Finley Worthington: Ketamine Addiction, Blood Jelly, Bladder Deterioration and the Ketamine Education Service

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This is a renewed original recording.

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Hello and welcome to Believe in People, a two-time Radio Academy Award nominated and British Podcast Award-winning series about all things addiction, recovery, and stigma.

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My name is Matthew Butler, and I'm your host, or as I like to say, your facilitator.

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Today I'm joined by Finley, who shares his lived experience of ketamine addiction and recovery.

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We explore why ketamine is often perceived as a cheap social party drug and how that perception can mask how quickly dependence develops and the serious physical and psychological harm it can cause.

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Finley reflects on his substance use, the illusion of control, and how ketamine shifted from feeling like a solution to becoming a source of severe withdrawal, physical damage and psychological distress.

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We also discussed the reality of ketamine bladder, the impacts of family and mental health, the stigma surrounding ketamine use, and what it ultimately took for him to stop.

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Highlighting the role of honesty, support and connection in recovery.

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The thing with ketamine is it's very sneaky, as I suppose a lot of substances are, and it almost reels you in, you know, and it gives you a very short, a very short-term buzz, if that's what you want to call it.

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I would have probably wouldn't call it a buzz because it's quite the opposite, but you get that little short-term feeling, you know, forget about your problems, forget about anything that's going on, and you know, you can trip out, you can have them sort of effects from it.

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And some people can go on for months, if not years, without seeing the consequences.

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So it gives you like a false sense of reality, really, that that it's safe to do, you know, and that it's it is a fun party drug, but the reality of it is we all know it couldn't be any further from the truth.

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What attracted you to to ketamine in the first place?

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Had you tried other substances?

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Because I know, like obviously, we in terms of your your lived experience recovery organisation, uh, the ketamine education service, there's a there's a big emphasis on ketamine.

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Was it the first substance that you chose?

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Did you use other substances but found this one to be more of a preference?

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What led you up to that point of of of ketamine addiction in a nutshell?

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Yeah, so so my first substance was cannabis, and then it led I had a problem with cannabis from being probably 15 till about 18, maybe.

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Then it was cocaine, cocaine came onto the scene, and I quickly became addicted to that.

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You know, I was kind of sniffing it on my own at 16, 17 year old in my bedroom at my mum's, none of my mates were doing it, but in my head I thought everyone was doing it, you know.

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I thought that was a normal thing to do.

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And then ketamine came on the scene when I was 18 year old, and it was really, really simple how I got kind of put onto it.

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I got a text message off a lad um who used to buy cocaine off, and he just texted me saying, I've got some ketamine, that that was it.

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Now I remember being with one of my mates, and I said, Oh, so I'm not gonna name him.

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So-and-so's got some ketamine, and it weren't even I remember it clear, there wasn't a conversation around what's the harms, what could it do, what's this, this, and this.

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It was just how much is it?

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I found out 30 pounds for a gram, get some, and that was it.

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Now, obviously, in Hardensat, if I'd have known what I know now, it'd have been a completely different conversation, you know.

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And that's obviously what we're trying to do now is to put the knowledge in place so that them decisions are based with a little bit of education, not just uh an off the cuff, yeah.

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Let's get some.

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Um it's quite worrying, really, to think because I know you can't you can't say ifs and buts, can you?

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But I often think if I'd have known or something would have been different, I could have saved all that period of of health and my life.

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But you know, I can't I haven't really got any regrets to be truthful about it because it's led me to where I am today, and I feel like my addiction's been the making of me.

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Sounds quite quite weird.

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No, it's not it's not the first time I've heard something like that.

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I think I think the thing that is interesting though is to talk about your use of cannabis, of course, and then ketamine.

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All of these substances kind of fall into that that recreational category before it often hits dependence.

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And and with recreational substance misuse, it's often down to the peer pressures we experienced.

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But you said then like none of your peers was using it, and I know you said you you thought they were.

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I guess kind of what brought you to use it in the first place, and if your friends wasn't using it.

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It's specific to get them in the world.

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Just substances in general, because I'd like to say, I think well, I remember the first time I started drinking with my mates, and that was the key thing, it was with my mates, it was like pushing the boundaries, it was it was that sort of again the the the the pushing the barriers that that teenagers do.

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And it it is often the same with with cannabis and and even cocaine, you know, for some people when they get a little bit older and when they start going out into pubs, clubs, and bars, it's quite accessible now.

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I know cocaine, weirdly enough, used to feel quite a taboo subject back then.

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Now I think people almost brag about taking it.

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It's weird how that culture has changed, but yeah, I guess the the interesting thing for me there is that none of your friends was using these substances, but you were still using them alone.

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So I think with with the cannabis, there was a there was a small group of us uh who used it pretty much every day, and we became reliant on it very quickly, but we weren't aware, you know, it was 15, 16, it's quite hard to just be factual about the age, but we're looking at that sort of age, and and I look back and none of us understood addiction.

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You know, I've got family members in addiction, close family members who are in recovery, so it was around me, but I still didn't understand what it were.

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And so we became addicted to the cannabis, and the lads I'm talking about still smoke it today.

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I stopped the cannabis at probably again 17-18, but cocaine came in, and it's interesting because I look back and and even before substances, really, I've always had an addictive personality.

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Oh, that's interesting, yeah.

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Okay, so if I've done something that I've enjoyed, I'll do it and do it and do it and do it, you know, and I'll exhaust it.

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And that's kind of been a pattern.

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It could be anything, it's might sound silly, but even drinks or sweets to this day.

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If I like something, my girlfriend will vouch for this, I'll buy it and buy it, you know, and then I'll get bored of it and then I'll move on.

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And it is quite interesting.

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That's the nature of addiction in some way, isn't it?

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I I the previous participant actually shared a story of he said, I've always been an addict.

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He said the drugs were secondary, and it was something along the lines of when I was a kid, it was computer games, obsessed with them, you know, all day, every day.

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And then as I got a little bit older, it was girls, and then it was it was alcohol and it was cocaine.

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And he said, like, I've always been an addict, and I think that's quite interesting to say that to the nature of addiction.

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And it goes back to that idea of addiction being a disease.

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You mentioned yourself with having family, close family members that have you know struggled with addiction as well.

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What's your opinion on that, I guess, really?

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Because some people believe that addiction can be hereditary or something they inherit from family and that it is a disease.

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Where's your mind when it comes to that statement?

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So the biggest thing for me is I'd I don't personally, you know, and this isn't me saying it's right or wrong, or telling everybody.

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This is it's all opinion, yeah.

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I completely understand that, yeah.

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I don't agree with calling it a disease.

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Okay, yeah.

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Uh you know, I'd never argue, I'd never tell somebody you can't call it a disease, but for me That's and that's the right approach to it, isn't it?

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Yeah, I I don't label it as a disease.

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I think when you think of diseases, you think or you're riddled with a disease and you think really negative, and it's you're thinking of cures and tablets and treatments, you know.

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And I think I I'm not a scientist, I can't sit and say it is a disease or it isn't, but for me, I never label it a disease, you know.

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However, when you look at the hereditary side of it, there is a possibility, you know, and the reason I say that my dad's a recovering alcoholic and drug addict, my uncle was a heroin addict.

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Don't really know far past that.

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Of course, yeah, yeah.

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So it kind of you think, well, you know, it makes sense, doesn't it, that it is hereditary, and that a lot of people you speak to, you'll have you'll have had it yourself that you you know you have conversations and they'll say, Oh yeah, my dad's in recovery, my mum's in recovery, or a lot of people's parents die in addiction.

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Um so there's definitely a factor, but I think for me I sway more towards kind of the issues that come along with addictions.

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So I think if you look at a family and you look at say the mum and dad that are in addiction and you've got a young child, that them parents, no matter how much they love the children, you know, and and I've found that out myself, you know, I never thought my dad loved me because of his actions.

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I'm very lucky that really I went through addiction because I understand he always loved me, but he just couldn't show it and couldn't, you know, due to his addiction.

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But if you get a parent or two parents or whatever that are in addiction, it's pretty much impossible for them to give that child what they need, you know, the the attention, the love, the patience, the all the stuff that you need as a child to to flourish, I suppose.

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I learned it in rehab, and they kind of the way they broke it down was as a fl as a flower, you know, from a seed.

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And if it doesn't get the right nutrients, the right water will grow and it'll be lobsided and all that sort of stuff.

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And it's that, you know, we're a seed and we need we need the right nutrients, love, affection, care, and all that sort of stuff.

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And I think if a family's in addiction, more so parents, brothers and sisters, the child ain't getting that, so then you grow up and you can have negative views on yourself.

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I'm not loved, I'm not heard, you know, and all these sort of things.

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Basic needs aren't being met, are they?

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Yeah, that's it.

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You become a product of your environment.

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It's interesting you say that because I I've heard that from I guess a theoretical point of view or an educational point of view when I've done training.

