67 | Young Lee: Recovery vs. Recovered - Fatherhood, Identity & the Spiritual Path

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This is a Renew Original Recording.

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Hello and welcome to Believe in People, a two-time Radio Academy Award-nominated and British Podcast Award-winning series about all things addiction, recovery and stigma.

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My name is Matthew Butler and I'm your host, or as I like to say, your facilitator, in this episode.

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I welcome back Young Lee for his second appearance on Believe in People, following the overwhelming response and demand from listeners to have him back in the chair.

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Young's story struck a chord with listeners across the country and this conversation dives even deeper into the spiritual, emotional and practical tools that helped him rebuild a life from the wreckage of addiction.

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Once having lost everything his home, career and family Jung now lives a life rooted in spiritual practice, personal responsibility and a commitment to service.

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He distinguishes between simply being in recovery and truly being recovered, challenging that notion that sobriety is just about not using substances.

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For Jung, it's about emotional maturity, consistent action and a daily return to presence.

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Jung finds peace not in external achievement but in being present, honest and useful.

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We explored the dangers of conflating work and recovery services with doing actual personal recovery work and the invisible threshold where addiction takes away choice.

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Through humility, meditation and helping others, jung has found a purpose beyond external validation and rediscovered his role as a father, not through promises, but through lived demonstration.

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This is a conversation about freedom, not just from substances, but from ego, self-obsession and old stories.

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I begin my conversation with Jung by asking how he went about rebuilding his recovery and where the moments were where he felt stuck or where he struggled with self-forgiveness.

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Thank you for inviting me back.

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People didn't used to invite me back anywhere for many years of my life.

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It's a very good question to start off with, and coming back to where we are in this building today, as I spoke to you earlier on, has really brought me back to the beginning of the end for me, when I spent a lot of time in drug and alcohol centres in London and Essex and then Sheffield and, like I said last time, I really did lose everything everything you know.

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I had the house, the cars, clothes, etc.

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All the material trappings that I believed was where happiness was.

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I believe that was what life was about getting material stuff.

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And when my partner, my children's mother, she caught me taking heroin in the family home chucked me out.

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That was the beginning of the end and it took maybe seven years to get right to the end where, at the end of my using and drinking and apologies if I'm repeating myself from last time there was me in a council flat in sheffield and a sofa.

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Now I'd even sold my curtains to cash converters or crack converters, as I like to talk literally I sold the council gave me some curtains, you know, brand new.

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I sold them for five pounds.

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That was strip, strip, strip.

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So to try and focus on your question, that was my starting point of nothing, nothing, Obviously no car, no TV, no VCR, like nothing.

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Everything had gone.

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You know, I mentioned last time I was in the music industry, bit by bit, the decks.

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You know the techniques.

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They were going, the mixer was going, the speakers, so there was nothing.

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So when I entered treatment the last time, for the last time, I entered with one bag of clothes.

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That was my life.

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That nothing, nothing else.

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And what's just come into my mind?

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The place where I did a detox for methadone and alcohol and benzos.

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Before I went into the treatment center, the one which I work in today, a lady from a group that I used to attend came to bring me socks because I didn't have any.

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God knows where I lost those.

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But you know, I'm just trying to paint the picture of where I'm coming from.

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So when I left that place I had no idea what I was going to do for the rest of my life.

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Now, of course, I can't think that big anyway, because it's like we can only live life one day at a time and it's a very cliche statement which you use in recovery circles to live one day at a time.

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But still that didn't stop the fear and in my mind, what am I going to do?

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I'm 43 years old.

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All I've known is the music industry, which I really don't want to go back to, because every time I went back to the music industry after a treatment setting I'd always fall back into my old life and I used to sell drugs and now I'm trying to live an honest life.

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I know I knew from that stage, because of the the work we did in treatment, that I needed to go through this complete transformation in all areas of my life, because when I used to leave treatment before I was just clean no change, yeah, still thinking like a drug addict.

