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This is a renewed original recording.
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Hello and welcome to Believe in People, a two-time Radio Academy Award nominated and British Podcast Award-winning series about all things addiction, recovery, and stigma.
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My name is Matthew Butler and I'm your host, or as I like to say, your facilitator.
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Today I'm joined by Neil Fairbank, founder of the National Recovery Games, a national family-friendly celebration of recovery that brings thousands of people together from team challenges, improvements to health, and building communities, proving recovery can be visible and connected.
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Neil shares his own journey from heroin addiction, homelessness and despair to long-term recovery and how the games create hope, belonging, and a reason to keep going.
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I was homeless, I was injecting, smoking crack cocaine, considering taking my life was a frequent thought attempts of my life had occurred as well.
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My children had been removed, I lost who I was, which I think was the most important, lost sight of who I wanted to be, and yeah, I think it sounds like that is at its worst.
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I don't think it can describe it.
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I'm just trying to think.
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What attracted you to it, maybe to begin with?
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It was it it was it was a bizarre one.
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So I'm sorry I grew up in Doncaster, a very small mining village, everybody knew each other, there was an amazing sort of sense of community.
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I mean, you didn't even lock your doors, you know, we just we just walked into each other's houses and as such.
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But I don't know, at one point there seemed to be a very sort of anti-anti-drug community, and I was I was one of those, you know, I'm never gonna do anything like that.
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It didn't it didn't I didn't keep that for long at 12 year old.
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The there seemed to be a shift within my sort of peer and and and friend group, and at 12, you know, tried drinking, sniffing glue, aerosols, cannabis came in, amphetamins, ls, lsd, probably about 13, 14.
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So I I kind of went from this being really anti-drugs to I fucking love this.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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If if if if if I'm being if I'm being real and I I don't know, I think grow growing up I never really felt like I fitted in anywhere, and that the minute I tried drugs, all that kind of just sort of yeah, like I I found myself, I guess, at first.
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It's interesting you say about like the anti-drug movement, because I think as well, especially at that at that age you are now, uh the age you was then, sorry, the idea of you know don't do something makes it more appealing, doesn't it?
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So the more the more you're told not to do something.
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I wonder if like if they didn't have the anti-drug messaging, if it wouldn't have even been as appealing to you.
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Do you know No, I I totally get that.
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So the anti-drug messages at the time, and I mean I it was probably 89-90 when I when I first sort of tried drugs with the with the old fried egg in a in a frying pan, and this is your brains, and people come into school, and you know, if you do this and just one hit, you will, you know, your brain will turn to mush.
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And then I tried, I think I tried cannabis for the first time, and I was like, they've fucking lied to me.
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Sorry about my language, but I was like, wow, they've they've they've lied to me all along.
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So they if they've lied to me about that one, ah, okay, yeah, they've probably lied to me about them all.
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So really naively, I went on this this this journey to try every drug that was available to me at that particular point, and it's sort of escalated from there, really.
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So, you know, bunking off school, smoking weed round the back of the the the sports shed, sniffing tipex dinner in class, you know, everywhere, everywhere we could where we we we found an outlet to sort of just feel a little bit different.
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We we we sort of did that.
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That then progressed into into clubbing, which is it's tends to be the you know, having worked in services, this seems to be like a a progression of of a of a lot of people.
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So yeah, clubbing, raving, ecstasy, etc.
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Sort of mixing with you know other older people.
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So I was out clubbing from 15.
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I went to my first rave at 15.
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My mum being the sort of person that she she she is and knew what sort of person I was.
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I don't do know if you tell me no, I'm I'm gonna do it anyway.
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She she knew I were getting into that scene, and my uncle at the time was was already very into it.
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So I think you know, she thought in her best wisdom, if he's gonna do it, I'd rather and go with my brother.
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And he introduced me to uh to another world as well.
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You know, I'm not blaming him in any way, shape, or form.
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Of course, yeah.
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He was part of that, and it was nice to be introduced to that with with somebody that was that was already there.
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I obviously chose a very different path and escalated to you know from the after parties, and and I always remember sort of my first hit of heroin.
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I'd tried to source it for such a long time because early 90s it it wasn't really available in in the small mining villages.
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I probably knew a handful of people who probably had used it.
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There was none of this, you didn't really see the impacts of heroin, if if I'm being honest.
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So I mean you can't walk through a town centre or a high street now without seeing where you may potentially sort of end up.
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The closest we we had to that was like the film Train Spotting.
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Yeah, no, that has to be fair, that that film itself has come up quite a lot since doing this podcast series, actually, because it's a very realistic of what it's like, and it's not often that Hollywood or movies get it that spot on.
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And I think as well, looking at where that was set, I can almost see maybe some of the reflections in in you know being Doncaster, a small man in town, how that how that would how that would connect as well.
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So I mean you just thought, you know, that ain't gonna happen to me.
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I'm alright, I've tried all the other drugs, I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm fine.
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I mean I had a I had a house and an older girlfriend at at sort of uh 17 17, so I left home at sort of 15, six, sixteen, and things just progressed and I thought, you know, if if I'm if I'm gonna be good at anything, I want to be good because I didn't do well at school.
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I thought I'm gonna be good at drugs, you know, and I'd I'd start I'd used to make pipes and bongs and all and sell those to friends, and that progressed into dealing at school, and then because I had a home, I came involved with crowds that obviously wanted to looking back now, exploit that that particular situation at the time I thought, oh, this is great, everybody wants to know me, everyone's coming to my house.
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Um so yeah, I was selling sort of weed and stuff from sort of the age of 18.
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And and then when I finally got on heroin, sort of came to the to the streets, and I was like, right, I'm having I'm having this, I tried it, and it felt like all my Christmases had come at once.
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That first that first hit.
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I I threw up violently, but it still felt I don't know, somebody had just I've been waiting for this blanket to be wrapped around me for my whole life, and it had finally come, and it was like, you know what, life's gonna be okay now.
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Yeah.
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There's a couple of things to unpick there, because I think what's interesting is you it especially towards the those younger years, you said you never really felt like you fit in.
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Yeah.
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But then having friends who was also using substances creates like that connection, doesn't it?
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I suppose.
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And and it's almost like you know, you often hear people saying about finding the tribe and stuff like that, and and that sounds like you kind of did.
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Yeah.
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Do you think that maybe pushed you into using substances more so because that gives you that connection that you maybe didn't have prior to without without a doubt?
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I mean, drug using crowds are easy to get into.
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Yeah.
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That they welcome you with with with open arms.
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So yeah, I'd I've I've I've fitted into that scene really, really easily and and felt felt comfortable and almost at home in in in in doing that.
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Yeah.
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I get it, because another thing is you mentioned ego, and that's always really interesting because I think the amount of people that I mean with we talked about train spotting, you also using heroin, but looking at that thinking that won't happen to me.
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How many people do you know start using these substances like heroin and don't think they'll be on the receiving effects of the withdrawals in the way that that they may see other people doing it?
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Or when you I always say it's interesting working in a service like this because the amount of times people don't turn up for those early appointments, and I often wonder if they've come in, sat in the reception area, or they've walked towards the building and seen other people who are much further on in that journey.
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I thought, well, I'm not as bad as that.
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Yeah.
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So I clearly don't need help, but it's like I'm not as bad as that yet, is often what I think.
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But it is that ego of I'll never get to that point, so therefore I don't need that sort of help.
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Yeah.
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And that sounds like that was your experience as well.
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And that that was me, yeah.
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I was like, I've got good friends, I'd I I'd always remained in in in work, even though I didn't behave well at school.
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I weren't I'm not that I weren't I didn't feel like I were daft, I didn't really get any qualifications as such at that particular point.
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So I thought I were yeah, bulletproof.
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You know, I can I I can do this, I can survive in this world, and it's it it's where I wanted to, where I wanted to be at that particular time.
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Did heroin become your primary substance, would you say at that point?
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Was that the one you'd was using most?
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Yeah, yeah.
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How did that differ to the other substances that you'd use?
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You talked about using cannabis LSD.
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I suppose my my with my peer group, and this is where I I suppose I've I should have I should have noticed the mark difference.
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So they were able to, you know, weekends do things recreationally.
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I I just always wanted more, and and you know, as they also say one's not enough, you know.
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It's it's I just I just escalated, I suppose.