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But it's interesting to talk to someone with with you know lived experience of an addiction to recognise that themselves as well, despite having family who are addicts as well, understanding that actually you've you've grown up in an environment where those basic needs weren't being met, and that's more likely to conclude in an addiction as opposed to being an environment where you that those needs are being met as well.

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Yeah, no, it's yeah, 100%.

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But again, I still do think hereditary plays into it to some extent.

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I don't know how, I don't know how all that looks.

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Well I felt yeah, I mean I've I've listened and read things before, and I don't think anyone's ever been able to provide concrete evidence of it.

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And and I guess that's anything.

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That's that's why the that's why we use the world the word theory, isn't it?

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Do you know, even the big bang theory, everyone kind of talks about that as being a scientific absolute, but at the end of the day, it's only a theory, do you know?

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It it's just the way it is.

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I just want to go back to to obviously talking about the the ketamine addiction as well, because you've done press for this, and uh part of the reason how we found you and wanted you to come and talk to us is as well.

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And you've said that ketamine or you describe ketamine as offering an escape before it took everything.

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What is it about ketamine that makes it feel like a solution right up until it becomes the problem?

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Yeah, so I think this is where you can look at addiction in general, and I think anybody can can identify with what I'm about to say if it makes sense to them.

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So early on, ketamine was a solution to me.

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You know, I didn't know I needed a solution, but I found ketamine and it gave me this solution to a problem I didn't really understand.

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Now, obviously, you take it and this solution works for a period of time like any substance does.

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Somewhere along the line, the ketamine becomes part of the problem, and the scary thing is you don't see it happen, you know, and it's almost blending in in the background, and it's a solution, a solution, and it starts drifting into part of the problem.

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And before you know it, the thing that was a solution is part of the problem, and now you've just got a big ball of problems, and it's like, how did I get here?

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So it's quite you know, that's that's a scary thing because there's no warnings, it's not like somebody comes and tells you that this is going to be you know become an issue.

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Um you just it's almost like you blink and you're in the you're in the midst of the madness of the the nev the negative effects of it.

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But to go back to your question, it's sort of I think for me, and it and you could argue about what we've just talked about, not getting what I needed, you know, it's it's a funny one.

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I've got a really good family, but and I almost sometimes feel guilty talking about this because my family they're amazing, and I know they love me to bits, and I love them to bits, but when you go back a few years, it's quite dysfunctional, you know, there was alcohol, mental health, all kinds of stuff going on that most people have to deal with.

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You know, I'm not sitting here playing victim or anything like that, I'm just explaining.

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And I and I do believe I grew up with certain views on myself, on the world, I was quite angry.

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And I found something in weed, I found something in cocaine, but I took ketamine and it was like weed cocaine put together times about ten.

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The escape level was Yeah, I was gonna last for one ketamine and not the other two, but yeah, yeah, that's interesting, yeah.

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Now you've got the the the thing that makes it quite I'm not gonna say what feels like it makes it a good drug at the start, you can eat off it, you can sleep off it, you don't get rough off it, you can get up and go to work off it.

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You look at cocaine, you know, anyone that's took cocaine will tell you you have a couple of lines and you need more, you're not going to sleep till you've exhausted every every option, and then you're not going to work because your head's battered, you're on a bad come down weed, same again, just knocks you out and you wake up groggy, you know, and and and I found ketamine and it was like, wow, you don't do any of this.

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And and I actually remember speaking to someone and calling it like a winning lottery ticket.

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That's what I called it back then, because I could do all them things on it, but when I took it, everything disappeared, you know.

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So again, I I've struggled with mental health, I've struggled with with bits of anxiety and depression, and you know, little spells of it.

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And I was in a job I didn't like, you know, bits of my family relationships were a little bit unstable.

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And then you've got the stuff externally, as a young lad growing up, a teenager, you're in competition with everyone to have the best clothes and most money and holidays and jobs and girls and all this stuff that comes with it, and it was overwhelming.

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And I took it, and none of that stuff mattered.

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You know, it was like it was just me and this bag of care tripping, and it was good.

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It were, you know, and I will very quickly flip it round and say, because I don't like to to glamorise it or make it sound like if you take care that's what's going to happen, because the chances of that lasting are very, very slim.

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And as good as it were, it were ten times worse, you know, once once I'd carried on taking it.

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But yeah, that that's kind of it.

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It gave me something, it gave me peace.

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It quieted my brain down and it gave me peace.

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But I paid a massive, massive price for six-month peace.

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It's a lifetime's worth of consequences.

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So when you look at it like on a bit of a scale, it's like it weren't worth it.

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We we explore opiate withdrawal and alcohol withdrawal in this area to some length.

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Does Ketman come with any withdrawal when you're not experiencing it?

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Or was that part of the winning lottery ticket feeling that it you didn't experience withdrawal either?

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No, so it's quite a grey area, this and there's a lot of conversations being had.

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So originally, when you're obviously first taking it, if you you can stop taking it, you might have a few sweats at now, but it's nothing, you know, it's not nothing like um a rattle.

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You know, I've seen people in rehabs have been in rattling, it's nothing like that.

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The worst one I had were a few bad dreams, if I ever had a few days off, you know, which were very rare.

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Long term, and and again, this is the grey area part.

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Now, there's an argument because as your tolerance builds up and the pain starts to kick in, you quickly find out when it's no secret that the only thing that will help is more ketamine.

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You know, I tried it where I took packets of painkillers, hot water balls, hot red hot baths, showers, tried everything, and some of it had worked for a minute, you know, while you're in the hot bath till it settled, then it then it's kind of back.

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And and I quickly found out if I doubled up the line that'd take the pain for a period of time.

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So you could argue realistically that so so for example, so I've built the tolerance up to the point now where I'm taking it as a painkiller, and I'm going into rehab the day after, for example, and I know that that painkiller's not there.

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I can take all these painkillers, but they're not gonna work.

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So you could argue that there is kind of a physical dependency on it for the pain relief side of things, but again, there's nothing in concrete to say that that is that's what it is, or that's just opinion.

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So it is a conversation that that people are having at the minute.

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Does that get classed as it or um but in terms of becoming ill in you know the shakes and rattling and and being sick and all that stuff, it doesn't no, I never expect it.

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It can come in different words as well, K, I suppose.

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I I guess going back to what you're saying about you know how how the addiction to Ketamin can creep up quietly, from what you've seen and lived, how fast can ketamine you spiral?

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I think why why do people not realise that they've lost control until the control itself has already gone?

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Yeah, it ties back into what I spoke about a couple of minutes ago with the substance being the solution to start off with, and you're so wrapped up in enjoying this peace and quiet, this this this time where you finish work, you know, because I'm still working early on in my recovery.

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I've been to work and I've had a bad day, you know, and go home and I get my cat and it's kind of it's like a little uh a ritual where I'm looking at it and I just know my problems disappear.

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And you're almost you're in love with it.

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It's like a love love-ate relationship.

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You're like in love, and it's like, wow, I know that you're gonna take my problems away, and you're worshiping this bag, and then you know, you're so caught up in the positives of it that the negatives are happening kind of under under under a blanket, if that makes sense, they're there, but you can't see them, yeah, you know, and it's weird with Cap because the damage is happening, you know, from the minute you take your first line, the damage is happening internally, but it can take again for some people, it can take months, some people a few years, but until it kicks in, it's almost the damage is it is progressing and progressing until you feel it.

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It's not like when you feel it, that's when it's starting.

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It's all been happening, but it's got to a point now where you're physically feeling it.

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Yeah, because obviously I guess that is probably the most dangerous aspect of ketamine as a substance.

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Is that the damage that that it you are doing to your body isn't showing up straight away?

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I I how does that delay convince people they're still in control then but when they're not?

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Yeah, because you know you because you're enjoying it, you've got no reason to stop, have you?

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You know, it's not if you enjoy something, why stop doing it?

00:18:15.680 --> 00:18:26.400
It's because that's kind of how I look at it, and it's still doing what you want it to, you can still go to work, you're still affording it, so there's this seems like there's no issues, there's no debts coming with it, there's there's nothing.

00:18:26.480 --> 00:18:27.839
Uh this was my experience anyway.

00:18:28.400 --> 00:18:28.640
That's it.

00:18:28.720 --> 00:18:30.640
Well, that's that's the that's all you can give, really, isn't it?

00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:32.720
Is your your own your own personal account of it, yeah.

00:18:32.880 --> 00:18:40.400
Yeah, so yeah, so so that's that's kind of how it catches up with you, and then all of a sudden you blink, link your fingers, and the consequences are there.

00:18:40.640 --> 00:18:50.720
But because now you've been taking it for for me, it were probably six months a year-ish, yeah, which taking a substance daily for that long, you you you you know, you're relying, aren't you?