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Um, so I went into a sober living place in sheffield and I moved around in a few different buildings and ended up living in this place and I'd lived in better looking crack houses in hackney.

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There was no shower.

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There was an old in my mind it was an old tin bath, but that would be exaggerating slightly One room, me and another guy in a tiny, tiny kitchen.

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And I remember lying there and thinking what am I going to do?

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I just want to be a normal person.

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I'd look out the window at people going to their jobs nine to five Suddenly.

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I wished just to be a normal person.

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I'd look out the window at people going to their jobs nine to five Suddenly.

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I wished just to be normal.

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I wished for the thing that I'd always rebelled against In my music career.

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Yeah, look at those losers nine to five, that sort of thing as my drug life losers.

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I can do whatever.

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And now I just yearned for normality.

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But how do I get there?

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I've got no idea.

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I've got no transferable skills.

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What's your?

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What have you been doing the last 10 years of your life, sir?

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Oh, I've been.

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I've been on heroin, crack, cocaine and doing a bit of crime, and so I felt like I was in the spiritual wilderness, in the desert, everywhere I looked.

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I just feel a bit lost and what I did is I went on this course called the Ambassador's Course through Sheffield Drug and Alcohol Agency and it was for people like me who had either come out of treatment or were in recovery, and I think it was run in partnership with the NHS and I started to do that and get really into that and the point was you learnt lots of different stuff.

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I know that's really not describing it well, but I can't really remember too much.

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And then at the end of that course you got to volunteer with one of the recovery organizations like the NHS or the local drug and alcohol team or shelter.

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And I remember at the end of that I went for some interviews and I got offered a job at every single place and I couldn't believe it.

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I thought wow.

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And I was about to take a job there and then I got a call from someone who had seen me around the 12-step rooms and had known me from a long way back and had obviously seen something in me and seen that I was going through change this time.

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He knew at this stage oh, this is what I forgot to mention I seriously threw myself into yoga.

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I was introduced to it in one of the treatment settings and I was practicing yoga every single day when I left treatment Because I wasn't working.

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So I had the time to do that and I thought to myself maybe I'll be a yoga teacher.

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That came into my mind because I loved it.

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I still do love yoga.

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And I got seriously into meditation, also because I loved it.

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I still do love yoga and I got seriously into meditation also, and so this guy had heard or seen that I was into yoga and meditation and one day he called me up and he said he explained what he did and he had a company that worked with very wealthy clients who were trying to get into recovery.

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They were paying about £25, pound a week for their treatment.

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Um, and he said, are you looking for work young?

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I said yes, I am, and then the next day found me in this very swanky apartment in manchester, uh, working with this client, helping him with like meditation, yoga and kind of just being like a chaperone, because when you're paying that much money, you've got about 10 people around you, you've got all sorts of stuff.

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And so I started working for this company and I worked for them for a few years and it helped me get back on my feet and I just so, I just kind of fell into it really, you know.

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And then through there I did some work with a family rehab unit in Sheffield, phoenix Futures.

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Only briefly, they offered me a job as well and you know they do some amazing work with these mothers, with these tiny and fathers, tiny babies, and heartbreaking, heartbreaking.

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I remember a lady came out of hospital with a newborn baby and this is the power of this illness.

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She left the baby to go and score, yeah, and didn't come back absolutely and you know that's the power of this illness.

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The love this mother had for her child wasn't enough to stop her mind from twisting and sending her back out and that's the thing that people don't don't relate to with addiction, because you try telling that to someone who hasn't experienced addiction, they can't comprehend that, can't comprehend it?

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no, because on paper, yeah.

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They would say well, why, why would you do this?

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And the addict, if they don't understand the illness, would say I don't know, and they would hate themselves for that you can guarantee that person, like millions of others in in our city today, will be using, not saying, oh, this is amazing.