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And my friend group at that particular time just distanced themselves from me, knowing now because we've we've obviously reconnected and and as such, and part of their reason were is that you know they they felt I could have dragged them along with me and they they saw where I would you know where I was going at that particular point, and at that particular point, you know, again I've progressed from selling weed to to selling heroin and and and crack and as and as such.
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So looking back, I don't blame them um really for giving me a bit of a wide berth.
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How did that move to obviously you early on you said that it was quite hard to even source heroin where you were from in Doncaster, then you've gone on to be the person selling it.
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How did that sort of come?
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I I guess it became a bit of an explosion.
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So from a handful of people within the village that you could you could you could you could mart to just about almost it felt like everybody almost I went to school with and and yeah, anywhere in b in between it was it was kind of an explosion, it just sort of took over the the the the village and the that the surrounding area.
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So from it being really scar scarce to get to get hold of it it suddenly became not not so.
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And you know, I wasn't doing it on any great larger scale or anything, it was it was more or less enough to kind of I suppose feed my feed my own habit.
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Well it kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger, so I needed to sell more and more and more and do dodgy dealings, but yeah, it just I don't know, it just seemed to happen over over overnight, I guess.
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It was I mean the I didn't even even have a realisation that I was an addict and probably till about 18 months into to my heroin use.
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I thought I had a handle on it, you know.
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It was probably I probably did a full year or so, just you know, every two to three three days.
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I I didn't see myself as being sort of physically dependent on it.
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And I think I had the light bulb moment where we went on holiday to just a caravan site, North Wales, and I thought I just couldn't sell.
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I I was I was actively seeking some actively seeking something to the point where you know I was going into places where I probably shouldn't have been, and we managed we did manage to score chemists, and and I know it's just come to that realisation, it's like wow, it's got old it's got me.
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Yeah, I'm interested to know a little bit more about the the hierarchy of of drug dealing because I mean I've I don't think I've ever really explored it much in this series before, if at all.
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But obviously, for you to sell it on, you have to get it from somewhere else.
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And do you buy it for cheaper, sell it on for more?
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Do you have to buy it in a bulk and then sell it on?
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Talk me for a little bit about what drug dealing heroin's like.
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And it it it kind of it it escalated, I guess.
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So it as I said, it sort of started with um sort of weed and probably LSD in in school and such, and then you know.
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I think me not really feeling like I sort of fit in.
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I had lots of different groups and friends.
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I I skipped between friend groups, so I I soon got to know people.
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I always looked a little bit older than a lot of my friends as well, which always helped.
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So I was always the first one to go and knock on some shady dealers dealer's door or give somebody a bell.
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But it it basically began with probably buying like a a quarter of an ounce a quarter of an ounce, which in in weed terms I'd sell two-thirds of that and I got mine for free.
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And it was just a small friends group, and then it progressed and it progressed and it progressed to yeah, I was buying in bulk, I was able to make more of a more of a profit.
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You know, you start so as you're doing that, you're mixing with more people, yeah, treading on other people's toes, moving in on people's patches, sort of thing.
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Yeah, yeah, and that that that brought about some really uh yeah traumatized some horrific yeah, horrific stuff.
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So yeah, um sorry, um I'm just I'd I'm just just thinking of one particular moment where we'd hide, I I guess, you know, let's let's own it.
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Sort of undercut a few people and trod on too many too many toes, and that resulted in a gang of people turning up at me up at my house with with sort of knives and axes and yeah, well, I've got mine sort of children in my arms, changing them for ready for bed, sort of bursting with yeah, knives and hammers and all sorts.
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And and unfortunately that weren't the first occasion that that that happened, you know, you just brush it off and you think it's at the time absolutely shit myself, and looking back, it it it makes me really nervous now because I don't see myself as being that that particular person, but I I kind of I suppose you brush yourself off, you get up and you see it as almost a occupational hazard.
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How were those experiences sort of like affected your children?
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Have you ever talked about that?
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Was they even aware that it was happening?
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Or was it very oblivious?
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They were at a very young age, so my stepdaughter at the time was what was four.
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My my son would have been about 14 months old, so I was literally upstairs changing his nappy when the front door came through.
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And yeah, so my my my children were later removed from from from my care at that particular um a couple of more years sort of um down the line, and again that was just another you you'd have thought that would have been the point where I think let's put your ideas up in hill and sort things out, that just escalated even f even further into that that that life.
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Because that's the madness of addiction, because if I was to experience what you've just described there, I feel like that would be enough for me to think, right, I need to get out of this now, I need to stop this now.
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But for you, like you said, you you ended up getting almost deeper into it then.
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Why why is that the case?
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I I don't know, and I think it were almost and I I think I touched on it before, it's like I'd I felt I'd found my place and I thought I'd I'd kind of come to terms was this was my lot.
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You know, this is this is my purpose, this is my function, this is what and it's just about not living, it's it's it's sort of it's it's it's surviving and it it carried on for a for for a number of years.
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So to to get to the point where obviously your children are removed, it sounds like it escalates.
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I mean, we we said earlier what what did addiction look like at its worst, and you listed off a myriad of things.
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How did it get to that point then where children were removed, you were experiencing homelessness?
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Because at the beginning, you had an older partner, you had a house, things seemed quite stable for you.
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How did it escalate to the point of losing all of that?
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And it and it's bizarre because it you know I've I've I I managed to maintain almost paid employment throughout the the entirety of my addiction and and dealing as well.
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I mean, there was there was an advantage to being employed and and dealing because it meant you give me another arena to sell drugs in as as as well.
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And I predominantly worked in sales, so I I sold mobile phones sort of on a on a on a nine to five and and drugs in in in in between.
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The majority of the drugs that people use in sales were were sort of uppers.
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I was probably the only heroin user there, so I I kind of stood out a little bit, but obviously eventually the the the employers corned on, didn't particularly like what we were doing, and then so from from losing our job progressed even even further, you know, not paying bills.
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I did a bit of sort of you know, getting loans here, there and everywhere, because we had work, we just accumulated this vast amount of of debt, and then unbeknown to me, the the grandparents of our of our children put in action in place and removed the children from from our care.
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So within a week we were evicted from the the the property we're living in and a care order was put in place for our children to be housed with their maternal grandparents, yeah.
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I'm just trying to obviously remind I'm just trying to imagine obviously what what that experience would have been like.
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I feel like even that though wasn't necessarily the rock bottom for you to to make the changes.
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No.
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Where where does it go?
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And what really is the ultimate rock bottom moment then where you think, right, I've lost my job, I've lost my home, I've lost my kids, I've got drug dealers banging down my door.
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At what point, if that's not it, does the light bulb come on?
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Does the the the switch click?
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Do you know?
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I I think I've probably had a couple of light switch click, click, click moments, but it was almost like it were on a dimmer switch.
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Yeah, so it's just like being slowly turned up as opposed to being.
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The minute I turned it on, it was just slowly, slowly dimmed.
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So like as you're right, you know, my children were removed, and I'm like, shit, I can't I can't have this.
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And you know, if anything I've always seen as being a core value of mine is I wanted to be a good a good a good parent.
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And you know, I think when you're in addiction, you convince yourselves even though you're an addict, you know, we still took the children on holiday, we you know, we we did we did things with them the basic needs of being met, yeah.
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The basic needs are being met, but then that's another just bullshit excuse to carry on kind of doing what you're doing.
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And looking back, I carry a lot of sort of issues around.
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Yeah, I understand that.
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And I do talk to my children well, the w the one of my children that were particularly uh affected by that.
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And yeah, so I think the and and again the attacks and stuff just just kind of continue to happen.
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I was kidnapped a number of t a couple of times, held at knife point, still didn't you know, still carry still sort of carried on.
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I think the w the the one moment I remember is and and at this time I was sort of just sleeping wherever I could.
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I often called a black taxi cabin on a local scrapyard, my bed for the night.
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It it just felt safe, self-safe there away from everybody.
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But just down the road from that was uh was a railway bridge.
00:19:30.480 --> 00:19:37.359
And I'd looked at it a number of times and thought, if I'm gonna go, that's that's where I'm that's where I'm uh where I'm gonna go.
00:19:39.119 --> 00:19:46.799
And I one particular night I decided I were gonna do it, and I I sat on that, sat on that, sat on that bridge.
00:19:46.880 --> 00:19:52.400
I was I was I don't know in my head, I think throwing yourself off the bridge would have been enough, but I thought I had to wait for a train to come.
