't think it is, no.

01:01:07.820 --> 01:01:10.244
I think it's just an inner determination.

01:01:10.704 --> 01:01:16.974
Knowing that I was better than what I was doing to myself in the first place, I just didn't know how to escape it in the early times.

01:01:17.514 --> 01:01:20.719
Now, obviously the job that I do really helps.

01:01:20.960 --> 01:01:21.380
Yeah,

01:01:21.400 --> 01:01:23.143
because you see people at their worst, don't you?

01:01:23.164 --> 01:01:23.784
At their worst.

01:01:23.905 --> 01:01:25.206
I see them at their best.

01:01:25.226 --> 01:01:26.108
I see all stages.

01:01:26.509 --> 01:01:32.077
I see abscesses, blood clots, everything that I had, I see on a daily basis.

01:01:32.610 --> 01:01:39.463
Now, if you're seeing that daily and that doesn't reinforce them with you, then probably you don't be working what I'm doing.

01:01:40.485 --> 01:01:43.451
You know, I'm a needle exchange worker, as you well know.

01:01:43.710 --> 01:01:47.077
And I mean, the needles aren't used to that long.

01:01:47.329 --> 01:01:51.516
And people go to me, how can you do a needle exchange now when you're used to injecting?

01:01:51.697 --> 01:01:55.342
I just said to them, look, I've trained my brain to think differently right now.

01:01:55.362 --> 01:01:56.623
So it's not like a trigger for you.

01:01:56.643 --> 01:01:57.625
So it's not like a trigger.

01:01:57.706 --> 01:02:06.778
So I'll get a needle out and I'm doing a thing here and I'll open it and I go to them, you know, back in the day, I looked at that and looked at it and went, yeah, you what?

01:02:06.858 --> 01:02:10.405
Now I look at it and I think, did I really do that?

01:02:10.704 --> 01:02:11.666
Was I really pushed?

01:02:12.347 --> 01:02:13.509
The reality is, yeah, I was.

01:02:14.451 --> 01:02:16.253
And that, again, is one of them things.

01:02:17.090 --> 01:02:20.175
That helps me stop forgetting where I came from.

01:02:20.376 --> 01:02:32.717
Really sad this weekend, one of my onlookers, dad, in the 15 years I've been in recovery, I've seen way too many of my old friends die.

01:02:33.739 --> 01:02:34.822
Way, way too many.

01:02:37.106 --> 01:02:39.550
From a lack of understanding, it does happen to you.

01:02:40.034 --> 01:02:41.998
Like most academics, it doesn't happen to me.

01:02:42.277 --> 01:02:44.041
It'll happen to them, but it doesn't happen to me.

01:02:44.061 --> 01:02:46.626
So you're saying about dependency, what happened to me, I'll be fine.

01:02:46.686 --> 01:02:49.753
Yeah, if you've never been over in your life, you ain't going to go over, are you?

01:02:49.773 --> 01:02:51.896
It's not one of them things that'll happen to you, is it?

01:02:52.579 --> 01:02:56.465
But I've seen addiction destroy families.

01:02:57.829 --> 01:03:02.398
Another couple of my mates, partners, both dead, really young.

01:03:02.690 --> 01:03:07.255
Left four kids behind, all under fucking 15, three of them under 10 at that point.

01:03:08.157 --> 01:03:12.663
My recovery sometimes is dedicated to the people who's that, to the people that I know.

01:03:13.585 --> 01:03:20.193
You know, because they'll all be looking down, a bit like me, someone else will be at me, patting me on the back, going, Dad, keep it up, I'm proud of you.

01:03:20.213 --> 01:03:22.356
I try and instill that with the people that I work with.

01:03:22.916 --> 01:03:24.259
There's no judgment from me.

01:03:24.478 --> 01:03:27.322
I'm not better than anybody because I've learned to live my life differently.

01:03:27.523 --> 01:03:29.286
I've just learned to live my life differently.

01:03:29.947 --> 01:03:32.349
He does sit there waiting for his opportunity.

01:03:32.545 --> 01:03:36.632
So a lot of recovery is understanding, isn't it, I think.

01:03:37.231 --> 01:03:41.077
You know, out of the blue, I'll get a bath, because I've got no veins.