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They'll be using them when they start coming down.

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They'll be hating themselves, they'll be full of regret, remorse, shame, regret, but not knowing how to stop this thing.

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There was a point you said a second ago about the bath and the and the tin bath.

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Yeah, the reason why I pick up on that is because I want to ask about looking back at your addiction how much of it do you romanticize?

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And the reason why I ask that is because we had a previous participant on before and he said he was driving past, uh, basically an old crack den that he used to stay in around christmas time and he said he remembers the snow outside.

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He said I remember the fire being on and he said I create this picture in my head but when I really think about it he said it wasn't like that he said the the toilet was broken, the sink was hanging off the wall.

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He said it was an awful environment.

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But he said there's part of him that looks back at that journey and looks back at where he was and almost tries to add a positive spin to it, like it was something that it wasn't.

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And when you mentioned then about the tin bath, it reminded me of that.

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Do you look back at any of your previous using and maybe try and make it out to be, um, I suppose not as chaotic as it was or more spiritual than it was, like where?

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What do you think when you look back at previous, like cracked ends and places that you've stayed?

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Do you know what?

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what?

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No, I never do In previous carnations, if that's even a proper word of me being in recovery.

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I used to and I'd always relapse.

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There's not one part of me that thinks, oh, that would be, or even gets a feeling, or no no, and don't get me wrong.

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Don't get me wrong.

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For maybe a decade, maybe even more, there were some great times on drugs.

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Yeah, I understand that.

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But it led me to absolute hell and misery and I'm very neutral in the area of drugs and alcohol today.

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It doesn't.

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I don't think good or bad, it just is I've been placed in this position of neutrality.

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I'm not fighting it.

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I think that's how you have to be when you're working in this sector, because I suppose the misconception about services like ours is people think we're here to tell people to stop using drugs and the reality is I always say we're here to tell people if you are going to use, here's how you do it safely.

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I think we have to be quite neutral.

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I think once people are ready to make changes, we help them make changes, but if someone's not ready, then we can't force it upon someone.

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So I think we have to remain neutral and work with where people are.

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Is that different for you working in a rehab?

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Because, naturally, in a rehab it is absence based.

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It isn't about prevention or harm reduction.

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So, despite neutrality, is it a little bit different for you and the naturally and how you feel in those environments?

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yeah, and and you're, you're spot on there.

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I'm thinking of a phone call I had with someone last night and they were asking about a relative, let's say, and I said there's nothing you can do about it, it has to come from them.

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Yeah, and and of and of course, not everyone is there yet.

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Not everyone's there yet where they want to, um, be free of this horrible illness and have a life better than the one they could ever imagine.

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You know, I drove past a few guys there and they reminded me of me and I I looked at them.

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That's an unhappy life.

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Yeah, there's nothing joyful about that.

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Look on your face.

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When you're just skinny and gray, there's nothing joyful about that.

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But when you're in it, you can't see the truth from the false until something just cracks in you and you've just like, okay, what do I do?

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So to answer your question, it is different because in in the treatment setting, everyone has come in on the basis of that.

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They want to live, uh, an abstinence life and they want to be clean and sober permanently.

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You know, that's that's the, that's the kind of the deal in our place and so they would have, especially because we are private and services, especially if they've gone through services, they would have had to jump through some sort of hoops.

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Do you know what I mean, because there's only a little bit of money available, isn't there?

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But that's not to say everyone's ready, even Even the ones in there, but that's not to say everyone's ready, even yeah, even the ones in there, you know.

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Yeah, I think the talk about.

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I had a guy before and he said you know, he said he hates it when people tell him that relapse is part of the process.

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He said because I feel like you're giving me an excuse to go and use.

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Do you know what?

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It's not part of the process.

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Relapse is a part of not having recovery like a solid the recovery that I practice.

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And I always share this.

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I always share this and, like I spoke to you earlier, I have to be careful because of certain traditions and anonymity.