00:19:53.119 --> 00:20:03.279
And I think that that that weight, I don't know, something switched, and it was like as as as dark and as deep as I were, and I was 99% certain that that was gonna be my my last moments.
00:20:03.680 --> 00:20:11.039
Just something came over me that you know this ain't you, and let's let's try and do something about that.
00:20:11.519 --> 00:20:16.160
And that very next morning I I presented in the drug and alcohol services.
00:20:16.240 --> 00:20:19.920
Again, the light switch had gone on, attended the drug and alcohol services.
00:20:20.319 --> 00:20:21.839
Had you not been to one before that point?
00:20:22.160 --> 00:20:22.559
Never been to one.
00:20:22.880 --> 00:20:23.680
Never been to one before.
00:20:23.920 --> 00:20:24.079
Okay.
00:20:24.640 --> 00:20:25.680
Never been to one before.
00:20:25.759 --> 00:20:38.240
I mean, this was probably 1990 or something, something along those lines, and drugs uh drug and alcohol services weren't particularly beacons of shining hope as they as as they are now.
00:20:38.480 --> 00:20:48.559
Yeah, I remember walking through that door, and you know, there were posters there about because of the AIDS epidemic, and you know, and you know, take drugs, you'll die, and and everything else.
00:20:48.960 --> 00:20:54.960
And I've gone in and I've explained to this this this woman that I'd been sat on a bit bridge the night before.
00:20:55.119 --> 00:20:56.160
I was I was homeless.
00:20:56.240 --> 00:20:59.839
I just laid it all out, laid it all out, never really shared that with anybody before.
00:21:00.640 --> 00:21:05.200
And I was told they're there, people often do feel a bit in the dumps.
00:21:06.319 --> 00:21:10.480
And there is a there is a waiting list for methadone treatment, and it's 18 months long.
00:21:10.720 --> 00:21:11.279
Oh wow.
00:21:11.519 --> 00:21:15.680
We we will write to you when an appointment becomes available.
00:21:15.839 --> 00:21:17.920
And I just felt 18 months is ridiculous.
00:21:18.160 --> 00:21:19.839
I think some of the waiting times now were bad.
00:21:20.079 --> 00:21:21.920
Do you know 18 months is ridiculous?
00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:23.279
But that's that's that's what it were.
00:21:23.359 --> 00:21:28.079
It was it was 18 months, and just to have all my feelings totally dismissed.
00:21:28.319 --> 00:21:28.799
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:21:29.200 --> 00:21:35.359
You know, I I was I was this close to throwing myself in front of a train and to be told there, we all feel like that sometimes.
00:21:35.599 --> 00:21:39.599
And the fact that they told that they were gonna write to me and I'd explained I was homeless.
00:21:40.319 --> 00:21:42.079
Yeah, where are you going to write to?
00:21:42.160 --> 00:21:46.319
Yeah, and I was told, Well, you just gonna have to keep popping your head in to see where you are on the list.
00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:52.000
And this the one service in Doncaster, and I don't know if you know Doncaster, but it's a huge area, it was eight eight miles away.
00:21:52.240 --> 00:21:52.559
Yeah, yeah.
00:21:52.880 --> 00:21:54.559
So it wasn't in walking distance.
00:21:54.640 --> 00:21:59.759
It I very rarely ventured into the into the sort of the town centre, so that that dimmed line.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:09.359
Just went down again and I just thought sod it and I've probably carried on doing what I was doing for at least another uh two, two and a half years.
00:22:09.680 --> 00:22:15.119
Um and then a service opened in our local village.
00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:15.599
Okay.
00:22:16.000 --> 00:22:17.119
A recovery hub.
00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:23.920
Uh so I thought I'd give it another go, and that's where my I guess recovery journey started.
00:22:24.640 --> 00:22:26.720
What was your experience of Mephrodon then?
00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:28.160
It it saved my life.
00:22:28.240 --> 00:22:33.759
I I don't think I realistically don't think I could have I could have done that journey w without it.
00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:40.319
So when I was eventually prescribed, and and again, so prescribing regimes were very different back back then as well.
00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:44.480
Doncaster had a a cap at 65 65 mils.
00:22:44.720 --> 00:22:44.880
Okay.
00:22:45.519 --> 00:22:50.720
Very, very rarely, and there was like exceptional circumstances if you would be prescribed over 65 mils.
00:22:51.039 --> 00:22:55.200
At that time I were probably using about 160 pounds worth of heroin a day.
00:22:55.440 --> 00:22:56.240
Oh wow.
00:22:56.720 --> 00:23:07.279
So 65 mils sort of took took the their job, but didn't really but didn't really address withdrawal symptoms in the way that it should do.
00:23:07.519 --> 00:23:07.759
No.
00:23:08.000 --> 00:23:12.559
The one thing that this this hub did do differently was it was they introduced me to group work.
00:23:13.359 --> 00:23:19.440
And there was a parameter to get the method on is you had to attend so many group work sessions before, and so I weren't a fan.
00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:21.119
Fuck that, I don't want to.
00:23:21.279 --> 00:23:23.519
I just I just want my medication.
00:23:23.680 --> 00:23:29.519
I remember being sat down in a room and told to you know describe myself in relation to a jelly baby.
00:23:30.559 --> 00:23:31.839
I love those sheets now.
00:23:32.240 --> 00:23:32.799
Don't get me wrong.
00:23:32.960 --> 00:23:35.039
And I was just like, what the hell is going on?
00:23:35.359 --> 00:23:36.160
What the hell is this?
00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:47.039
I'm sat here with all my old schoolmates, I'm rattling his tits off, and it's like that there ain't a jelly bean on jelly baby on there that I can that can really describe how I'm feeling right at this very, very minute.
00:23:47.279 --> 00:23:50.400
But I I eventually I got into it, you know.
00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:51.599
And I like I like this.
00:23:51.759 --> 00:23:55.119
No one's ever really asked me how I'm feeling before or what my thoughts are.
00:23:55.680 --> 00:23:58.400
And I I don't know.
00:23:58.559 --> 00:24:09.680
I like I I do think there's something powerful about a group environment because I think looking at your experience and the experience of a lot of people, when you are in addiction, nobody cares about what you have to say.
00:24:09.839 --> 00:24:15.119
No, and then you're suddenly in a group where your voice matters, and there's something really powerful about that.
00:24:15.200 --> 00:24:28.000
So when you do see people that are really anti-group, I'm like, just give it a go because you might find your voice a little bit in there, and the amount of people that end up enjoying it as well and find it you know therapeutic in the way that it should be.
00:24:28.240 --> 00:24:29.200
I think it is important.
00:24:29.519 --> 00:24:30.000
I'm amazed.
00:24:30.079 --> 00:24:33.759
I mean, I I later went on to manage all the group work programmes within Doncaster.
00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:34.400
That's it, yeah.
00:24:34.640 --> 00:24:36.400
So I I can't believe on about that.
00:24:36.559 --> 00:24:37.440
That's a proper full circle.
00:24:37.920 --> 00:24:39.200
I know and and enough.
00:24:39.279 --> 00:24:43.599
So I went from don't put me in one of these to actually everybody should at least give it a try.
00:24:43.759 --> 00:24:55.920
I know it's not everybody's kind of cooking the tea, but going from, as you said, being disillusioned, disowned, not listened to, to actually somebody not only wants to listen to me, they're really interested in what I've got to say.
00:24:56.000 --> 00:24:57.359
And that was a powerful moment for me.
00:24:58.000 --> 00:25:03.359
Tell me a little bit then about what how how long was you on a methadone programme for?
00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:17.519
So, I mean, just before I got to the methodone programme, and again we were talking, so I'd been tested of hepatitis C, they'd picked up that I'd been in contact with it, so they picked up the antibodies, my my arms, my skin, everything was shocking, and I'd collapsed veins, I'd run out of places.
00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:19.519
Did that from sharing like drug paraphernalia?
00:25:19.920 --> 00:25:20.720
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:25:20.720 --> 00:25:22.559
There weren't many needle exchanges back then.
00:25:22.799 --> 00:25:26.559
I used to run a makeshift needle exchange because it also helped whilst I was selling heroin.
00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:29.839
You could pick up a bag and take a couple of needles away with you whilst you watched it.
00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:31.200
You made yourself a little one-stop shop.
00:25:31.599 --> 00:25:37.759
Yeah, well, the the closest needle exchange was eight miles away in that in that same drug and alcohol um service.