00:18:51.119 --> 00:19:09.279
So by the time it comes to the consequences, you're full of denial, you know, or you're full of guilt and shame because all of a sudden you're having to kind of admit to yourself that there's an issue, so then you're using it then to deal with them problems, you know, and because of the denial, you can all I'm I remember saying to myself, regular, I can stop if I want.

00:19:09.920 --> 00:19:23.839
And I'd convince myself about yeah, I'm in control of this, and I would genuinely make myself believe I was in control because I've never experienced trying to stop taking a substance as such, because I'm taking them all, you know, and recovery weren't something that I was aware of.

00:19:24.480 --> 00:19:25.200
So yeah.

00:19:25.519 --> 00:19:38.000
It makes me think of previous conversations I've had around like uh hepatitis C, which is a very common bloodborne virus that people can get from sharing drug paraphernalia, especially if they're using heroin.

00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:46.480
And the scary thing with hep C is a lot of people are living with it, but it's not affecting them on that day-to-day, and it doesn't become an issue for someone until 20 years down the line.

00:19:46.640 --> 00:19:58.480
So it's hard to get someone to recognise the damage that that that's doing to their body for something that they don't really need to kind of or at least they don't feel like they need to deal with for another 10-20 years, maybe.

00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:06.240
And I guess it's similar to this in the sense of they can take this substance daily, like you said, there's no there's no hangover, there's there's very little withdrawal.

00:20:06.319 --> 00:20:12.799
Like you said, for for someone with a substance misuse problem, for someone who's trying to look for escapism, it's like winning the lottery.

00:20:13.119 --> 00:20:23.359
The interesting thing that I found with ketamine is there's there's people that can, you know, maybe use it for a year daily and not necessarily see those negative effects that it's having.

00:20:23.519 --> 00:20:28.640
But then for some people it can start to unravel for them almost instantly.

00:20:29.200 --> 00:20:33.920
One of the things that scares me the most with ketamine use is is the phrase ketamine bladder.

00:20:34.720 --> 00:20:46.400
Because I guess the reality of that includes uh blood, organ damage, chronic pain, and that I guess it's a permanent loss of dignity in a way, having to have to have what what what that can do.

00:20:47.440 --> 00:20:53.039
What are we still not being honest enough about when we talk about ketamine's physical harm?

00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:57.680
I think I think there is a lot of honesty out there now.

00:20:57.759 --> 00:21:02.000
You know, I think there is a lot more a lot more people speaking out on social media, you know.

00:21:02.240 --> 00:21:05.839
Obviously, our accounts are ketamine education, so everything's related.

00:21:06.079 --> 00:21:11.599
And I flick through and there's hundreds of videos of people from all over the country and some even the world talking about it.

00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:17.279
I think the problem we've got is the conversations aren't being had in the right places.

00:21:18.079 --> 00:21:23.279
And for me, I'm a massive ad advocate advocate for prevention.

00:21:23.359 --> 00:21:26.400
Yeah, it's way easier than intervention, you know.

00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:39.759
And I think this that this kind of comes back to, you know, I'm not passing blame to anyone, it's for the government to look at and be like, look, this issue is here, it's rap, they can see it, they only need to Google it, you know, and it's all over the stats are there to see.

00:21:39.920 --> 00:21:44.000
Obviously, we're hands-on, so we're seeing the the lives being ruined.

00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:49.839
But I think in terms of honest conversations, it's about saying, right, it needs to be in schools, it needs to be.

00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:53.279
I mean, I'm not gonna sit here and say it needs to be mandate mandatory in every school.

00:21:53.519 --> 00:21:57.440
But I could I would argue, you know, it is, and I suppose it's how you approach people.

00:21:57.519 --> 00:21:59.759
I remember when we were teenagers at school, we'd have some.

00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:10.079
Like a group coming and they'd act out this play in front of us around don't do drugs, and it was just really cringy, you know, to the point where it's like you can't take this seriously.

00:22:10.400 --> 00:22:14.880
It's a bunch of adults in the 30s pretending to be teenagers, it's just straight over the head.

00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:18.720
So the messages can be done and they can be implemented early in schools.

00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:21.119
I guess it's just how do you have those conversations?

00:22:21.359 --> 00:22:26.079
I think one of the, and this is just from a from a third-person perspective, but it's like anything.

00:22:26.160 --> 00:22:36.319
I think one of the biggest problems when when we have these conversations, or when people even use substances, is that idea of I I get the dangers, but that'll never happen to me.

00:22:36.400 --> 00:22:43.519
Yeah, there's almost like a there's an ego, like a and yeah, like they're wearing this coat of their ego there, of all these things that's happening to everyone else.

00:22:43.839 --> 00:22:48.160
They're almost trying to shield themselves from it in a way that this will not happen to them.

00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:49.119
But it will do.

00:22:49.200 --> 00:23:11.519
And I think the scary thing more so it's like when I said about blood bomb viruses, and and that's not something that some people will have to deal with for another 10-20 years, with ketamine use, as you said, the damage is instant, and it takes me back to one of the meetings that we had recently as a as a drug service, and it was like you you said prevention is better than early intervention, and we've been discussing early intervention for I mean the last 10 years.

00:23:11.759 --> 00:23:13.680
What does early intervention actually look like?

00:23:13.759 --> 00:23:25.519
And I think looking at ketamine in in particular, one of the leaders of this service had said, Well, early intervention isn't just about giving harm reduction advice at an early stage in someone's journey.

00:23:25.759 --> 00:23:53.039
When it comes to ketamine, we need to be sending sending people off for for urine screenings and and to to assess the damage that's done to their bladder already, because they could only have been using ketamine for maybe a a couple of a couple of weeks, a couple of months, but showing them results of look, the damage is there to your bladder already, if you continue like this, you're gonna end up with as they affectionately call it, the the ketamine bladder, and it's that reality of that situation to people.

00:23:53.279 --> 00:23:54.319
Yeah, absolutely.

00:23:54.480 --> 00:24:17.920
It's funny because I was in a meeting yesterday having this having quite a similar conversation, and what they were saying were the early interventions now, even though they're early in terms of a time scale, they're not early because these people that come in through doors for you know your local drug and alcohol services are absolutely battered from ketamine, and what they're having to do is get them in and fire them straight off the detoxes.

00:24:18.400 --> 00:24:20.240
So these and a lot of them are younger, you know.

00:24:20.319 --> 00:24:40.079
From where I know you see a little bit of a different demographic, but a lot of the areas where I'm from, up more up north, up Burnley and Liverpool, Manchester, them areas, a lot of them are younger people, which obviously has its own risks because a lot of them are underdeveloped, you know, their organs and kidneys and all the rest of it aren't as they should be, so naturally they're going to take a bigger hit.

00:24:40.319 --> 00:24:46.319
A lot of them are already not developed in terms of body mass and size, so again, it takes a bigger hit.

00:24:46.480 --> 00:25:12.559
But one of the worrying things is drug and alcohol services are saying they're coming in, some of them are 16, 17-year-old, you know, with the young people, obviously the normal services, 18, 19, whatever it might be, and they're presenting, and as soon as they present, they they're already peeing blood, they're already getting the cramps, the kidneys and livers are already on the way out, and services are saying, look, we're not we're not a medical unit, we can't deal with this.

00:25:12.640 --> 00:25:19.519
We need to send you to a detox, which you could argue is brilliant because now these young people they're getting sent off to detox.

00:25:19.759 --> 00:25:26.559
Yeah, outside looking in that looks brilliant because yeah, they're gonna go, but when you know about a detox, you know, detox is brilliant.

00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:33.920
I'm not calling detox, but these young people, what's happening with a lot of them now is they're going to do a two-week detox because of the physical pain.

00:25:34.480 --> 00:25:40.240
What's getting mixed up is the fact that when you go to a detox, that's that's for your body, you know.

00:25:40.400 --> 00:25:44.799
Rehab is where you do the work on your brain on the real stuff that can bring around long-term recovery.

00:25:45.440 --> 00:25:47.119
For the use to begin with, do you know what I mean?

00:25:47.519 --> 00:25:47.759
Exactly.

00:25:47.920 --> 00:25:50.720
There was there was a reason to start using that substance to begin with.

00:25:50.960 --> 00:25:53.039
It's it's like any any detox, isn't it, really?

00:25:53.119 --> 00:25:53.279
Do you know?

00:25:53.359 --> 00:25:58.559
I mean, I've seen people go through emergency alcohol detoxes, but we haven't addressed the reasons why they was drinking in the first place.

00:25:58.640 --> 00:26:00.079
So they go for that detox.

00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:11.680
I remember one guy, he'd gone for his alcohol detox and he was on the train home, and the the little woman came down, you know, anything from the trolley deer, and he got himself a got himself a can of lager, do you know?

00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:18.319
Because he'd he thought he was fixed then, he thought he could drink in quotations normally because he'd gone through that detox.

00:26:18.480 --> 00:26:22.319
So people are gonna come out of these Ketamin detoxes, you're not addressing the reasons for use.