01:03:41.157 --> 01:03:48.668
If I get a bath, a vein comes up in my calf there, and if my eye sees out the corner and my subconscious mind goes to me, oh, it'd be nice.

01:03:49.909 --> 01:03:53.393
So I know a million percent he's sat there waiting for his opportunity, isn't he?

01:03:53.835 --> 01:03:54.835
I've learnt to manage him.

01:03:56.257 --> 01:03:59.262
So when that happened in the first go, that'd been there all day.

01:03:59.650 --> 01:04:04.655
It wouldn't be in there for like 30 seconds or a minute or whatever it is now because now it's in, not wanting it.

01:04:04.775 --> 01:04:05.456
It's straight out.

01:04:06.036 --> 01:04:09.541
But again, that's them skills that you learn in recovery, isn't it?

01:04:09.561 --> 01:04:11.563
I've learned to manage urges and cravings.

01:04:11.684 --> 01:04:14.286
I've learned to manage my own shame, you know.

01:04:14.327 --> 01:04:15.929
That is my own stuff.

01:04:17.510 --> 01:04:18.811
I love the job that I do.

01:04:18.891 --> 01:04:24.438
I love being empowered by every form of recovery, be it 12-step, be it therapeutic.

01:04:24.458 --> 01:04:25.920
However you got there, you got there.

01:04:26.880 --> 01:04:27.581
Praise you all.

01:04:27.777 --> 01:04:32.864
I'm a big believer of everybody is the same.

01:04:33.585 --> 01:04:37.251
Nobody's better than nobody because of the choices that people are making.

01:04:38.072 --> 01:04:42.237
I don't know somebody else's life and why they are in the position they're in.

01:04:42.757 --> 01:04:51.670
For me, I feel the reason I ended up where I ended up is I was too big-headed, too naive, too I'm better than this.

01:04:52.034 --> 01:05:21.271
you know when in reality what a mad way to look at it because I want and anybody can end up where I ended up trust me nobody intentionally ends up being an heroin addict or a crackhead or an alcoholic or you know I think sometimes people out there think people have these life achievements I want to be an heroin addict it sounds like it would be fucking great doesn't it it was never really like that for me recovery has always been something that's been self empowered from within me.

01:05:21.811 --> 01:05:23.574
There's only me who can keep me clean.

01:05:24.315 --> 01:05:25.396
No one else can do that.

01:05:25.436 --> 01:05:34.086
There's only me who can deal with the thoughts, the shame that I feel sometimes, the guilt that I feel, the pain that I caused my parents, the pain that I caused my children.

01:05:34.746 --> 01:05:36.389
You know, that's my parents to bear.

01:05:36.769 --> 01:05:38.371
That's part of living in recovery.

01:05:38.431 --> 01:05:40.655
You have to live with them choices that you made.

01:05:41.356 --> 01:05:42.958
Nobody else can do that for you.

01:05:43.557 --> 01:05:49.485
And once you can put that in a place that it's all right with you, then...

01:05:50.242 --> 01:05:51.585
That's absolutely fine.

01:05:51.626 --> 01:05:56.157
But for me, the only thing that gets you today is walking the walk.

01:05:56.778 --> 01:05:58.101
We've all heard it for long enough.

01:05:58.342 --> 01:06:00.067
My mum and dad heard it for fucking years.

01:06:00.588 --> 01:06:01.771
You know, yeah, I'm doing great.

01:06:02.092 --> 01:06:04.197
Ten minutes later, my voice changes.

01:06:05.000 --> 01:06:06.643
You know, so...

01:06:07.650 --> 01:06:12.277
I mean, for the first three years, my dad didn't believe I had that care at my house, which was totally understandable.

01:06:12.318 --> 01:06:13.340
Can you lend me 20 quid?

01:06:13.420 --> 01:06:14.561
I need some gas and electric.

01:06:14.862 --> 01:06:15.664
I want the receipts.

01:06:16.204 --> 01:06:17.728
I'm 18 months clean at this point.

01:06:17.768 --> 01:06:20.072
What do you mean you want the receipts?

01:06:20.172 --> 01:06:22.456
But I 100% respect where he was coming from.

01:06:22.916 --> 01:06:25.822
You know, trust and stuff like that has to be...

01:06:25.882 --> 01:06:26.322
It's got to be earned.

01:06:26.483 --> 01:06:27.324
It's got to be earned.