00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:45.440
So, you know, we always had cars, so we we'd go, we'd fill the boot up and you know, we'd we'd bring them back into the village, but people still shared.
00:25:45.519 --> 00:25:47.519
There's there still weren't enough, you know.
00:25:47.599 --> 00:25:50.160
I I shared spoons, I shared needles, tourniques.
00:25:51.039 --> 00:25:52.960
It's it's just yeah, how we did things.
00:25:53.039 --> 00:25:57.039
So I had a hepatitis C scare, and my my arms, veins were absolutely shocking.
00:25:57.119 --> 00:25:59.519
I was in really, really poor, poor health.
00:25:59.759 --> 00:26:09.839
So the the 65mm methadone, and I mean I started this and as as terrible as it were, and um I think part of who I am, I always seem to be in a rush to do things.
00:26:09.920 --> 00:26:17.839
I think that's a typical addict, in all fairness, but I wanted to sort of do a massive quick reduction because I just wanted to be off and off and away.
00:26:18.160 --> 00:26:21.440
But 14 months, I I gradually reduced off the method.
00:26:21.759 --> 00:26:22.960
That's quite a short period of time though.
00:26:23.519 --> 00:26:26.799
I've worked here for 10 years and there's still people coming in that was coming in, do you know?
00:26:27.039 --> 00:26:27.920
I was years ago.
00:26:28.079 --> 00:26:31.519
I was determined and and and again it was it was it was part of the process.
00:26:31.759 --> 00:26:35.839
So when you went in the chemist, then there weren't private rooms, there weren't consultation rooms.
00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:39.680
You often had to wait outside until the customers had other customers had gone.
00:26:39.920 --> 00:26:41.680
Oh what was the tells us?
00:26:41.839 --> 00:26:44.640
Yeah, so like oh you're one of the methadone ones, go wait outside.
00:26:44.720 --> 00:26:50.160
So everybody, everybody knew it was a small mining community, so everybody knew who you were and why you why you were there.
00:26:50.240 --> 00:26:54.799
So that that it felt like a ball and chain me having to go to that chemist every single day.
00:26:54.960 --> 00:27:01.119
And I had to go every day because I live I still lived with other addicts, so I weren't allowed to take any any any any home.
00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:04.880
So I was still living with active injectors whilst going through my methadone programme.
00:27:05.039 --> 00:27:14.640
So I had to attend at the chemist daily, and it just felt like a Was you like absent from illicit substances at the time, or was you because it must have been hard to be on a methadone programme be around people that were using?
00:27:14.799 --> 00:27:20.000
It it yeah, it was it was really I mean at one point I was like, Oh yeah, I'll even like you jack up and stuff.
00:27:20.960 --> 00:27:21.680
I've got this.
00:27:21.759 --> 00:27:41.440
I've I've got this, but no, I slowly had to distance myself away and I did get my own my own property, but so yeah, so about to methadone 14 months and then to I got down to like 20 mils and then I did a a month's uh subatex to sort of come off of and was that the only time you've ever been on a methodone programme as well?
00:27:41.599 --> 00:27:48.400
Yeah, that's really good that yeah, because some people can be on off it, on it, off it, yeah, back and forth with it.
00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:56.799
So something just shifted in me, and I think once I'd once I'd got that methadone and it made me sort of it removed a lot of the age to go out and and and do that.
00:27:56.960 --> 00:28:01.680
I didn't feel 100%, but it it just removed the urge for me to carry on and the cravings.
00:28:02.079 --> 00:28:03.839
And I don't know, something switched in me.
00:28:03.920 --> 00:28:07.200
I was just determined that this were it, I was going to do it.
00:28:07.359 --> 00:28:13.359
I was offered the opportunity to to volunteer within that that recovery hub and things just went went from there.
00:28:13.680 --> 00:28:16.160
What did recovery actually look like for you then in those early days?
00:28:16.240 --> 00:28:20.960
And I don't mean like the the idea of it, but like the reality of of recovery.
00:28:21.279 --> 00:28:30.559
Oh it were tough, it were tough because with within the village there weren't there weren't there weren't many of us, if if if any and if they were they they they sort of distanced themselves.
00:28:30.960 --> 00:28:35.839
The only other groups you you could go to were again we're in the town, we're in the town centre.
00:28:36.079 --> 00:28:41.519
I I tried NA and AA and the usual 12-step things for me.
00:28:41.599 --> 00:28:46.000
I felt those groups were really quite toxic at the time, and uh it just it just wasn't for me.
00:28:46.160 --> 00:28:52.559
I found myself you know, I used to I used to get wasted to go in into a into into a room.
00:28:52.640 --> 00:28:59.039
I don't know why, it just filled me so much anxiety and all that hugging and spirituality, and it just weren't me at that particular at that particular time.
00:28:59.519 --> 00:29:03.039
So I started my own, I started my own group in in the village.
00:29:03.279 --> 00:29:10.480
And so part of my role as a volunteer was around representing the the the needs and the views of of people accessing services.
00:29:10.799 --> 00:29:14.000
And I just ended up in this community meeting, it were bizarre.
00:29:14.240 --> 00:29:19.599
So the local youth club, the guys who ran the local youth club, which I'd been barred from as a child.
00:29:20.160 --> 00:29:21.680
Another full circle, yeah.
00:29:21.839 --> 00:29:28.480
Well I it it's been underused and it's been and I just piped up and I said, Would you give me the keys for a just one day a week?
00:29:28.799 --> 00:29:29.599
And they're like, What for?
00:29:29.680 --> 00:29:31.920
I said I want to open it up for people in recovery.
00:29:32.160 --> 00:29:35.519
Yeah, there's an IT suite there, there's a sports hall, there's a cafe.
00:29:35.759 --> 00:29:36.400
What what for?
00:29:36.480 --> 00:29:42.319
Just just a safe place for people to come meet, have a chat, you know, get online if they if they need to, a bit of a kick about.
00:29:43.039 --> 00:29:45.839
And I didn't for a minute think they'd say, Yeah, here it's keys.
00:29:46.640 --> 00:29:49.519
So they said they did, so they gave me the keys to the place.
00:29:49.599 --> 00:30:05.599
And so before you before you know it, I was running this yeah, this like peer support dropping session, and then people started from the treatment centre started coming to us um in instead, and the National Treatment Agency, and it just it sort of yeah just grows, doesn't it?
00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:06.799
Just grow from there.
00:30:06.880 --> 00:30:13.599
So there wasn't really a recovery community and and I felt that the one that was where there were wasn't necessarily for me.
00:30:14.240 --> 00:30:20.319
And I and I suppose that's where I kind of started on this journey that I wanted to change that that climate and that culture within within Doncaster.
00:30:21.759 --> 00:30:29.680
How do we get from the point of you you know opening up this this youth centre for this to the recovery games then?
00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:40.000
Okay, so I'd so from the from the youth centre and from sat my own group, I then started doing a lot of work with the local commissioning teams.
00:30:40.319 --> 00:30:44.160
They decided in their wisdom they wanted to pay me to do to do more of that.
00:30:45.039 --> 00:30:55.359
So I was I became the I suppose it would have been back now, it would be called the Lived Experience Coordinator, I was the service user coordinator there, but it was still all very tokenistic.
00:30:55.440 --> 00:31:01.599
So I'd prior to that I'd been wheeled into all these commissioning meetings and just so they could tick a box to say that they'd consulted with the drug users.
00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:03.920
Yeah, well sometimes it feels like that, doesn't it?
00:31:04.160 --> 00:31:05.039
Very tokenistic.
00:31:05.279 --> 00:31:17.359
Yeah, and you know, I'm not saying I look really polished now, but if if you can imagine 24, you know, 25, 26 years ago wheeling me into a board meeting to sit in front of all these suits and explain what's what what what's happening.
00:31:17.599 --> 00:31:20.160
Yeah, it it was it was it was a difficult time.
00:31:20.240 --> 00:31:21.839
But anyway, so they they they they employed me.
00:31:21.920 --> 00:31:42.400
So I basically was travelling around Doncaster helping set up similar groups for families and and and peers, and and through that, I've I've just obviously collated a lot of experiences, and I think one thing that we we did really find is that as mining villagers we always had a great sense of community, and I think over a decade we'd lost that.
00:31:42.720 --> 00:31:49.519
People started locking the doors because everybody started using drugs and stealing, and you couldn't trust your neighbours any anymore.
00:31:49.599 --> 00:31:51.680
And there was like there was a there was a craving for that.