00:26:22.400 --> 00:26:29.440
And it sounds like by you know, by your by your own experience, you've done a lot of work on yourself talking about your family and and and those connections.

00:26:29.599 --> 00:26:33.759
If they haven't done all that, then the Ketaman use is just gonna start again, isn't it?

00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:35.039
When they get back out of detox.

00:26:35.519 --> 00:26:36.480
There's a good chance, yeah.

00:26:36.559 --> 00:26:52.960
I mean, don't get me wrong, I know a lot of people that that speaking to someone again yesterday in the meeting, and there's a girl that had gone done a two-week, and she's 107 days clean, you know, which is brilliant, still very early, but there is there is cases where people do go to a detox and they do get sober, but yeah.

00:26:53.519 --> 00:26:58.079
It's like you've just said, the way I see it is for me, and you know, again, just my opinion.

00:26:58.240 --> 00:27:10.319
I think unless if you fall into addiction, there's a reason, you know, and you can go in and you can deal with the substance until you dig deep and you understand why you fell into that addiction.

00:27:10.480 --> 00:27:13.680
Some people don't agree, some people might, but it's my opinion.

00:27:14.160 --> 00:27:18.319
Until you dig deep on it and find out what it is, why do you feel the way you do?

00:27:18.400 --> 00:27:20.480
Why do you want to stop feeling the way you do?

00:27:20.559 --> 00:27:23.519
What are you running from, hiding from, whatever it might be?

00:27:23.839 --> 00:27:31.519
You are always at risk of not necessarily substance abuse but negative behaviours and and and addictions.

00:27:31.599 --> 00:27:33.200
And I think as human beings we are anyway.

00:27:33.279 --> 00:27:39.839
I'm not sitting here saying I don't make mistakes because I do, but I understand the way my mind works, you know.

00:27:39.920 --> 00:27:56.160
I'm not saying again I'm perfect, and then I've done loads of work and I'm like uh some kind of saint because I'm not, you know, but I've done in enough work up to now to understand why I took substances, to understand how fast I can slip back into where I were.

00:27:56.240 --> 00:28:06.880
And there's all these there's all these factors, you know, that you do when you go into a rehab, and there's a reason it takes three months because there's a lot of work to do, you know, and if it were if two weeks was enough, rehab would be two weeks.

00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:09.920
You know, some rehabs is a rehab that we work closely with.

00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:16.559
Some lads in there, and it's a male only, you've been there two, three years, and the programme just continues, you know.

00:28:16.640 --> 00:28:34.480
So it's um it's not a short-term fix, but I think again, with the age as we see in, and and and I've you know, I've been that person with with the ego, with impatient, naive, you know, I was very I was all of them three things, plus probably another ten more uh in my first few rehabs.

00:28:34.559 --> 00:28:36.880
I've done four rehabs, I think, four or five.

00:28:37.200 --> 00:28:39.359
My first three rehabs, I was I were like that.

00:28:39.440 --> 00:28:43.119
I thought all I need to do is turn up, just be there.

00:28:43.359 --> 00:28:50.799
Somebody's gonna pass me a book or let me drink a magic pot or something, and I'll be alright, and I'll walk out and life goes back to normal.

00:28:51.039 --> 00:28:58.960
I don't think people realise how much work you have to do on yourself in somewhere like a rehab, and it's the same here as a substance misuse service.

00:28:59.039 --> 00:29:05.359
I had a call just uh around Christmas time and it was a woman saying uh saying she wants to refer her husband into treatment.

00:29:05.519 --> 00:29:06.720
I said, Does he want to be in treatment?

00:29:06.799 --> 00:29:10.160
She went, Well, he's agreed to come come once, and I was like, Okay.

00:29:10.480 --> 00:29:13.279
I said, Do you realise there's nothing we can do with someone in one session?

00:29:13.839 --> 00:29:22.960
And it's it's that level of work, but I do think in some way people think that we just have this little magic wand, and it's the same when people go off to rehab.

00:29:23.200 --> 00:29:28.319
I think people think they're just gonna go there, they're gonna like use it, drink a magic portion and come out and be absolutely fine.

00:29:28.400 --> 00:29:35.839
Yeah, there's a lot of self-work there, isn't there, that you have to to go through for it to be sustainable when you you when you come out.

00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:47.920
One of the things that I found interesting that you've said is that there comes a point where Ketterman stops being about fun and starts looking like self-harm, and that's an interesting an interesting connection to look at it.

00:29:48.079 --> 00:29:54.160
Can you tell me a little bit more about how it's a strong thing to say, self-harm is obviously a very serious thing, is it?

00:29:54.240 --> 00:29:55.039
It's a strong thing to say.

00:29:55.200 --> 00:29:57.359
Can you tell me how it looked like self-harm?

00:29:57.680 --> 00:30:07.839
I think any addiction becomes self-harm because as much as we can deny and ignore what we're doing to ourself, you know, and the harm it's having, like I did with ketamine.

00:30:08.079 --> 00:30:13.839
Got to a point I would pee in blood jelly, which is the gagler in my bladder, relationships locked down.

00:30:14.160 --> 00:30:14.720
Yeah, yeah.

00:30:15.039 --> 00:30:16.240
Oh sorry, I'm gonna have to interrupt.

00:30:16.480 --> 00:30:18.799
Tell me about telling never I've never heard that one before.

00:30:18.880 --> 00:30:19.200
What's that?

00:30:19.359 --> 00:30:20.000
Right, okay, yeah.

00:30:20.079 --> 00:30:22.400
So we'll pick back up, so we'll talk about the jelly.

00:30:23.039 --> 00:30:32.160
So obviously, the first steps you start getting the pains, the ketamine bladder, and without going too much into it right now, I'm sure we'll pick it back up.

00:30:32.240 --> 00:30:35.119
The pain is absolutely stupid, I've never felt pain like it.

00:30:35.440 --> 00:30:41.920
The kind of next steps is seeing bits of blood in your urine, and that then becomes normal.

00:30:42.079 --> 00:30:48.720
This again, my experience, it became normal, so much so that if I went to the toilet and didn't see blood, I'd be more shocked than if I did.

00:30:49.200 --> 00:30:54.880
And it's like, but by this point, I'm still I'm still deflecting the fact that it's ketamine that's doing that to me.

00:30:55.200 --> 00:31:00.240
I'm blaming something I've had for tea or something I've drank, or that cherry ahead I don't know.

00:31:00.480 --> 00:31:01.119
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:31:01.359 --> 00:31:04.079
Falling over when I was two year old and banging my kidneys, you know.

00:31:04.640 --> 00:31:06.880
Must have been that thing that happened all those years ago.

00:31:07.119 --> 00:31:07.519
Yeah, yeah.

00:31:07.680 --> 00:31:09.839
Anything and everything, and we do, don't we?

00:31:10.240 --> 00:31:13.440
But then when it got scary, was seeing this jelly come out.

00:31:13.599 --> 00:31:23.440
The way I describe it to people, and and I say this twice a week, so I apologize anyone who likes these sweets, but it's almost like the little jelly worms, the clear sweets that you get.

00:31:23.839 --> 00:31:25.359
That's the best way I could describe it.

00:31:27.920 --> 00:31:28.400
That's it.

00:31:28.559 --> 00:31:34.559
And and when I when you think about urinating, anyone who's never had pain, it's like it's a liquid, it just comes out.

00:31:34.960 --> 00:31:43.039
Let me tell you, when you've seen clumps like that and that, you know, just for anyone obviously who's listening, you're talking, some of them are like an inch and a half in length.

00:31:43.279 --> 00:31:46.720
When trying to pass through the pain, it's unbelievable.

00:31:46.960 --> 00:31:53.039
It feels like you've got glass coming through, and it's trying to, and every time you squeeze, it's moving off.

00:31:53.440 --> 00:31:56.559
I'm feeling the pain like in my grass, as you're just describing it.

00:31:56.640 --> 00:32:00.000
I'm just I can feel it like when you're just wincing, yeah.

00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:16.480
But I'm wincing there, it's oh it's it's horrible, you know, and it's it does me good talking about this stuff if I'm being honest, because I can often forget, you know, and I can and I can because I get caught so caught up in day-to-day life, and sometimes I forget where I've been.

00:32:16.640 --> 00:32:22.319
So it's good just to remind me, it's good to sit down and have to put myself back in that just for a split, you know.

00:32:23.119 --> 00:32:29.680
And it's passing through your bladder and then it comes out eventually, but it can take some of them can take hours to come out, so you can feel it.

00:32:30.160 --> 00:32:32.240
Oh no, top, yeah.

00:32:32.400 --> 00:32:38.880
Uh but what it can do is it can block urine from coming out, so the urine can actually back up and cause all kinds of problems.

00:32:39.440 --> 00:32:45.440
And you can go to the toilet, long story short, and be dying for the toilet, and you're standing, you're squeezing and you're squeezing, and nothing's coming out.