01:06:27.846 --> 01:06:28.527
You respect.

01:06:28.728 --> 01:06:29.909
You've got to earn that back.

01:06:30.391 --> 01:06:32.134
You know, I know how people see me now.

01:06:32.418 --> 01:06:35.682
I've been shouting recovery is great for 15 years.

01:06:36.262 --> 01:06:38.806
What couldn't I look like if I went back to where I came from?

01:06:39.447 --> 01:06:40.289
You know what I mean?

01:06:40.329 --> 01:06:43.273
So again, it is about having good things in your life.

01:06:43.452 --> 01:06:45.817
Why would I want to throw away what I've got?

01:06:45.836 --> 01:06:47.759
I'm the most luckiest person in the world.

01:06:48.019 --> 01:06:49.322
I've got a fabulous family.

01:06:49.661 --> 01:06:52.065
I've got a great team of people who I work around.

01:06:52.505 --> 01:06:55.009
People care about me just for the sake of caring about me.

01:06:55.030 --> 01:06:57.373
There's no incentive there.

01:06:59.215 --> 01:07:00.998
That's what recovery is about for me.

01:07:01.217 --> 01:07:13.615
do you see people obviously you do the needle exchange you see people every day what is the one bit of advice that you like to give or want to give to people who ever listen to this or people you see in the new exchange About recovery.

01:07:13.815 --> 01:07:14.737
Believe in yourself.

01:07:15.398 --> 01:07:17.161
Only one person's going to change this.

01:07:17.842 --> 01:07:23.909
Yes, people will be around to support that, but when it comes down to it, there's only one person who can do it, and it's yourself.

01:07:24.490 --> 01:07:29.637
You've got to find that belief, that drive, that understanding, learning about yourself again.

01:07:30.679 --> 01:07:35.806
I'm a totally different person after 37 than I was between the first 37 years of my life.

01:07:36.668 --> 01:07:37.248
I was a cock.

01:07:37.568 --> 01:07:39.190
That's the bottom line.

01:07:39.652 --> 01:07:41.074
Since then, I've become...

01:07:41.985 --> 01:07:45.989
Well, I think I've always been a caring person and an emotional person, you know.

01:07:46.510 --> 01:07:52.054
Not many people at 23, back in 1993, was bringing their kids up on their own as a single parent.

01:07:52.534 --> 01:07:58.860
I think I was the first male, definitely, on my estate where I lived, who was bringing up my children on my own, you know.

01:08:00.161 --> 01:08:00.922
I was a good dad.

01:08:01.382 --> 01:08:06.286
I always have been a good dad, but I was very good at making bad choices within that as well, you know.

01:08:06.927 --> 01:08:08.068
My kids had trouble.

01:08:08.268 --> 01:08:09.510
What would my kids say about me?

01:08:09.550 --> 01:08:14.956
I think they would say we we're really proud of my dad and what he's done.

01:08:15.858 --> 01:08:17.001
But they know the real me.

01:08:17.261 --> 01:08:20.226
Like I said, if I send them a love you, they always know that.

01:08:20.707 --> 01:08:24.675
I've watched them and that's upset me or it's got me a little bit emotional.

01:08:26.176 --> 01:08:27.619
And I see them all the time.

01:08:27.680 --> 01:08:29.523
Yeah, I'm lucky, aren't I?

01:08:29.783 --> 01:08:31.166
I'm a one percenter.

01:08:31.394 --> 01:08:32.395
There's not many of

01:08:32.416 --> 01:08:32.496
us.

01:08:32.515 --> 01:08:33.497
Not many who get to do it, yeah.

01:08:33.617 --> 01:08:33.938
You know.

01:08:34.257 --> 01:08:37.363
So obviously we've got the recovery walk up this year, September 23rd.

01:08:37.904 --> 01:08:42.631
First time it's come to halt as someone who's been in recovery as yourself for, do you know, 15 years in the way that you have.

01:08:43.592 --> 01:08:46.417
Any comments on the recovery walk that's come to halt?

01:08:46.438 --> 01:08:46.978
First instinct was,

01:08:47.099 --> 01:08:47.939
I'm not going on that.

01:08:48.100 --> 01:08:48.400
Really?

01:08:48.560 --> 01:08:48.701
Yeah.