00:31:51.759 --> 00:31:55.680
You know, how do we how do we get sort of re-re-sort of connected?
00:31:56.160 --> 00:32:03.920
And and I was just playing with the idea and working with the groups that I were group, and I but didn't really formulate the idea until the the London Olympics actually sparked it.
00:32:04.240 --> 00:32:19.920
So for the London Olympics, there was a there was a great emphasis on community engagement and volunteering, and a lot of the groups I felt with said they'd like to do that, but they didn't really feel safe or comfortable in any particular other environments that are currently there.
00:32:20.319 --> 00:32:33.119
Now, having been a person that's been you know, I've been beaten by vigilante groups just by the fact I'm a drug user in the local village, I've been spat on when I'm taking my kids to school, you know, I I totally understood that.
00:32:33.200 --> 00:32:33.839
I I got that.
00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:43.440
You're not gonna want to go to the local village fate or something with your children, and then the children are impacted, and the partner of that person are impacted, and there are other family members that were that were there.
00:32:43.599 --> 00:32:47.200
So I just kind of sort of started formulating this this this plan.
00:32:47.359 --> 00:32:48.799
Nostalgia was a key, you know.
00:32:48.880 --> 00:32:56.000
Everyone loved the old it's a knockout tournaments and getting wet and getting mucky and you know, colourful and and being really, really loud.
00:32:56.240 --> 00:33:08.480
So I sort of formulated this tournament of it's a knockout type activities, and at the time it weren't nothing great, it were more school sports day than kind of how we've ended up, yeah, how we've ended up now.
00:33:08.559 --> 00:33:19.759
And I said I wanted to put I wanted to run it over a weekend, I wanted to put live music on, I wanted to play some really high-energetic sort of dance music to like get everyone geared up, and I thought this were an amazing idea.
00:33:20.319 --> 00:33:23.119
Took it to the commissioners, and they were like, No.
00:33:23.839 --> 00:33:29.599
I was like, Wow, yeah, but that's as well the optics on that, we can't be paying money for drug users to be having fun.
00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:37.440
Heavens forbid drug users have fun, and and of course Heavens forbid they see light at the end of a tunnel, so Jesus.
00:33:37.759 --> 00:33:41.920
And that they you'll probably cause more to relapse if you put some dance music on.
00:33:42.240 --> 00:33:44.640
So that was 2012 when I sort of pitched that.
00:33:46.559 --> 00:33:48.799
Do you feel it we've come so far away from that?
00:33:48.880 --> 00:33:52.319
But yeah, 12 isn't isn't as I think it's far worth.
00:33:52.559 --> 00:33:54.240
I went asking for I think it was like three grand.
00:33:54.640 --> 00:33:59.359
I'd come up with this plan that I could possibly do it for three grand for three grand, and we'd get a couple hundred people.
00:33:59.680 --> 00:34:01.119
Anyway, that it got shunned.
00:34:01.200 --> 00:34:03.359
No, we're not gonna do, we're not gonna do that.
00:34:03.759 --> 00:34:08.320
The the event they actually put on and was at the local ice skating rink, and they had a couple of crack skulls.
00:34:08.639 --> 00:34:15.039
I mean, where the thinking came from that let's put people in recovery and still dependent on drugs on ice skates.
00:34:17.360 --> 00:34:21.280
Yeah, but I eventually I was given a little pot of money, and and we give it a go.
00:34:21.440 --> 00:34:29.519
And the thirst one in 2013, it was a nightmare, I think, because I had all this doubt and guilt, and everyone's saying you know it's not gonna work, why would you want to do this?
00:34:29.599 --> 00:34:32.719
You're gonna cause everyone to you're gonna cause everyone to relapse.
00:34:32.960 --> 00:34:35.519
And I've been getting again trusted with this little pot of money.
00:34:35.599 --> 00:34:38.000
People never used to trust me with three quid, never mind three grand.
00:34:38.400 --> 00:34:45.920
Yeah, but I'd put it on and I'd turned up at the venue that day, and it it were it was it was I I often describe this as my my field of dreams.
00:34:46.079 --> 00:34:54.559
It's it was a Hollywood moment, and I've got all these, it's not gonna work, it was pissing it down, it were black, it were forecast thunder, like no one's gonna come.
00:34:54.800 --> 00:35:09.119
Um at six o'clock in the morning putting all these uh all these things out, and then it would just the sun broke out, a car turned up, a minibus turned up, a coach turned up, and before you know it, we had 350 people there, all just smashing it, having an amazing, an amazing time.
00:35:09.440 --> 00:35:12.239
What pushed you to what pushed you to prove people wrong then?
00:35:12.400 --> 00:35:14.880
Because it sounds like obviously there was a lot of doubters in there.
00:35:15.440 --> 00:35:17.199
I guess that's why I've called it my field of dreams.
00:35:17.519 --> 00:35:21.519
I really did believe if I if I built this thing, people would people would come.
00:35:21.679 --> 00:35:27.199
And by that time I'd been working in services probably 10, 11, 12 years.
00:35:27.519 --> 00:35:32.639
So I felt I had a good understanding of of the light of the needs of the people that wanted to come.
00:35:32.960 --> 00:35:38.079
And something that I would have been attracted to have come to in my recovery, that you know it does happen.
00:35:38.239 --> 00:35:39.360
I can still have fun.
00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:40.320
Absolutely.
00:35:40.639 --> 00:35:42.159
Look at everyone moving on with their lives.
00:35:42.239 --> 00:35:48.239
Yeah, and I think I mean I've worked in services now for for uh just over ten years.
00:35:48.480 --> 00:35:54.000
I do think the last time I went to the recovery games was probably the best day at work I have ever had.
00:35:54.800 --> 00:35:56.559
Because it's always on a weekend now, isn't it?
00:35:56.719 --> 00:36:10.079
Yes, which I you know it's great, but I think over the past couple of years especially, you know, you've got stuff on, you've got your personal circumstances that I need to sort out on a weekend, but when it was a weekday, it was like they're just let us have the day off to go there and do it.
00:36:10.239 --> 00:36:10.880
I was like, What do you mean?
00:36:10.960 --> 00:36:13.119
I get the day off to go and do this, and it was great.
00:36:13.199 --> 00:36:23.360
And I remember doing like the the canoeing challenge, I think we were up on the water in background, and then there was the big paint party, and I've just never experienced positivity like it.
00:36:23.519 --> 00:36:32.079
And like you've gone there from 350 people in those early days to now, it it it brings around a thousand people plus each year.
00:36:32.239 --> 00:36:32.960
Yeah, would you say?
00:36:33.199 --> 00:36:35.760
I think we had just over 2,000 there last last last year.
00:36:35.920 --> 00:36:37.440
Oh wow, and it rained, yeah.
00:36:37.679 --> 00:36:46.960
You know, well it started to rain just on the day that on the day that I ran, it it started to rain, but it just didn't put I think the the spirits were so high, yeah, nothing was dampening the spirits.
00:36:47.039 --> 00:36:52.960
Yeah, it meant a couple of the uh inflatable things you weren't allowed to go on because it was wet and other things we could go on.
00:36:53.039 --> 00:36:58.800
But what what do you think that the recovery games gives people that traditional recovery spaces doesn't?
00:36:58.880 --> 00:37:02.880
You've said you've worked in services for do you know how long have you worked in services now?
00:37:02.960 --> 00:37:04.800
Uh be 24 years.
00:37:05.039 --> 00:37:06.639
So you worked in services for 24 years.
00:37:06.719 --> 00:37:10.320
What does the recovery games give that traditional services don't?
00:37:10.639 --> 00:37:13.760
I think our key things are connection and hope.
00:37:13.840 --> 00:37:15.760
Yeah, and I think, and and and that's it.
00:37:15.840 --> 00:37:19.679
And I've often described the the the recovery game itself is contagious.
00:37:19.760 --> 00:37:25.920
You can't you cannot come to to the to the event one not want to come again and not just just smile.
00:37:27.119 --> 00:37:39.199
And you know, one one of the things I never anticipated when I put this together, I just wanted people to get together and have a have have a good time and find a bit of sense of connection, and and because you know recovery used to be hid, it used to be hid behind closed doors.
00:37:39.280 --> 00:37:40.320
We didn't talk about it.
00:37:40.400 --> 00:37:45.360
There was there was too much stigma to own the fact that you'd got you'd got better and you'd and and you'd moved on.