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But I can say a 12-step program, I just won't say which one.

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We have 100% I'm going to be a bit controversial 100% success rate for those who live in a 12-step program.

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Now, percentages that are thrown out there, people that kind of make these.

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I probably talk about people who go to meetings.

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Now, meetings are not the program, they're just a small part of the program and I work with hundreds, thousands maybe over the years.

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Maybe I'm not even exaggerating about that.

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Those guys who live in a 12-step program, they don't relapse, don't relapse.

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You know, those who were in a program kind of stopped doing it, yeah, they relapse, but those who were in it don't, and often in places drug and alcohol places they'd say, oh, it's just a lapse.

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Well, as a drug addict and alcoholic, I know where that leads.

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Yeah, you know, and it's not part of recovery, it's part of being a drug addict and alcoholic.

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Without a solution, I can stay sober and clean for a certain amount of time.

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Yeah, you know, I can be on a methadone.

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You know I'm going to always, gonna always.

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I'm gonna be always in this cycle, you know, I might get clean for a little bit and then I'm back in it and then it gets worse, and then I do.

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You know, I'm glad you said that about being a small part of the process as well, because I think me, people think I'll go to the meeting a couple days a week and that'll sort you out, but it's, it's everything that you do as part of that is the daily routine, the, the almost like the rituals that you have to live by absolutely in order to maintain the abstinence it.

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It really is.

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It really is because I think there's a narrative that just go to loads of meetings.

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Go to loads of and of course they're important because I'll meet recovered people that can show me the process that keeps them well.

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Yeah, um, but it's only one part of a big hole.

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You were talked about um parents and their children.

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Yeah and um, I suppose the the madness of of that you know.

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Talking about, uh, babies, but yourself, you you previously mentioned um the pain of not seeing your children during active addiction.

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How has your journey in recovery impacted your role as a father?

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Good question.

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So I've just spent the weekend with my two youngest children, who live down south, and it's probably a 10-hour journey from where I live, you know, round trip.

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So I only see them about once every three weeks, which is not the best, but it's the best I can do at the moment.

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Okay, going back to that question, so it must have been very difficult for my kids anyone's children, you know and this can be a really difficult thing for people in recovery the guilt and shame of what we've done, you know we've not.

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I cannot be a father when I'm a drug addict, an alcoholic.

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I can convince myself, but I'm not even if I'm seeing them.

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I'm not even if I'm seeing them, I'm not there emotionally.

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I'm not.

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Giving you know my all to them.

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So my children today know that they have a father who is reliable and dependable and I'm emotionally sober.

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They know that I don't shout, I don't get angry with them and they know that's how I show up.

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You know, consistently.

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And it's taken a while and I will share this.

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You know I've been clean over six years, just over six years now, and for the first two years I think it was that long my daughter refused to speak to me when I used to go up to see her brother.

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She would literally run into her bedroom, you know.

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And I remember that phone call in rehab where her mum said to me do you not realize your daughter hates you?

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And that felt, oh my goodness.

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But I remember it was a pivotal moment for me because I went upstairs in the rehab, I was lying on my bed and I was falling into self-pity.

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Oh, my god, poor me.

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And then suddenly something said poor her, what about her?

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Why do you always make it about you?

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What are you going to do different?

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It was almost like that.

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What you're going to do different?

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Because in the past I'd always just be like, oh my god, and and I can't sit in that pain for very long before my head knows a way out of that pain through drugs and alcohol um.

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So they know they've got a dependable dad today and we have a very good relationship.

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We were just talking this weekend about um a summer holiday we're going to plan overseas.

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It cost me fortune.

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It cost you, yeah, but I love being able to do this for them today, because I've been missing for a while, you know, so I'm making that up.

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Working in the rehab, I'm sure you'll encounter many people in a similar situation to that.

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What advice would you give to parents who are new to recovery, because I think some people like, as you said, then your daughter didn't speak to you for the first two years.