01:08:48.961 --> 01:08:49.202
Why?

01:08:49.462 --> 01:08:50.182
Shame kicks in.

01:08:50.663 --> 01:08:51.244
Ah, interesting.

01:08:51.865 --> 01:08:52.546
Okay.

01:08:52.606 --> 01:08:55.712
I don't want people looking at me like I'm some junkie.

01:08:56.113 --> 01:08:56.233
Yeah.

01:08:57.134 --> 01:08:59.417
But then obviously the other part of me kicks in.

01:09:00.225 --> 01:09:01.387
No, be proud of what you've done.

01:09:01.747 --> 01:09:02.849
You're empowering people.

01:09:03.390 --> 01:09:05.412
You're supporting people like yourself.

01:09:06.253 --> 01:09:08.997
So, yeah, the first instinct was I'm not going.

01:09:09.016 --> 01:09:09.438
That's interesting.

01:09:09.597 --> 01:09:11.881
I'm not bringing that shame on, you know.

01:09:12.421 --> 01:09:16.266
But I've looked at it, I've worked it, I've put it in my mind.

01:09:16.306 --> 01:09:18.208
It's the first one I'm going to be going to, actually.

01:09:18.229 --> 01:09:18.550
Oh, is it?

01:09:20.091 --> 01:09:25.078
Because that's what I felt the first time that I was invited to go to Liverpool and do that.

01:09:25.137 --> 01:09:26.579
Yeah, yeah.

01:09:26.600 --> 01:09:27.600
I'm the only person...

01:09:28.673 --> 01:09:31.319
Out of my circle of friends, I was clean.

01:09:33.143 --> 01:09:34.426
And I had a big circle of friends.

01:09:35.247 --> 01:09:36.390
I've lost a lot of them friends.

01:09:37.112 --> 01:09:41.039
But I'm the only person who was clean out of that circle of friends.

01:09:41.079 --> 01:09:41.780
That tells you.

01:09:43.105 --> 01:10:04.625
summit about 1% of and they don't come very often and when they do come we've got to make the most of them we've got to help you know I love empowering people into change I hope that everybody I meet I touch with a little bit of summit that makes their life a little bit easier you know I'm not looking for the big let's get clean and

01:10:05.505 --> 01:10:09.948
let's do the song and dance you can be someone else's Antonio that's the one thing

01:10:09.969 --> 01:10:15.494
you've got to remember yeah that's brilliant yeah exactly And I think, yeah, you've written a nail on the head, haven't you?

01:10:16.636 --> 01:10:17.837
I am that Antonio.

01:10:17.856 --> 01:10:18.077
You are.

01:10:18.478 --> 01:10:23.603
That compassionate, caring, no-judgment person.

01:10:24.423 --> 01:10:26.666
And I think that's why people enjoy working with

01:10:26.685 --> 01:10:26.725
me.

01:10:26.787 --> 01:10:30.369
I think that's why people resonate with you and with everything that you do as well so much.

01:10:30.409 --> 01:10:33.153
But, no, John, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

01:10:33.193 --> 01:10:38.578
I've got a series of questions that I ask every one of our guests just to end the podcast on a light-hearted note.

01:10:38.599 --> 01:10:40.480
And my first question is, what is your favourite word?

01:10:43.329 --> 01:10:43.650
Man.

01:10:44.492 --> 01:10:44.572
Nice.

01:10:45.134 --> 01:10:45.814
Least favourite word?

01:10:45.835 --> 01:10:45.895
I'm

01:10:47.137 --> 01:10:47.939
not going to say that.

01:10:49.001 --> 01:10:49.242
Cunt.

01:10:50.042 --> 01:10:50.784
No, smackhead.

01:10:51.286 --> 01:10:52.186
Yes, okay, yeah.

01:10:52.368 --> 01:10:57.878
Any derogative term, something, head, crackhead, baghead, smackhead, elkhead, whatever, yeah.

01:10:58.399 --> 01:10:58.980
Favourite sound?

01:11:00.604 --> 01:11:01.565
I love music.

01:11:01.953 --> 01:11:02.795
Anything in particular?

01:11:03.697 --> 01:11:05.019
Anything, really.

01:11:05.720 --> 01:11:10.347
I got a bit of pelvis recently, but generally any music.

01:11:10.368 --> 01:11:11.168
I love music.