00:32:45.519 --> 00:32:48.160
You'd be lucky to get a drop, but you know you need to go.

00:32:48.640 --> 00:32:50.400
You can't go, so you go back to your bedroom.

00:32:50.480 --> 00:32:52.400
You know, by this point, now I'm isolated away.

00:32:52.480 --> 00:32:54.319
This is just my again my story.

00:32:54.559 --> 00:33:08.480
And I'll sit back down for 10 minutes, and that whole 10 minutes I feel like I'm gonna wee myself, but I know I'm not gonna because it's not coming out, and then eventually, this you know, this jelly will pass through and it'll come out, and then the urine will come out, and it's like, oh thank god.

00:33:08.960 --> 00:33:15.519
And I never knew what the jelly were for quite a long period of time, which is quite scary, really, to think that I haven't seen it coming out.

00:33:15.680 --> 00:33:21.440
But again, I knew if I googled it and I and I and I did, but if I knew if I looked hard enough, I'd find the answer.

00:33:21.519 --> 00:33:28.319
But it's what don't knock on a door if you don't like who's gonna answer, it's one of them, so I didn't look too too hard.

00:33:28.799 --> 00:33:32.559
And in hindsight, now basically what was happening was it's the gag layer of my bladder.

00:33:32.640 --> 00:33:47.440
So how I kind of describe it, and I'm not a doctor, you know, I don't want to sit here like I'm uh clever or I'm a doctor because I'm not, but how I like to think of it is if you look at the way the skin acts externally, the gag layer of the bladder is kind of that internally on your bladder.

00:33:47.599 --> 00:34:05.920
So if you drink fizzy pop, caffeine, all the things that we know irritate all our bowels and stomachs and that kind of thing, that's what it does to the bladder, and that gag layer protects it from kind of from the raw, you know, the raw organ around it, if that's what you want to call it.

00:34:06.400 --> 00:34:16.960
The ketamine it literally eats that the gag layer, you know, it literally sticks to it and then it just eats it, and then that comes off into your bladder, and obviously then it's got to pass through.

00:34:17.440 --> 00:34:19.519
So that's what I was seeing with the jelly.

00:34:19.599 --> 00:34:29.760
And the scariest and the saddest thing about this, really, you know, is the amount of people that are getting that on a daily basis, up and down the country, even the world, you know.

00:34:29.840 --> 00:34:43.039
We speak to people from America and we've had people from New Zealand and all kinds of places that they've got little pockets where it's a massive problem there, and you know, and I've spoken about this in the past, and you get a real mixed thing on this.

00:34:43.119 --> 00:34:50.639
So for anybody, you know who is this who doesn't understand addiction, you spite that question, but why would you keep doing it?

00:34:50.960 --> 00:35:05.199
They don't understand it, they're like, and they'll they'll they'll be this blame, they'll say, Well, it's your fault, and you know, and I'm the type of person I'll take responsibility 100%, it's my fault because I put the first line in, and I I knew if I took one line I'm at risk of addiction, you know.

00:35:05.280 --> 00:35:18.000
So if I'd take the responsibility 100%, but at the same time, it's like I never knew taking ketamine would cause these problems, and and I'd like to think if I did know that I wouldn't have taken it, but truth of the matter is I don't know, do I?

00:35:18.079 --> 00:35:23.199
You know, I'm not gonna sit here and say that, but but yeah, that that's kind of the jelly.

00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:30.320
But I've got some photos and stuff on my phone I can I can show you after if you want, just to yeah, I think there's the self-harm things, you know.

00:35:30.480 --> 00:35:43.519
Obviously, I and I I completely agree with what you're saying, all addiction is self-harm, but to be putting yourself through that, and I guess like you said, then the bizarre thing is to be experiencing that, but to still continue taking care men.

00:35:44.159 --> 00:35:48.880
You said you didn't Google it specifically because you you knew it was linked to it.

00:35:49.280 --> 00:36:08.559
There very much sounds like there's an element of denial to that though, because you didn't want it to be that, and it goes back to what you're saying that you found the miracle drug, and it's almost like it sounds like you you're trying to defend it in a way, like it's like I don't want it to I don't want to accept there's anything negative about this because this is my lottery ticket, this is this is my this is my winnings here.

00:36:09.199 --> 00:36:17.199
When did you start to accept that okay ketamine is what is causing this horrendous damage to my bladder?

00:36:17.920 --> 00:36:23.760
Do you know it's it's funny really because and it sort of goes back to the self-horn without getting sidetracked.

00:36:24.079 --> 00:36:27.119
I think you get to a certain point with the consequences.

00:36:27.519 --> 00:36:37.760
Your self-esteem and your self-low it is so bad, it's non-existent, you know, it's gone the complete opposite way to the point where now you don't I didn't care about myself.

00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:44.159
I wasn't interested whether I lived or died, in fact, without again going off topic too much, and I'm not even into God.

00:36:44.239 --> 00:36:46.159
I used to pray that God would take my life away.

00:36:46.239 --> 00:36:47.280
I didn't want to wake up.

00:36:47.360 --> 00:36:57.199
I was again very fortunate to have some good family around me, and it I've got sidetracked, I know I'd do that.

00:36:57.280 --> 00:36:58.639
Can you just ask me a question again?

00:36:59.840 --> 00:37:04.320
I guess really it was just about I've got sad track now because I was listening there.

00:37:04.480 --> 00:37:05.679
Um sorry Robin.

00:37:06.239 --> 00:37:06.639
Alright.

00:37:07.119 --> 00:37:09.760
So we was talking about the the self-harm element of it.

00:37:09.840 --> 00:37:10.239
That was it.

00:37:10.320 --> 00:37:16.639
It was when did you realise that or when did you accept that it was Ketamin that was causing that damage to your bladder?

00:37:16.719 --> 00:37:17.360
Yeah.

00:37:17.760 --> 00:37:21.599
So yeah, so again, you know, my self-esteem was so low.

00:37:21.760 --> 00:37:26.880
It wasn't necessarily that the physical effects that that made me look and accept what it were.

00:37:27.039 --> 00:38:03.440
For me, it was it was the family stuff, it was the relationship breakdowns, seeing you know, my mum ringing me up, crying, my dad ringing me up, telling me he didn't want to be here anymore, missing time with my niece who at the time would have been four-year-old, three, four-year-old, lover to bit, she's my best mate, and constantly rushing about or being having ket cramps and having to shoot off, and and it was that for me more than anything that mounted up and made me think, right, you know, look what you're doing to your family, and and that's then kind of when I started looking back to myself and thinking, Yeah, but you look what you're doing to your cell as well, you know, and it was kind of a combination.

00:38:03.519 --> 00:38:13.599
So for me, it wasn't again, it wasn't necessarily just the physical stuff, or that wasn't the the turning point, it was the external factors with my family and and even my friendships and stuff.

00:38:13.679 --> 00:38:18.719
It's um and and it's tricky because I used on that as well.

00:38:18.880 --> 00:38:26.880
You know, that was there was a good chunk where I'd I'd where my mum would ring me for example, or a story I tell quite regularly, I bumped into my mum once on a main road.

00:38:27.119 --> 00:38:35.760
I live with my stepdad, she's back with my dad, and they live kind of where I lived after they'd split up it long story without getting into it all.

00:38:36.239 --> 00:38:42.719
And I bumped into her on a main road and and she looked at me, and she was about to say sorry, thinking it was just a stranger.

00:38:43.039 --> 00:38:49.039
I'll never forget this, and I tell this a lot in the talks that I do, and she looked at me and the colour just drained instantly out of her face.

00:38:49.360 --> 00:38:53.360
And she'd not seen me for probably two or three weeks, because that's what I did.

00:38:53.440 --> 00:39:01.599
I'd vanish for two or three weeks of going a big bender, then I'd resurface, you know, come out of hibernation, coming around trying to find money and borrow money, and like we do.

00:39:01.760 --> 00:39:06.000
And uh, she just looked at me and the colour drained, and I didn't know what to say to her.

00:39:06.079 --> 00:39:13.760
I was actually going to pick up some ketamine a couple of streets on, and I'm in agony, and at that point I probably looked the worst I've ever looked.

00:39:13.840 --> 00:39:18.159
I think I'd got down to about eight stone, seven and a half, eight stone, bit of context.

00:39:18.239 --> 00:39:19.840
Now I'm about 13, you know.

00:39:20.239 --> 00:39:24.880
Naturally, I should be about 11, 12, you know, or so, and this was a few years back as well.

00:39:25.199 --> 00:39:33.280
So I'm way underweight, pale as a ghost, big long beard, not had my hair cut, probably not had a shower realistically in days, probably not brushed my teeth in days, you know.

00:39:33.360 --> 00:39:34.159
I was a mess.

00:39:34.320 --> 00:39:36.960
And she just looked at me and and she couldn't talk.