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I think some people in the mindset of oh, once I get once I'm clean I can have a relationship my kids.

00:21:08.871 --> 00:21:17.838
Well, a lot's happened in that time and that, as you said, poor hair children aren't as forgiving as oh, you're clean, now come back into the fold.

00:21:17.838 --> 00:21:18.671
You know what I mean.

00:21:18.671 --> 00:21:20.497
So what advice would you give to parents?

00:21:21.601 --> 00:21:28.659
it's a good question again, because that can be the mindset of the drug addict or alcoholic goes into rehab.

00:21:28.659 --> 00:21:30.321
I, I and I'm talking.

00:21:30.321 --> 00:21:31.791
I can talk for my experience.

00:21:31.791 --> 00:21:43.726
I go into rehab because I've been into four and I come out of and and it's almost like when I go back to the family home I think they're gonna have the bunting out and the band.

00:21:43.826 --> 00:21:46.413
Well, done, you're clean and sober way, let's have a party.

00:21:46.413 --> 00:21:54.338
It's like well, they haven't forgot all the mess you've caused and this and this and this, but I, I kind of sort of want everyone to give me a pat on the back.

00:21:54.338 --> 00:21:56.834
It's the kind of mindset of me, the drug addict.

00:21:56.855 --> 00:21:58.599
You, you know unrecovered.

00:21:59.411 --> 00:22:01.679
I'm still absolutely selfish and self-centered.

00:22:01.679 --> 00:22:18.021
The advice I would give it's going to be in their time, if they forgive, if they want a relationship and that's tricky because I want to, yeah, but it's different this time.

00:22:18.021 --> 00:22:19.674
But I've got to remember.

00:22:19.674 --> 00:22:20.557
My words are cheap.

00:22:20.557 --> 00:22:24.060
I've said that a million times and then I've done it again and again.

00:22:24.060 --> 00:22:25.634
And what was taught to me?

00:22:25.634 --> 00:22:30.759
It's about your demonstration, it's about your consistent action.

00:22:30.759 --> 00:22:33.939
It's about you giving money to the mum.

00:22:33.939 --> 00:22:42.571
Money to the mum.

00:22:42.632 --> 00:22:47.470
I remember and I was left the ark where I work and and speaking to one of one of the staff there, that that I used to speak to a lot and I and I used to say, oh, the mum does this.

00:22:47.470 --> 00:22:50.596
And he said, young, she just wants to see some money from you.

00:22:50.596 --> 00:22:54.834
You know, this is your demonstration that you're going to go through change.

00:22:54.834 --> 00:23:07.018
So I think, just to kind of put it in a nutshell, it's about having patience, it's about concentrating on your recovery, not concentrating on getting the kids back.

00:23:07.018 --> 00:23:08.736
And I'll tell you a quick story.

00:23:10.453 --> 00:23:14.998
I remember I was in a treatment centre and there was a young lady who was in there.

00:23:14.998 --> 00:23:18.616
This was quite a while ago and she was in there to get her kids back.

00:23:18.616 --> 00:23:23.421
Her kids were sort of taken off her and she was fighting to get her kids back.

00:23:23.421 --> 00:23:33.181
So she was in treatment to kind of show the courts she was getting better and stuff and people used to always say you can't do this for anyone else, it has to be for you.

00:23:33.181 --> 00:23:43.017
She did get her kids back and I saw her recently on the streets of a certain city on the streets.

00:23:43.037 --> 00:23:43.939
You know it's.

00:23:43.939 --> 00:23:51.217
My point in telling that story is is if I'm doing recovery for other people, to get my kids back, or because I want something.

00:23:51.217 --> 00:23:54.172
In my experience, recovery is only temporary.

00:23:54.433 --> 00:24:05.077
Yeah, you know yeah, I think that was something I learned quite early on when I first came into this field is, if people say that they're doing it for others, it won't last, they need to do it for themselves.