01:11:11.710 --> 01:11:12.430
Least favourite sound?

01:11:14.194 --> 01:11:14.935
Purvis crying.

01:11:16.658 --> 01:11:17.238
Understandable.

01:11:19.502 --> 01:11:20.384
Favourite curse word?

01:11:27.649 --> 01:11:28.270
You cock.

01:11:28.591 --> 01:11:29.171
You're cocking.

01:11:29.471 --> 01:11:30.953
Yeah, I love saying that on the graph.

01:11:30.974 --> 01:11:31.253
You're a cock.

01:11:31.475 --> 01:11:31.895
You're a cock.

01:11:31.914 --> 01:11:32.095
Someone's

01:11:32.114 --> 01:11:32.836
a cock, yeah.

01:11:33.938 --> 01:11:35.760
Oh, Rob, you're going to have to tell me out here.

01:11:36.841 --> 01:11:37.041
Profession.

01:11:37.060 --> 01:11:37.862
Yeah, I've got profession.

01:11:37.881 --> 01:11:38.662
I was going to work for that.

01:11:38.844 --> 01:11:43.208
If you wasn't doing the profession that you was doing, if you wasn't working as a harm reduction worker, what else would you be doing?

01:11:44.130 --> 01:11:46.192
Do you know what?

01:11:46.613 --> 01:11:53.060
When Matthew died, I was actually working on boats on the ocean, like I said, and we was working with divers that day.

01:11:53.761 --> 01:11:55.323
I'd have loved to have been a diver, I think.

01:11:55.524 --> 01:11:55.783
Nice.

01:11:55.944 --> 01:11:56.123
Yeah.

01:11:56.545 --> 01:11:57.405
What's your...

01:11:58.113 --> 01:11:59.042
Worst job.

01:11:59.297 --> 01:12:00.599
that you could ever imagine doing?

01:12:01.300 --> 01:12:03.981
Oh, I've had the worst job you can ever imagine doing.

01:12:04.042 --> 01:12:06.564
That was putting peanuts on a cake for fucking 12 hours.

01:12:06.783 --> 01:12:08.126
Peanuts on a cake?

01:12:08.145 --> 01:12:09.127
Peanuts on a cake.

01:12:09.146 --> 01:12:10.488
Hey, Scott, you've got to tell me that one before we go.

01:12:10.507 --> 01:12:15.631
At that cake factory, you know, where they come round and they put it on a conveyor belt and you just put a peanut on top of each cake.

01:12:15.931 --> 01:12:16.372
Is that it?

01:12:16.393 --> 01:12:17.153
A walnut whip.

01:12:17.654 --> 01:12:18.253
Oh, nice.

01:12:18.954 --> 01:12:19.135
Yeah.

01:12:19.636 --> 01:12:20.837
For how long, like, eight hours a day?

01:12:20.877 --> 01:12:21.676
12 hours it was.

01:12:22.377 --> 01:12:24.199
Fucking 12 hours of hell.

01:12:24.220 --> 01:12:25.541
Putting a peanut on a cake.

01:12:25.600 --> 01:12:28.724
Yeah, I've never done 12 hours rattling, Matt.

01:12:28.743 --> 01:12:28.904
Yeah, I

01:12:28.923 --> 01:12:29.264
couldn't wait.

01:12:29.264 --> 01:12:35.069
Tell me something that excites you.

01:12:38.512 --> 01:12:38.893
Family.

01:12:40.134 --> 01:12:40.875
Life.

01:12:42.376 --> 01:12:43.436
Something that doesn't excite you.

01:12:43.978 --> 01:12:44.358
Dying.

01:12:45.498 --> 01:12:54.988
And then lastly, on the topic of dying actually, what would you like to hear God say when you arrive at the pearly gates?

01:12:55.268 --> 01:12:56.009
If heaven exists.

01:12:56.328 --> 01:12:57.149
Oh, do you know what?

01:12:57.345 --> 01:13:02.734
One of my friends, a couple of years ago, I worked with Dad, and I went to his funeral.

01:13:03.095 --> 01:13:07.421
Now, if my funeral was anything like his, I'd be the most happiest person in the world.

01:13:08.023 --> 01:13:13.931
It was standing room only, and he had the same background as me, and he'd built the same life I'd built.