00:39:37.199 --> 00:39:50.320
I could see her brain working and just trying to say something to me, and she just couldn't, and I couldn't say, 'Oh, I wanted to hug her and say I'm sorry.' But sorry's an absolute waste of time by this point.

00:39:50.480 --> 00:39:55.519
The amount of times I've said they've had a pound for every time I've said it, I'd be a billionaire, you know.

00:39:55.679 --> 00:39:59.119
And it was just this really it was a heartbreaking interaction.

00:39:59.199 --> 00:40:08.480
But the reason I'm telling you this is because then my mum had to go home off the back of that and go and sit and and not know where I'm going, not know where anything about me.

00:40:08.559 --> 00:40:09.440
Is he gonna be here tomorrow?

00:40:09.519 --> 00:40:10.400
Is he gonna kill his cell?

00:40:10.480 --> 00:40:11.440
Is cat gonna kill him?

00:40:11.599 --> 00:40:12.320
Blah blah blah.

00:40:12.639 --> 00:40:17.840
I went and picked my cat up and straight away I had a bump of it, and that issue that had just happened disappeared now.

00:40:18.239 --> 00:40:30.320
And that's kind of a really good representation of how it worked, but it's kind of ironic because the reason I'm taking it now is because I've caused a problem from taking it, so it kind of sheds a bit of light, doesn't it?

00:40:30.480 --> 00:40:39.039
How you take it at first for a bit of fun, but you find out it's the solution, but then you start causing problems from it, and now you don't know what's going on.

00:40:39.360 --> 00:41:07.679
Yeah, I think I think one of the things I I've always found interesting is the idea of when people talk about like the the continuous trauma element, and and it's not to not putting this onto your story directly, but what it reminds me of is when people first start using a substance for escapism, maybe from a trauma, but then when they're deep in addiction, they're experiencing more and more trauma, so then it's harder to get out because that escapism or that need for escapism becomes deeper and deeper and deeper.

00:41:08.079 --> 00:41:18.159
I mentioned cocaine and I guess the culture on cocaine is shifting because cocaine now, I mean, like I see little Instagram reels and and it's all about like you know, they're making a bit of light of it.

00:41:18.239 --> 00:41:25.760
And I've been on nights out where you hear people say, Oh, I've just just done a bump in the no like real audible about it.

00:41:26.000 --> 00:41:33.199
Whereas again, when I was a bit younger, there was a bit of shame there people would be wiping the nose, worried that someone would notice that they'd had it.

00:41:33.360 --> 00:41:42.480
And I think in in a way, do you know ketamine still has this stigma of being hidden compared to other drugs?

00:41:42.880 --> 00:41:51.199
Why do you think that is when other drugs seem to be glamorised, especially party drugs like you know, cocaine and and MDMA, all those sort of things.

00:41:51.440 --> 00:41:54.159
Why is there still such a stigma with ketamine then?

00:41:54.480 --> 00:41:58.320
It's quite interesting that I think so again.

00:41:58.480 --> 00:42:04.480
Obviously, I'm from Burnley from from round here, around Hullway, so it's probably slightly different, but I'd imagine it's very, very similar.

00:42:04.639 --> 00:42:10.000
Yeah, what what what I saw, and again, for I'm I'm 26 now and I started taking it at 18, you know.

00:42:10.239 --> 00:42:20.159
So what I kind of saw early on was people were taking it and it just started becoming, you know, again 2018, 2019, it was starting to become kind of a cool drug.

00:42:20.239 --> 00:42:20.400
Yeah.

00:42:20.559 --> 00:42:24.719
I remember going to the first festival when it had just come around, and it was crazy.

00:42:24.880 --> 00:42:26.800
It was like a zombie apocalypse.

00:42:26.960 --> 00:42:34.960
Everyone had gone from swallowing pills and doing cork, being you know, out and about and active to just lead on floor, like literally like zombies.

00:42:35.360 --> 00:42:46.320
But it started to become cool, and you could see it progressing in clubs, more people would be taking it, and you could obviously you know if someone's on cat by the way they are, take someone takes a bump of cork, they're alert, aren't they?

00:42:46.400 --> 00:42:48.000
And it's the opposite.

00:42:48.079 --> 00:43:10.800
So you kind of seen it starting, and then all of a sudden, I think within probably two or three years of that, people started feeling the consequences, and it started going the other way then, to the point where now I know people that take it, but it's kind of and again it's tricky because I'm not in the circles that I were anymore, you know.

00:43:10.880 --> 00:43:13.440
I mean recovery, so I don't know what it's like at festivals.

00:43:13.519 --> 00:43:29.119
I imagine it's the same, but from what I see personally, the people obviously I speak to are trying to get recovery, so there's a lot of guilt around it, so they're not us out, but I do feel like it's taking a bit of a backwards step due to the press coverage, the media, all that sort of stuff.

00:43:29.440 --> 00:43:43.599
I think now when people take it, I can only imagine there's a bit of guilt attached, even to someone who's not an addict, because they're gonna remember watching BBC documentaries of someone walking round with with nephrostomies on, or you know.

00:43:44.000 --> 00:43:54.239
But I think when we talk about kind of the stigma, and again, it's a bit of a I don't know again, a bit of a grey area, but I think there needs to be more stigma attached to it.

00:43:54.320 --> 00:43:59.840
And I don't say that in a sense of stigma where you know people say, Oh, Ketem, ooh.

00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:03.039
Because I if I someone actually said that to me not long back, what did they say?

00:44:03.119 --> 00:44:03.760
It's nitty.

00:44:04.239 --> 00:44:04.559
Knitty.

00:44:04.960 --> 00:44:09.760
Doing a talk in a college and some lag, and when I'd just done the talk and he came out when he's like, Oh, it's for nittties, ketamine.

00:44:10.719 --> 00:44:12.719
And I was like, Alright, fair enough.

00:44:12.800 --> 00:44:14.960
If that's what you think, you're not gonna take it, so that's alright.

00:44:15.199 --> 00:44:17.280
Yeah, job, job done, yeah in a weird way.

00:44:17.360 --> 00:44:17.760
Yeah, yeah.

00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:18.559
Job done.

00:44:18.719 --> 00:44:21.679
Um but also still kind of offended at the same time, you know.

00:44:21.920 --> 00:44:23.039
Like, hang on, mate.

00:44:23.679 --> 00:44:25.440
That was my that was my drug, didn't you?

00:44:25.519 --> 00:44:25.840
Yeah, yeah.

00:44:26.000 --> 00:44:28.800
I shook my hand before he gave me an hook and all that, then said I'm a nitty.

00:44:28.960 --> 00:44:31.280
I was like, Yeah, cheers pal.

00:44:31.679 --> 00:44:32.000
Good job.

00:44:32.079 --> 00:44:33.119
We're in college.

00:44:35.199 --> 00:44:36.960
Yeah, but anyway, so back to it.

00:44:37.119 --> 00:44:50.320
So, yeah, so I think stigma in terms of understanding and awareness and education, you know, not stigmas in terms of let's call your names and let's look down on you, because naturally that already happens with addiction, doesn't it?

00:44:50.400 --> 00:44:50.719
Of course, yeah.

00:44:50.960 --> 00:44:52.400
In society, unfortunately.

00:44:52.639 --> 00:44:53.280
Yeah.

00:44:53.840 --> 00:45:00.480
People often say that they've they you know, it goes back to that control element, they thought they was choosing it, but really it was choosing them.

00:45:00.719 --> 00:45:03.039
What does it do to that decision making?

00:45:03.119 --> 00:45:05.679
The insight and the belief that you are still in control.

00:45:05.840 --> 00:45:09.679
I'm just thinking about when you said when people are on cocaine, they're a little bit more alert, aren't they?

00:45:09.840 --> 00:45:13.519
And the differences of of whether they're under the influence of Kerman.

00:45:14.400 --> 00:45:15.039
Yeah.

00:45:15.840 --> 00:45:30.239
So yeah, in terms of decision making, I think, and again I can only speak for myself, but cocaine I got in a lot more dangerous situations because it usually came for the first few years it came hand in hand with drink.

00:45:30.400 --> 00:45:34.400
Well, first couple of years, then it started, you know, it was dry sniffing cocaine.

00:45:34.559 --> 00:45:37.599
But obviously, then you're out and about on nuts out.

00:45:37.760 --> 00:45:41.440
You I'm a young lad, it's testosterone, all my mates are out getting ready.

00:45:41.519 --> 00:45:46.480
So we got into a lot more, I'm not gonna say dangerous situations, but stupid situations.

00:45:46.639 --> 00:46:01.440
When it was ketamine, we'd someone had a free house, for example, you know, we're young lads, we'd go around all chipping, had a big bag, and as wild as it got was us all being in the kettle at the same time, and we're kind of just moping round house.

00:46:01.679 --> 00:46:13.199
I'd actually love, you know, to get CCTV footage of what we look like, um, you know, and I'm not gonna go into what what I experienced and stuff because I don't want to glamorise it, you know, learn.