00:37:45.519 --> 00:37:48.639
So I kind of wanted to to change to change that.
00:37:48.800 --> 00:37:54.079
I mean the reason we used to do it on a work day is we'd had massive budget cuts and the staff were just so demoralised.
00:37:54.559 --> 00:37:59.679
So I wanted to get them from behind the desks and experience recovery in action is what is the way I see it.
00:37:59.760 --> 00:38:02.559
So we're there, the working with the families, the working with the peers.
00:38:02.719 --> 00:38:09.760
We we later opened it up to the community to open up to the community to come and just just join any way, shape, or or or form.
00:38:09.920 --> 00:38:15.760
So I think, yeah, connectedness, hope, and the realisation that you know what, we can still have a very good time.
00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:16.400
Oh, it is.
00:38:17.280 --> 00:38:26.159
I mean, we were gonna come about three years ago, we were all excited to come ready to come, and then we realised it it landed on the same day that we were hosting the UK National Recovery Walk.
00:38:26.239 --> 00:38:26.400
Yeah.
00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:34.719
Oh no, I think it may have been the day before or something, but because we had to prepare for the recovery walk, we we just couldn't get there.
00:38:34.880 --> 00:38:39.440
But it was it was yeah, I mean, I've I definitely think it's on the cards for us this year to go.
00:38:39.679 --> 00:38:40.239
I'd be mean.
00:38:40.400 --> 00:38:44.559
Um we'd absolutely love it, but it because it is, it's such a such a positive event.
00:38:44.960 --> 00:38:57.360
So working in addiction services for 425 years in the way that you have, how has your personal lived experience shaped the way that you support people who are in recovery?
00:38:59.039 --> 00:39:03.679
I think if anything, it's you know one one shoe size doesn't fit all.
00:39:03.760 --> 00:39:16.639
And and one of the things we've tried to put uh put across in terms of the recovery games is that recovery is a very individual thing, and a a bugbear of mine is where one certain way is sub is subscribed for people.
00:39:16.960 --> 00:39:21.440
It's it's pretty much an and and I've worked with people on what they want to work with, I I guess.
00:39:21.519 --> 00:39:27.920
And I think working within services, I I think my approach always were I didn't start there to convince people to not use drugs.
00:39:28.320 --> 00:39:32.400
You know, I'm I'm I'm there to support people who who want to make that decision to make some changes.
00:39:32.559 --> 00:39:41.519
Yeah, and I think the key is when you shift it from giving up on something to gaining something, is yeah, where we can make that difference.
00:39:41.760 --> 00:39:42.960
Yeah, absolutely.
00:39:43.119 --> 00:39:46.559
Um I don't think there's a power in obviously the the lived experience.
00:39:46.719 --> 00:39:52.239
Like I guess uh an interesting thing that I'd like to to unpick is you you've been through treatment yourself.
00:39:52.559 --> 00:40:01.599
Is the things that were given to you by the treatment providers that you do differently or purposefully do differently based on a negative experience that you had yourself?
00:40:01.840 --> 00:40:03.519
Yeah, 18 months for meth.
00:40:03.840 --> 00:40:06.400
I mean, the idea of a there, you've got 18 months.
00:40:06.559 --> 00:40:10.079
I imagine that definitely shaped your practice to be the opposite of that.
00:40:10.880 --> 00:40:12.320
Without a doubt, without a doubt.
00:40:12.480 --> 00:40:24.719
I think it if anything I became known within sort of my my air delivery of being sort of brutally honest, and you know, I I won't be and I think I I often went into sit and I were told stuff that I wanted to hear, not stuff that I should have done.
00:40:25.199 --> 00:40:26.320
Okay, interesting, isn't it?
00:40:26.559 --> 00:40:52.079
Yeah, and I think if anything that that's kind of shaped my own individual practice in in that I I can be brutally honest and if I see bullshit I call bullshit and and I and I wish through my treatment some people had a call had a had a called are called that, you know, when I'm kind of coasting and and and not sort of pushing my pushing my boundaries, but just yeah, just encouraging people to just not feel like they need to do that alone.
00:40:52.159 --> 00:41:02.719
I think that was one key thing if throughout that 25 years that if I could yeah sort of pass on and I've put into everything that I do, there's a sense of we need a sense of connection and purpose.
00:41:03.920 --> 00:41:08.719
And and you would have been now in recovery longer than you was in addiction.
00:41:08.880 --> 00:41:09.280
Yes.
00:41:10.079 --> 00:41:13.599
So do you still consider yourself to be in recovery?
00:41:14.000 --> 00:41:14.559
Good question.
00:41:14.639 --> 00:41:17.920
Yeah, good question, because it it it I guess it it it shifts.
00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:26.719
I it feels too overconfident to say that I'm recovered, although I can't ever imagine being that person that used heroin again.
00:41:26.960 --> 00:41:27.440
Yeah.
00:41:28.320 --> 00:41:30.239
Yeah, I get I yeah, I get that, yeah.
00:41:30.400 --> 00:41:33.599
Because obviously people say it's taking it it day by day.
00:41:33.840 --> 00:41:57.840
Do you ever get cravings or anything for it anymore, or is that like proper in the rear view for you know that's that's it's in the it's in the rearview, and and don't get me wrong, I think seven to ten years, you know, and and this is the slog, this is what you're selling to people, and this is the reality that I often sort of help shape people in service, is it ain't gonna happen overnight, and it might not be a hard slog for that for that length of that length of time, but there's still some work to put in during that that process.
00:41:57.920 --> 00:42:10.320
And it's not to say once you get beyond that everything's all hunky-dory and uh and and and magical, but yeah, I can't ever ever are you absent of like all sorts like could you drink do you drink?
00:42:11.440 --> 00:42:13.519
So you drink so you can drink and that's not an issue, yeah.
00:42:13.599 --> 00:42:14.239
That's interesting.
00:42:14.480 --> 00:42:21.440
In terms of thinking about some of the some of the stuff we talked about earlier, how has your relationship with your children changed now?
00:42:21.679 --> 00:42:24.559
25 years of sobriety, where's that?
00:42:24.880 --> 00:42:28.880
That because it it's it's really hard to mend those relationships, isn't it?
00:42:29.199 --> 00:42:37.760
Yeah, so I would I was I was I was fortunate in that it it was my my eldest son that that was the most uh impacted of that.
00:42:37.920 --> 00:42:45.760
He had an older sister which was my my my stepdaughter, um which unfortunately went what I'd I I had to make a really really tough decision.
00:42:45.920 --> 00:42:51.599
It's one of the hardest decisions I ever made in my in my life was I had to be ready to go for the access and support.
00:42:51.679 --> 00:42:54.320
And I and I've seen so many people do it half-assed.
00:42:54.480 --> 00:42:56.960
Yeah, and it is so detrimental on the child.
00:42:57.119 --> 00:43:04.400
So I I had to make a knack that I wasn't ready, and it took me 18 months of going through that treatment before I decided that I that I that I were.
00:43:05.519 --> 00:43:08.719
He we we went through I went through I went through courts.
00:43:08.800 --> 00:43:12.480
I mean the the stigma associated with that was just um unbelievable.
00:43:12.559 --> 00:43:20.480
I had to have supervised access, so you know, sat in a room similar to this, but with a with a mirror on it and social workers at the other the other side.
00:43:20.960 --> 00:43:24.000
But yeah, our relationship's amazing in all fairness.
00:43:24.159 --> 00:43:26.480
He came back to live with me when he was when he was 18.
00:43:28.000 --> 00:43:30.239
But yeah, it is Does he understand?
00:43:30.320 --> 00:43:32.000
Like, I mean, how old is he now, your son?
00:43:32.400 --> 00:43:33.440
He'll be 30 next year.
00:43:33.599 --> 00:43:34.719
Oh wow, yeah, yeah.
00:43:35.039 --> 00:43:53.119
So how much of it like your it's I always find it weird when we tell these stories because like you we've just been talking this entire time about you having like these and obviously they don't stay young forever, yeah, but now my man's trying to comprehend that this like you know tiny child that we've just been talking about is demo like I'm literally only just older than than what your son is.
00:43:53.360 --> 00:43:54.800
So, how much of it does he understand?
00:43:54.960 --> 00:43:58.719
Have you been have you been able to be like proper up and honest about what it was like for you?
00:43:59.440 --> 00:43:59.599
Yeah.
00:44:00.320 --> 00:44:02.159
Yeah, it it just tells me to shut up.