01:13:15.094 --> 01:13:18.878
So sometimes you do think, don't you, I wonder what my funeral will be like.

01:13:19.140 --> 01:13:20.662
I wonder what people will say about me.

01:13:21.042 --> 01:13:23.426
I wonder if it'll be the positives or the negatives.

01:13:24.006 --> 01:13:25.569
So I think for me, what...

01:13:27.137 --> 01:13:31.003
I'd love to be able to look in on my funeral and just see who comes.

01:13:31.083 --> 01:13:41.060
I mean, I've had a lot of bereavements over the last couple of years, and I lost a really, really close friend to a brain aneurysm.

01:13:42.643 --> 01:13:46.409
And I went to his funeral, and he was one of the lads that I played rugby with as well.

01:13:46.990 --> 01:13:51.518
And when we was in our late teens, we had...

01:13:51.649 --> 01:13:56.856
As you can imagine, playing in a rugby team of 15 people, we had a big, big circle of friends.

01:13:58.219 --> 01:14:00.882
Not one person from our rugby team went to his funeral.

01:14:01.463 --> 01:14:06.872
Not even one of the mates who we all grew up with, except for me and his brother, was at his funeral.

01:14:07.252 --> 01:14:14.141
For me, I don't want my funeral to be like that, if I'm honest.

01:14:14.850 --> 01:14:22.220
I would like to think I've built up enough respect that even people who maybe I've not seen for a long time would end up coming to my funeral.

01:14:22.440 --> 01:14:26.006
So if not God, then what would you like to hear somebody say at your funeral about you?

01:14:26.027 --> 01:14:28.871
About you and the life that you lived?

01:14:33.417 --> 01:14:34.779
Oh, it's a hard one, isn't it?

01:14:34.920 --> 01:14:36.082
I don't know, I just...

01:14:37.569 --> 01:14:41.033
You know, when you've lived in that no good, that no good stick of your own.

01:14:41.054 --> 01:14:41.134
It's

01:14:41.154 --> 01:14:41.595
hard to find

01:14:42.076 --> 01:14:42.936
something positive.

01:14:42.997 --> 01:14:46.740
It's not that it's hard to find something positive, what I'd want somebody to say.

01:14:46.822 --> 01:14:51.367
I'd probably just want them to, a bit like me, just to speak from their heart today.

01:14:51.487 --> 01:14:56.474
You know, that I was a caring and thoughtful and understanding person.

01:14:56.533 --> 01:15:03.002
And yeah, like all people, I think I just want people to see me as all right, because I am.

01:15:03.713 --> 01:15:06.079
Yeah, I've had his shows, but I'm all right.

01:15:06.180 --> 01:15:06.440
He was all

01:15:06.461 --> 01:15:06.782
right.

01:15:06.902 --> 01:15:07.743
Yeah, he was all right.

01:15:07.764 --> 01:15:09.689
He was a cock at times, but he was all right.

01:15:09.708 --> 01:15:10.130
But he was all

01:15:10.149 --> 01:15:11.011
right, yeah.

01:15:11.052 --> 01:15:12.496
No, John, thank you very much for your time.

01:15:12.555 --> 01:15:13.318
Thank you for coming on tonight.

01:15:13.337 --> 01:15:13.719
No worries, mate.

01:15:13.759 --> 01:15:14.341
Much appreciated.

01:15:14.360 --> 01:15:15.122
You've been wonderful.

01:15:15.182 --> 01:15:15.564
Thank you.

01:15:15.743 --> 01:15:21.118
And if you've enjoyed this episode of the Believe in People podcast, then please check out our other episodes and hit that subscribe button.

01:15:21.282 --> 01:15:28.229
You can also find clips, outtakes and extras from this series on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and YouTube at CGLHull.

01:15:28.630 --> 01:15:30.992
That's at C-G-L-H-U-L-L.

01:15:31.752 --> 01:15:35.096
We're on Apple Music, Spotify, Google and YouTube Music.

01:15:35.356 --> 01:15:38.100
So please like and subscribe to be notified about new episodes.

01:15:38.319 --> 01:15:41.583
You can also search for Believe in People podcast on your favourite listening device.

01:15:41.904 --> 01:15:47.010
And if you can leave us a review, that will really help us in getting our message out there and rising up the daily podcast charts.