00:46:13.360 --> 00:46:22.079
But there'd be eight of us in I remember one time Christmas years ago, there's about eight of us in my mate's grandma's house, she'd gone away, better not saying names actually.

00:46:22.320 --> 00:46:33.519
And every single one of us were walking round, and I remember kind of sobering up and looking round, and everyone again is like zombies, no foot, no colour in the face, just eyes like just gone.

00:46:33.840 --> 00:46:37.599
And at the time I thought, this is good, like this this feeling's brilliant.

00:46:37.760 --> 00:46:40.719
I looked back, and all it were is was just not feeling reality.

00:46:40.800 --> 00:46:43.119
That's what I loved about the detachment of it, yeah.

00:46:43.760 --> 00:46:46.400
It's a disassociative drug, and then that's what it does.

00:46:46.559 --> 00:46:49.199
So if you want to disassociate, you take that.

00:46:49.519 --> 00:46:50.559
That's what people take, yeah.

00:46:50.719 --> 00:46:53.360
Yeah, so your decision making, yeah.

00:46:54.239 --> 00:47:02.960
Again, weren't really in loads of I don't know, because then you look at the way you take it at festivals and walking round, and you know, I used to go and pick it up on my own every day.

00:47:03.039 --> 00:47:05.840
I used to walk up near where I'm from.

00:47:05.920 --> 00:47:20.000
I'm not gonna again saying the names in case people get linked in with stuff, but walk up at a main road, and as soon as I got it, I had to take it because of the pain I'm in, and I'd have a big bump on my hand, and I'd be fairly out of it, and I'd be walking, crossing over the main roads back home.

00:47:20.559 --> 00:47:23.599
So, you know, it does affect your decision making, really.

00:47:23.920 --> 00:47:26.960
Yeah, to think, yeah, because I guess it's like any substance.

00:47:27.039 --> 00:47:37.840
I mean, how many times you see people under the influence of alcohol and almost think they've got this some invulnerability to danger, you know, people just walking out in front of roads, like all cars are just gonna stop for them, or something like that.

00:47:38.079 --> 00:47:48.559
It creates this almost like um I think of a scene, I think it was in like um a superhero film that I saw, Hancock with Smith where they truck it same and he just dints the bringing it.

00:47:48.719 --> 00:47:53.599
I'm sure that's how people feel when they do take certain substances because they do just walk out in front of the road.

00:47:53.679 --> 00:47:59.360
And I don't know if there's this arrogance thing of or this belief that they'll stop for me because I'm important, you know what I mean?

00:47:59.519 --> 00:48:03.280
Or if it's just a case of completely oblivious to the situation as well.

00:48:03.440 --> 00:48:03.679
Yeah.

00:48:04.000 --> 00:48:16.159
We've talked about the the some of the physical effects in terms like the the effects it has on the bladder, but what are some of the other physical or even psychological warning sounds that that shouldn't be ignored when it comes to ketamine's?

00:48:16.880 --> 00:48:19.920
There's a list, there's a real list with with this sort of stuff.

00:48:20.079 --> 00:48:34.000
So psychosis can be one of them, leading to psychosis, you know, when you're seeing some of the stuff that you see, you can kind of end up not knowing what's real, what's not real, when you're having episodes, when you're not, you know, there's that so there's that issue.

00:48:34.159 --> 00:48:37.199
There's the issue with younger people, again, we talked we touched on it earlier.

00:48:37.360 --> 00:48:43.360
Um, you know, if you're I'm not gonna put age limits on it, because if someone hears it and thinks, oh, I'm older than that, I'm alright.

00:48:43.599 --> 00:48:46.719
Yeah, if you're you know safe for me because I've hit this.

00:48:47.039 --> 00:48:52.719
Yeah, if you're a certain age and you're still developing, you know, your brain and your and your body physically, I've seen it.

00:48:52.800 --> 00:49:03.760
There's a there's a lad that I know personally from where I live, not gonna mention names, and lovely lad, you know, really nice lad, did a few years in ketamine addiction and other stuff before that.

00:49:04.000 --> 00:49:18.719
But you speak to him, and I genuinely believe, you know, again I'm not a doctor, but I honestly believe because he's put substances in his brain, chemicals in his brain and in his body, while he's trying to develop, there's no social skills there.

00:49:18.880 --> 00:49:24.719
It's almost like you're talking to a blank canvas, and it takes him seconds and seconds to re to respond, and it's sad.

00:49:24.960 --> 00:49:42.000
Well, it's all like arrested development syndrome with with people under the people who use substances, like even some of the some of the guys and girls we work with, sometimes I think you're acting like teenagers, and then you realise, well, actually, it's because in some way the mental growth was stunned at at being that teenage years.

00:49:42.480 --> 00:49:48.000
Think of some of the behaviours they display the same ones that me and my friends displayed when we were teenagers drinking on the park.

00:49:48.079 --> 00:49:50.400
Yeah, and it's almost like why why is that a thing?

00:49:50.480 --> 00:49:52.159
But it's very much a real thing, isn't it?

00:49:52.239 --> 00:49:57.920
If you take substances in LH, you can develop it, can stunt your mental growth and physical growth as well, yeah.

00:49:58.079 --> 00:50:06.480
Yeah, so that that's one speech, memory, hearing, smell, all that sort of stuff that comes with it, but yeah, more sort of the body.

00:50:06.719 --> 00:50:10.400
So the it's weird because well it's not weird, it makes sense.

00:50:10.639 --> 00:50:13.519
It affects a male body and a female body quite differently.

00:50:13.679 --> 00:50:16.239
Yeah, naturally, obviously, we've got different setups, haven't we?

00:50:16.400 --> 00:50:18.400
They've got stuff we aren't, vice versa.

00:50:19.199 --> 00:50:32.000
There's a lot of stuff now pointing towards infertility in males and females, and even if you you know take the infertility out of it, the the body's struggling to even provide what it needs.

00:50:32.079 --> 00:50:47.440
To I'm not going to use the ex the the examples that I've got because it's quite you know touchy subject with people that might listen, but these these girls that fell pregnant by accident off the back of pills, tablets not working because cancels it out, yeah.

00:50:47.519 --> 00:50:49.519
Yeah, the body's not breaking it down as it should be.

00:50:49.599 --> 00:50:51.119
So then they fell pregnant.

00:50:51.440 --> 00:50:58.079
Some of them have said, Oh yeah, we'll have the baby, you know, they're in recovery, early recovery, and then they've miscarried.

00:50:58.239 --> 00:51:30.239
And again, just just to double up on it, I'm not a scientist, but there's evidence to kind of suggest that the damage that's been done to the internal organs now, they can't provide what needs to be provided for another life, and unfortunately, you know, now with lads infertility, I know for a fact this is this is a thing, and it doesn't necessarily mean it's long-lasting, you know, it's not like you're gonna be infertile for the rest of your life, but I know when you speaking from kind of personal experience without saying too much, it can make you infertile while you're taking it.

00:51:30.320 --> 00:51:41.440
Um erectile dysfunction's one, so there's then with the with the private areas, you know, with girls, it can affect periods and the complete, you know, that kind of reproductive system and all that sort of stuff.

00:51:41.679 --> 00:51:50.880
Then you've got problems with obviously kidney, liver, prostate, bladder that we've talked about, stomach, what else?

00:51:50.960 --> 00:51:51.920
There's there's so many.

00:51:52.159 --> 00:51:54.079
It does it does a number on just about everything.

00:51:54.320 --> 00:52:15.039
It's the same with I guess, you know, again, my my the experiences that I have on this podcast are primarily on hope it's an alcohol, but conversation I had about alcohol being related to various cancers, and people never would would suspect that to be a thing, but it's scientifically proven that you know alcohol consumption can attribute and and to to various cancers.

00:52:15.199 --> 00:52:28.320
I guess it's obviously we're talking a lot about your own experiences here, but if someone was listening to this and and recognises themselves in in what you're saying, uh and they're using ketamine to cope or to uh harden the damage and telling them they'll they'll stop tomorrow.

00:52:28.400 --> 00:52:39.039
And the same with that you know addicts do what truth do they need to face before ketamine takes anything any more or any anything more away from them?

00:52:39.360 --> 00:52:41.840
First thing I'd I'd say is tomorrow never comes.

00:52:42.000 --> 00:52:43.840
That'd be the first thing I'd say.

00:52:44.719 --> 00:52:49.760
There's thousands of times where I've led there at night and I've said tomorrow's the last that's it.

00:52:50.000 --> 00:52:54.559
This is the last line I'm having, tomorrow changes, and it never happened up to the time it wants, you know.

00:52:55.039 --> 00:52:57.840
So that'd be the first thing I'd say, tomorrow never comes.

00:52:58.000 --> 00:53:00.480
If you're gonna do something, do it now, get cracking.

00:53:00.719 --> 00:53:06.000
You know, the first thing is honesty, you know, and it's easier said than done.