00:24:05.077 --> 00:24:17.016
And that is something that has always stuck with me because, as you've said, then anyone that I've seen coming and saying I've got to do it for them, I've got it, it doesn't last yeah, you see the lapses, you see the relapses as part of that process.

00:24:18.196 --> 00:24:21.180
We know that recovery isn't just about stopping drug use.

00:24:21.180 --> 00:24:26.766
You mentioned about being emotionally sober, which is an interesting way of putting it.

00:24:26.766 --> 00:24:35.688
What have been some of the biggest emotional or psychological battles that you've had since sobriety.

00:24:35.827 --> 00:24:40.840
Okay yeah, recovery certainly isn't about just not using or just not drinking.

00:24:40.840 --> 00:24:42.592
That's obviously the start.

00:24:42.592 --> 00:24:48.811
But if just not using, if drugs or alcohol was our problem, all you'd need is a detox.

00:24:48.811 --> 00:24:55.454
But think how many guys you work with who have multiple detoxes, like the guy downstairs been out of rehab four days.

00:24:55.474 --> 00:24:56.497
He wants to go back on a script.

00:24:56.497 --> 00:24:58.643
I wanted to shake him, say there's an answer, man.

00:24:58.643 --> 00:25:08.780
But when we take drugs and alcohol out of us as drug addicts and alcoholics, it's no different than I've cut off the top of a weed.

00:25:08.780 --> 00:25:11.817
I haven't got to the root of the problem.

00:25:11.817 --> 00:25:14.458
So the weeds, the illness is still growing.

00:25:14.458 --> 00:25:21.010
The illness is still growing, but I don't know, because I got a new pair of air max and got a new girlfriend and you know I think I'm doing really good.

00:25:21.010 --> 00:25:26.864
Yeah, um, so, yeah, the, the words, we that I use that.

00:25:26.924 --> 00:25:29.891
The emotional sobriety, we call it emotional sobriety.

00:25:29.891 --> 00:25:39.105
It's where we live in recovery, in a way that I don't rely on external things for my contentness.

00:25:39.105 --> 00:25:44.623
You know, I don't rely on people to behave in a certain way for me to be okay.

00:25:44.623 --> 00:25:50.678
Or I could get a phone call now off my partner saying I'm cheating on you and I'm not going to fall to bits.

00:25:50.678 --> 00:25:56.778
It's not going to stop me from being sad and upset and feel betrayed, but it's not going to affect my internal.

00:25:56.778 --> 00:26:00.559
So emotional challenges, I think.

00:26:00.730 --> 00:26:01.753
Or you said a similar word.

00:26:01.874 --> 00:26:02.979
Yeah, okay.

00:26:04.291 --> 00:26:08.659
I guess what we're looking at really is because you just seem like the most chilled out bloke ever.

00:26:08.679 --> 00:26:09.200
I'm quite chilled.

00:26:09.913 --> 00:26:11.478
Yeah, it's almost like nothing faces you.

00:26:11.478 --> 00:26:28.642
I know this has obviously been a process to get you to this point, so I'm kind of looking at how you manage that stress or anxiety, all those difficult situations without going back to them, old routines that you used to go to, and I've got to say that I used to be a really angry man.

00:26:30.951 --> 00:26:39.914
I saw a meme the other day and it said something like you don't know how much pain I've been through to get to this calmness and I thought I really relate to that.

00:26:39.914 --> 00:26:45.032
Yeah, when I was in rehab they they gave me a book called king baby to read I've heard of.

00:26:45.134 --> 00:26:47.441
I've heard of this king, because that was me.

00:26:47.560 --> 00:26:48.584
You'd look at me in a way.

00:26:48.584 --> 00:27:01.289
I'd be a real reactor to life, real, reactor um, I remember in in my recovery so my auntie, who was like my mother.