00:44:02.400 --> 00:44:04.400
I think it's like just typical dad donor.
00:44:04.880 --> 00:44:10.320
Yeah, you just you're just revisiting trauma, you don't need to revisit, and and we're all we're all good, we're all we're all good.
00:44:10.400 --> 00:44:14.559
And it's like I carry a lot of guilt, you know, and I don't feel that it is ever going to go.
00:44:15.119 --> 00:44:24.079
And but it yeah, it we we we have got an absolutely amazing um relationship, and and and the great thing about the recovery games is my my family are the event team.
00:44:24.400 --> 00:44:24.880
Okay, yeah.
00:44:25.199 --> 00:44:28.639
So if you can imagine as we've grown, we we we struggled to get volunteers.
00:44:28.800 --> 00:44:32.719
So 70% of the event staff team on the day are my friends and family, yeah.
00:44:32.960 --> 00:44:37.440
Everyone from my mum to my aunties, yeah, my youngest daughter's been doing it since she was five.
00:44:37.679 --> 00:44:39.840
Oh wow, she's now 18 in May.
00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:50.960
Yeah, so they'll they've all been instrumental in in helping shape it, facilitate it, and that's why it's always been really keen for me that it's a family event because my family have been instrumental in in helping shape that.
00:44:51.119 --> 00:44:51.440
Yeah.
00:44:51.599 --> 00:44:58.320
I'm just thinking about the stigma that you said you experienced, you know, the idea of people spitting on you on the score and is absolutely horrific.
00:44:58.719 --> 00:45:05.920
How do you think an event like the Recovery Games helps challenge that perception of the stigma that that you would have faced?
00:45:06.719 --> 00:45:16.159
And even with the social worker contact that you were talking about, that's you know, the idea of them just sat behind it, got you know that's why these events are important, but how does it change that perception?
00:45:16.400 --> 00:45:33.920
I think it does, I think, because you know, a general public and after lack of a cage education or blinkered views on things, or they've never been directly sort of or indirectly affected by uh by it is is that stark realization that you know that they're not wandering around with with horns on their heads.
00:45:34.159 --> 00:45:43.280
I actually I actually said this once in an ITV interview and it panned to a Viking with horns on his head behind it, so it was like I'm always really cautious using that line that line now.
00:45:44.400 --> 00:45:50.960
But the there was an amazing uh sorry, I think we were about three years in because where we do it is it's a popular dog walking spot as well, and I purposely chose that venue.
00:45:51.280 --> 00:45:57.039
Is it the same place that it's always yeah so just by the Yeah, so just by the lake in in in a little village called Hatfield.
00:45:57.199 --> 00:46:02.639
We've got to a point now where we're that large, we are starting to irritate, I think, the residents of a small minority of them.
00:46:02.960 --> 00:46:06.320
But this lovely old lady came through and she was like, you know, what is this?
00:46:06.559 --> 00:46:15.440
Explain to me about recovery, and and I told her, and I was like, So, you know, this is for addicts, and you know, people in recovery and recovery, and she was like, Which ones are they?
00:46:15.679 --> 00:46:25.360
Yeah, and I was like, Almost everybody here, but at this point she she'd kind of like when as soon as I told her about the addict, she'd picked a little dog up and tucked him into his coat, and she was checking that her purse was still in it in its pocket.
00:46:25.440 --> 00:46:32.159
But then the minute I said that, she she just her demeanour changed, she she dropped the dog and she was like, This is amazing.
00:46:32.400 --> 00:46:34.719
She says, I would have she said, They just look so normal.
00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:40.480
We are well this this this is it, you know, it don't discriminate, it touches everybody, yeah.
00:46:40.719 --> 00:47:06.159
And so being able to open ourselves up and and enter into those kind of conversations with people, they just happen to kind of come at come across as but as we've as we've grown, family is family is key, and we we now get we probably had about a thousand sort of spectators from the local community last last last year, and it's just that they're all engaging, and you can't tell who's who, and that's that's kind of the that's the beauty of it, isn't it?
00:47:06.239 --> 00:47:07.199
Really, yeah, yeah.
00:47:07.360 --> 00:47:08.400
No, I I really like that.
00:47:08.480 --> 00:47:12.079
Like I said, I mean have you got a date for this year set or I'm pushing.
00:47:12.239 --> 00:47:12.400
Okay.
00:47:12.639 --> 00:47:15.840
Yeah, I'm I'm I'm still I'm I'm still pushing for for the date.
00:47:16.000 --> 00:47:20.079
So I mean we we want to we want to make this as as as big as we can.
00:47:20.159 --> 00:47:27.360
And I never never envisioned when I first came up with this idea that you know how important is coming people's recovery calendar.
00:47:27.840 --> 00:47:36.559
I've I've had people quote as the reason they stay in recovery so they can continue to come the following year, or they found their recovery there.
00:47:36.639 --> 00:47:48.000
I mean, we interviewed a lovely guy last week who's kind of got reconnected back with his family through the recovery games, and it's like I just really didn't see that it would it would have that much it would have that much value.
00:47:48.159 --> 00:47:56.320
Well, one of the things that always sticks to me, there's always little snippets where I I hear something, and and it is the saying of the the opposite of addiction isn't sobriety, it's connections.
00:47:56.400 --> 00:47:59.599
Yes, and that is something that the recovery games brings, isn't it?
00:47:59.760 --> 00:48:03.119
Like that is that massive feeling of connection of everybody there, yeah.
00:48:03.360 --> 00:48:04.880
It's it's it's it's wonderful.
00:48:05.039 --> 00:48:05.920
How is it funded then?
00:48:06.000 --> 00:48:10.159
Because obviously the first time you did it, you had a little pot of a pot of money like how were you able to fund it each year, isn't it?
00:48:10.559 --> 00:48:12.639
This is kind of a part of a transition that we're going through, I guess.
00:48:12.800 --> 00:48:25.679
So we were very, very fortunate that the local drug and alcohol partnership fund f funded the the event, and you you can imagine the the budget has grown considerably from the first£3,000 to where we're at where we're at now.00:48:25.920 --> 00:48:31.360
But kind of what I've as as part of the the next phase, what I've introduced is corporate sponsorship.00:48:31.920 --> 00:48:39.760
So we've we're very fortunate the last couple of years, we've had a number of large businesses directly sponsor us and offer us offer us goods.00:48:39.840 --> 00:48:46.880
And I think you know, when we're looking at sort of that is an important phase of people in recovery, getting back into you know meaningful employment.00:48:47.039 --> 00:49:01.360
So the more companies and businesses I can bring along on the day, so we've got we've got the you know people in recovery, people from community supporting recovery, and we've now got investors from the corporate world kind of doing this, doing this as well.00:49:01.440 --> 00:49:03.599
So we are we are hopeful moving forward.00:49:03.760 --> 00:49:06.000
Our our money's more or less dried up, basically.00:49:06.320 --> 00:49:11.760
So as we have now become more of a national event than a than a than a regional event, and again, this blows my mind.00:49:11.840 --> 00:49:14.800
We had a team travel for 17 hours to come to the recovery.00:49:14.960 --> 00:49:16.320
They came from the the Isle of Wight.00:49:16.559 --> 00:49:20.480
Oh wow, and it's like we had a team seven-hour drive from Hampshire last year, yeah.00:49:20.800 --> 00:49:22.800
So it just it just totally blows me away.00:49:22.880 --> 00:49:24.639
It's like real goosebumps.00:49:24.800 --> 00:49:26.559
So that's that's kind of where we're gonna go.00:49:26.639 --> 00:49:28.159
We had to turn away 20 teams last year.00:49:28.239 --> 00:49:28.639
Oh really?00:49:28.960 --> 00:49:29.840
Hate turning anybody away.00:49:30.079 --> 00:49:30.559
Of course, yeah.00:49:30.880 --> 00:49:35.920
So we want to expand, we want to we want to take it out to areas that's never been what been one.00:49:36.239 --> 00:49:40.320
I keep speaking with people down south in the London area, and they're like, we've never heard of it.00:49:40.400 --> 00:49:41.840