00:53:06.079 --> 00:53:09.679
I'm not gonna sit here and say from the minute I decided I had a problem, I was completely honest.

00:53:10.320 --> 00:53:11.599
But honesty is vital.

00:53:11.840 --> 00:53:24.000
Connection, reaching out, finding what supports around you, and I don't know what kind of audience, but we're here in this building, it looks a brilliant setup, you know, finding your local drug and alcohol services, getting in touch with them.

00:53:24.079 --> 00:53:42.239
There's a big, a big I'm not gonna say misconception, because it's been there, and for some people it probably still is around ketamine education in GPs, drug and alcohol services hospitals, even urology departments, you know, there's there's been a a big thing of lack of education around it.

00:53:42.400 --> 00:53:44.880
However, things have changed massively.

00:53:45.039 --> 00:53:47.360
So this is a message I do like to push.

00:53:47.519 --> 00:53:59.280
If you have tried it, if you have reached out for support, or you've had a negative experience in any of the places we've just spoken about, try it again because things have changed a lot, and your experience this time will be ten times different to the first one.

00:53:59.519 --> 00:54:02.480
But reaching out for support, speak to the people around you.

00:54:02.639 --> 00:54:10.400
Some people are very fortunate to have good family, good friends, some people haven't, you know, and I appreciate that, and obviously, you know, I empathise with that.

00:54:10.800 --> 00:54:15.039
It's being honest with the people around you and taking responsibility.

00:54:15.280 --> 00:54:18.480
That's when things really changed for me, was when I took responsibility for it.

00:54:18.559 --> 00:54:22.079
When I stopped saying it's your fault, your fault, your fault.

00:54:22.320 --> 00:54:24.320
It's this living in blame, you know.

00:54:24.400 --> 00:54:28.079
Well, I lived in blame for so long that stopped me taking responsibility.

00:54:28.159 --> 00:54:31.519
And if I live in blame or don't take responsibility, how am I going to change?

00:54:32.079 --> 00:54:37.519
It was kind of the turning point for me was saying, Look, I've got myself in this mess, I've got to get myself out of it.

00:54:37.679 --> 00:54:43.440
Nobody's gonna come and knock on my door and whisk me away to some rehab and do the work and just give me a portion.

00:54:44.000 --> 00:54:45.280
So that'd be it, yeah.

00:54:45.440 --> 00:54:47.519
I said connection in our connection's massive.

00:54:47.840 --> 00:54:50.480
You know, it's the way I see it is kind of reversing.00:54:50.880 --> 00:54:53.519


Look at the behaviours that you do in addiction, you've got to flip it.00:54:53.599 --> 00:54:54.960


Yeah, so it's looking at right.00:54:55.039 --> 00:54:57.840


What does that so you're isolated in addiction?00:54:58.000 --> 00:54:59.920


So I need to be connected, you know.00:55:00.079 --> 00:55:06.880


I'm dishonest in in addiction, so I need to be honest, and just flipping every single thing and just trying to implement it in your day-to-day life.00:55:07.119 --> 00:55:12.239


One of the good sayings that I like from from the fellowships from AA and CA, etc.00:55:12.880 --> 00:55:22.400


Um, there was a couple, but just for today, yeah, just for today is a massive one, and I don't talk about this enough in how much it helped me early on in my recovery, in my last recovery.00:55:22.559 --> 00:55:24.960


Things can get hard a day, it can feel like a long time.00:55:25.039 --> 00:55:27.519


You can break it down, you can say an hour, ten minutes, whatever.00:55:27.679 --> 00:55:31.519


But I said it to myself plenty of times, and I said it more so on the bad days.00:55:31.760 --> 00:55:33.760


Just for today, you know, tomorrow's a new day.00:55:33.840 --> 00:55:40.239


I'm not promised tomorrow, I'm not gonna think about tomorrow yet, but let me just get through today if that's where and what I need to do.00:55:40.559 --> 00:55:41.360


And that's one of them.00:55:41.440 --> 00:55:44.639


But the the this next one is being willing, open and honest.00:55:45.039 --> 00:55:58.480


And obviously, anyone from fellowships will hear them a lot, and I don't talk about the fellowships too much, but someone said to me early on, practice being willing, open and honest, you know, in not just in recovery, in all aspects of your life and watch how it improves, you know.00:55:58.639 --> 00:56:00.960


It is for people who are even in addiction, I suppose.00:56:01.039 --> 00:56:04.719


It's it's a real good um philosophy to live by, I think.00:56:04.960 --> 00:56:05.519


Yeah, absolutely.00:56:05.599 --> 00:56:13.360


I think fellowships can sometimes get a bit of a bad rap sometimes, but I definitely think there's things that anybody can take away from it despite being in addiction, not or not.00:56:13.519 --> 00:56:16.400


And yeah, I think that willing, what was it, willing?00:56:16.639 --> 00:56:17.280


Open and honest.00:56:17.519 --> 00:56:18.800


Willing, open and honest, yeah.00:56:18.960 --> 00:56:20.400


I think that that's really good, though.00:56:20.639 --> 00:56:23.360


Finn, thank you so much for joining me on Believing People.00:56:23.440 --> 00:56:26.559


I've got a series of questions that I like to end all my podcast on.00:56:26.719 --> 00:56:30.480


And my favourite first question to you is uh what is your favourite word?00:56:30.960 --> 00:56:31.760


Favourite word?00:56:31.920 --> 00:56:39.920


Yeah, uh probably uh favourite word.00:56:44.000 --> 00:56:44.960


I don't think I've got one.00:56:45.119 --> 00:56:45.679


Really?00:57:00.079 --> 00:57:01.679


What's my least favourite word?00:57:07.199 --> 00:57:08.639


C U N T probably.00:57:08.960 --> 00:57:10.559


Tell me something that excites you.00:57:11.119 --> 00:57:12.079


Something that excites me.00:57:12.559 --> 00:57:13.119


I can answer that.00:57:14.719 --> 00:57:18.239


Boxing, fishing, football, yeah.00:57:18.559 --> 00:57:21.760


Tell me something that drains your energy, or something that bores you.00:57:22.559 --> 00:57:26.000


Paperwork writing and all that boring stuff.00:57:26.320 --> 00:57:28.000


What sound or noise do you love?00:57:29.280 --> 00:57:32.159


Sound sound of guitar acoustic guitars and water.00:57:32.559 --> 00:57:34.159


What sound or noise do you hear?00:57:44.639 --> 00:57:47.760


When a scru uh a fork or a spoon scratches a plate.00:57:49.280 --> 00:57:50.239


I think that's probably mine as well.00:57:50.400 --> 00:57:51.679


Oh, when collary rubber together.00:57:57.280 --> 00:57:58.719


Yeah, I can feel it on my teeth.00:57:59.360 --> 00:58:01.280


When do you feel most like yourself?00:58:09.119 --> 00:58:13.039


Probably when I'm just I'd like to just I've just got a fish a new fish tank.00:58:15.920 --> 00:58:21.360


Change colour on the fish tank, turn light or something, just uh it is, yeah.00:58:22.320 --> 00:58:24.000


What profession would you like to attempt?00:58:25.679 --> 00:58:27.679


Never really said this to many people, but acting.00:58:31.199 --> 00:58:32.880


What profession would you not like to do?00:58:39.440 --> 00:58:41.440


Guessing something with a lot of paperwork.00:58:41.840 --> 00:58:44.960


Paperwork, yeah, but this is gonna be a quiet and I don't want to offend anyone.00:58:45.039 --> 00:58:48.719


I did it for years in my life, but construction, I would like to go back into construction.00:58:49.119 --> 00:58:49.760


That's understandable.00:58:49.840 --> 00:58:51.119


I think when you've done it before, yeah.00:58:51.360 --> 00:58:52.480


I always say this about cleaning.00:58:52.559 --> 00:58:53.360


I used to be a cleaner.00:58:53.920 --> 00:58:58.320


I'm not knocking I'm not knocking cleaning by any means, but God I absolutely hated it.00:58:58.480 --> 00:58:58.639


Yeah.00:58:58.880 --> 00:59:03.599


And lastly, if heaven exists, what would you like to hear God say when you arrive at the Pearley gates?00:59:03.760 --> 00:59:04.320


Hmm.00:59:04.880 --> 00:59:14.239


That's a good question, that probably just that I've been a good person and and I've tried to help people.00:59:15.039 --> 00:59:16.239


Good question that I like that one.00:59:16.320 --> 00:59:16.960


It's quite deep, really.00:59:17.679 --> 00:59:19.360


Something to ponder on your way back to Birdley.00:59:19.760 --> 00:59:19.920


Yeah.00:59:20.159 --> 00:59:22.719


Finn, thank you so much for joining me on Believe in People.00:59:22.960 --> 00:59:24.000


No, thank you for having me.00:59:24.159 --> 00:59:29.280


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