How do we get how do how do we get there?00:49:42.000 --> 00:50:01.519
And so yeah, we want to and it's interesting about the corporate sponsor as well, because I'm just thinking we had a lad on and he ran like the length of America, and there was this business that was really interested in sponsoring him, and he said, like when he went in and had the meeting with him and he told him about it, the second he mentioned it was about raising awareness about drug addiction.00:50:01.760 --> 00:50:06.159
There was if this the story he told, he said they pretty much just shut the book and said we can't do anything for you.00:50:06.320 --> 00:50:06.400
Yeah.00:50:06.639 --> 00:50:07.840
Because of what it was linked to.00:50:07.920 --> 00:50:08.079
Yeah.00:50:08.159 --> 00:50:12.480
If you said you were doing it to raise awareness around cancers, everyone would be signing the checkbooks.00:50:13.119 --> 00:50:23.440
But because it's addiction and obviously it's related to substance misuse and drugs, and suddenly corporations and and businesses can be a little bit like, Yeah, we don't want to be associated with that.00:50:23.519 --> 00:50:24.480
Have you experienced that at all?00:50:24.880 --> 00:50:26.719
Yeah, yeah, it it's been a hard slug, though.00:50:28.719 --> 00:50:30.800
Yeah, the whole way the whole way through, really.00:50:31.440 --> 00:50:41.519
And and again, even working with local authorities and partnerships, and when when there's in the public eye, so much better things to spend the money uh spend the money on, it it's become a lot more difficult.00:50:41.679 --> 00:50:47.280
But as what we've as we've got it's we we've had a really key sponsor in the last couple of years, which is keep moat homes.00:50:47.440 --> 00:50:48.800
So they do a lot all across the country.00:50:48.880 --> 00:50:51.280
I think they've got some massive building projects in in whole.00:50:51.679 --> 00:50:52.639
Yeah, I've I've heard of them, yeah.00:50:52.880 --> 00:50:53.920
So it must be must be.00:50:54.320 --> 00:50:59.119
So through their social value partnership, we we've been working really closely together over the last three years.00:50:59.360 --> 00:51:11.039
Uh they've they've provided sort of small donations towards money, they've they've commissioned a a videographer to come and document the the day to encourage more corporate partners to kind of to come in.00:51:11.119 --> 00:51:15.440
And I think that's it's due to the success that we've that we've had and the numbers that we've now got.00:51:15.599 --> 00:51:20.559
So six years ago when I first asked for corporate sponsorship, addiction, drugs, didn't you?00:51:22.639 --> 00:51:34.400
I mean, I I remember approaching the local scouts just for some support because we we struggle with sort of you know activities and volunteer support, and I thought the perfect opportunity spoke with the local scout leader, it's like, oh this sounds amazing.00:51:34.480 --> 00:51:36.000
Let me just speak to the parents.00:51:36.880 --> 00:51:39.920
No, turn it was it, yeah, we were we were turned back.00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:41.280
So the stigma is still real.00:51:41.440 --> 00:51:48.880
I think it is still it is still there, and it'll still be a keen mission of the recovery games to try and overcome that because I'm I'm a firm believer that yeah.00:51:49.119 --> 00:51:53.440
As as you've said, I think the opposite that addiction is often described as being disconnected.00:51:53.760 --> 00:52:07.519
So the more we can connect people, and not just connect people in silos in the recovery silos, but reconnecting people with the with the local community and the local businesses, uh so yeah, as many people as we as as we can we want to connect together.00:52:07.920 --> 00:52:08.239
Absolutely.00:52:08.400 --> 00:52:13.599
Oh Neil, you you've got the lived experience, you know, 25 years working in in recovery services.00:52:13.760 --> 00:52:24.079
If someone was is is listening and is in early recovery and feeling isolated or unsure they they belong anywhere, similar to kind of how you said you felt, what would you want them to hear today?00:52:24.960 --> 00:52:25.679
Reach out.00:52:26.239 --> 00:52:29.920
Yeah, I think the the the landscape is is very, very different.00:52:30.400 --> 00:52:38.000
There are lots of amazing services out there and peer support, the lived experience agenda is is absolutely amazing.00:52:38.159 --> 00:52:42.880
So, you know, if if you're feeling that you're at a loss and there is there is no way out, please believe that there is.00:52:42.960 --> 00:52:53.679
And there's there's people who are more than willing to support you with quite a belt of tools to help to you know to help you with.00:52:53.920 --> 00:52:54.800
No, thank you, Neil.00:52:54.880 --> 00:53:00.400
I'd like to finish all my podcast with a series of questions, not related to what we've spoken about so far.00:53:00.559 --> 00:53:02.559
My first question is what is your favourite word?00:53:03.360 --> 00:53:04.000
Positivity.00:53:04.400 --> 00:53:07.039
Least favourite word disconnection.00:53:07.280 --> 00:53:08.880
Something that excites you.00:53:09.519 --> 00:53:10.239
Recovery.00:53:10.480 --> 00:53:12.159
Something that doesn't excite you.00:53:13.599 --> 00:53:14.239
Salad.00:53:14.480 --> 00:53:14.880
Salad.00:53:20.079 --> 00:53:20.639
Yeah, salad.00:53:21.360 --> 00:53:22.800
I wish it did, but it it doesn't.00:53:23.039 --> 00:53:23.840
It just doesn't know.00:53:24.079 --> 00:53:25.840
What sound or noise do you love?00:53:29.280 --> 00:53:32.000
Something high energy, so yeah, something that picks me up.00:53:32.320 --> 00:53:33.119
A boine, you know.00:53:33.280 --> 00:53:33.679
A bit of a boy.00:53:33.920 --> 00:53:35.599
But a bit of a bit of a boing.00:53:35.920 --> 00:53:37.679
What sound or noise do you hate?00:53:40.239 --> 00:53:40.880
Sighing.00:53:41.440 --> 00:53:44.960
Yeah, when people just yeah I think I do it at too much.00:53:45.360 --> 00:53:46.719
Yeah, I probably I feel like I sigh.00:53:47.280 --> 00:53:48.800
I hate it at the same note as well.00:53:49.119 --> 00:53:50.079
I don't even realise I do it.00:53:50.159 --> 00:53:51.599
It's one more, why are you sighing?00:53:51.760 --> 00:53:52.719
What's that deep breath for?00:53:52.800 --> 00:53:53.599
I was like, didn't you realise that?00:53:54.079 --> 00:53:55.920
I give it kids and misses what you sighing for?00:53:56.000 --> 00:53:57.039
It's like, have I really?00:54:01.199 --> 00:54:03.039
Yeah, it's with a log day, so personal.00:54:03.280 --> 00:54:11.039
Obviously, when it's in drug services 25 years, if you could do any job that isn't your current profession, what profession would you like to attempt?00:54:11.679 --> 00:54:13.280
I always wanted to be a stunt man.00:54:13.840 --> 00:54:15.840
Oh yeah, stunt man looks great, don't you?00:54:16.239 --> 00:54:17.599
Absolutely loved the fall guy.00:54:17.920 --> 00:54:20.400
I thought, you know, I'm accident prone anyway.00:54:20.480 --> 00:54:22.800
Where's why not get paid money to have professional accident?00:54:23.679 --> 00:54:34.719
My post-professional wrestling venture because I thought, well, I'd be great at stunt man, doing all the stuff that I do is live stunts, and then I looked into it, and a majority of the work is down like London base, and I thought, oh, it's just too far away.00:54:35.280 --> 00:54:36.400
I'd have to go and do that.00:54:36.559 --> 00:54:40.800
The worst job you can imagine doing cleaning the drains.00:54:41.519 --> 00:54:43.360
I was a cleaner when I was like 16.00:54:43.440 --> 00:54:45.840
Honestly, the way people leave public toilets, yeah.00:54:46.320 --> 00:54:46.960
You wouldn't believe.00:54:47.840 --> 00:54:49.679
I mean, I've had I've had some horrible, horrible jobs.00:54:50.400 --> 00:54:52.800
That's probably it, probably it's one of my worst ones.00:54:52.960 --> 00:54:56.719
And then lastly, what would you like to hear God say when you arrive at the Pearley gates?00:54:56.960 --> 00:54:58.159
How did you end up here?00:54:58.480 --> 00:54:59.760
How did you end up here?00:55:01.199 --> 00:55:03.519
Neil, thank you so much for joining me on Believe in People.00:55:03.679 --> 00:55:04.559
Nope, thank you for having us.00:55:04.639 --> 00:55:05.280
Thank you for having us.00:55:05.440 --> 00:55:10.480
And if you've enjoyed this episode of the Believe in People podcast, we'd love for you to share it with others who might find it meaningful.00:55:10.639 --> 00:55:13.440
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