00:27:01.289 --> 00:27:05.278
She showed me love when I wasn't shown love and all the rest of it.

00:27:05.278 --> 00:27:14.977
I loved her dearly, dearly, dearly, during there was a thing called lockdown did you hear about it?

00:27:14.997 --> 00:27:17.430
might have heard of it there was a thing called lockdown.

00:27:17.430 --> 00:27:19.246
This Covid thing happened.

00:27:19.246 --> 00:27:22.740
I was up in manchester working and I remember my she.

00:27:22.740 --> 00:27:32.352
She started developing dementia and it started getting quite bad and we got this sort of feeling that this lockdown it happened in europe and it was going to happen here.

00:27:32.352 --> 00:27:38.657
So my first thought was I need to get down to make sure she's all right, and at the time I didn't have a car.

00:27:38.657 --> 00:27:54.104
So I rushed to Sheffield, got a hire car, drove down, ended up staying with her for quite a few months and sort of looking after her, and for anyone who's got a relative with dementia they'll know that that's a real challenge.

00:27:55.290 --> 00:28:05.401
To bathe someone that you never thought you'd see in the nude for one thing right, and to just look at them with these eyes like this is a child almost.

00:28:05.401 --> 00:28:25.040
For someone that used to be like your teacher, who now is looking up to you confused and not knowing what to do, making them dinner, them repeating themselves over and over, is a challenging thing, especially being in it day in, day out, and so I think I'd say that was the most challenging.

00:28:25.040 --> 00:28:34.050
But I've got to say this I remember waking up there looking out the window and thinking this is one of the happiest moments of my life.

00:28:34.050 --> 00:28:35.855
That's mind-blowing.

00:28:35.855 --> 00:28:38.611
Now you're saying how do I kind of deal with those things?

00:28:39.634 --> 00:28:41.240
This is where my program steps in.

00:28:41.240 --> 00:28:43.910
I spend a lot of time in prayer and meditation.

00:28:43.910 --> 00:28:54.434
I spend a lot of time helping others, like my spare time is like this morning, since 5 am I I spoke to a few guys in in the states.

00:28:54.434 --> 00:28:56.538
I've taken someone through some work.

00:28:56.538 --> 00:28:59.243
I've been the drive from Scarborough to here.

00:28:59.243 --> 00:29:05.280
I've been on the phone with drug addicts and alcoholics and the more I do that, the deeper peace I feel.

00:29:05.280 --> 00:29:07.696
And I don't think it's a new thing.

00:29:07.696 --> 00:29:11.361
People have been doing this since the beginning of time helping others.

00:29:11.750 --> 00:29:15.151
Mother Teresa never seen her angry Gandhi.

00:29:15.551 --> 00:29:16.773
never seen him with an ASBO.

00:29:18.357 --> 00:29:18.699
You know?

00:29:18.699 --> 00:29:19.921
Do you know what I mean?

00:29:20.502 --> 00:29:20.823
You know.

00:29:20.823 --> 00:29:42.135
So I just kind of do these kind of simple things and it's kind of it's become part, just what I do without thinking, and so I have been through, because this is the thing, Just because we get clean and sober life doesn't say okay, oh, you've had a hard time, now I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to ease off you now.

00:29:42.657 --> 00:29:44.192
No life is life.

00:29:44.752 --> 00:29:47.096
I used to always say, oh, it's so unfair.

00:29:47.096 --> 00:29:47.778
What?

00:29:47.778 --> 00:29:49.300
Who was that football player Balotelli?

00:29:49.382 --> 00:29:49.942
Why always me?

00:29:49.942 --> 00:29:50.584
Why always me?

00:29:50.584 --> 00:29:50.703
Yeah.

00:30:00.170 --> 00:30:00.971
And someone said to me why should?

00:30:00.971 --> 00:30:01.732
Why do you think life should be fair?

00:30:01.732 --> 00:30:03.096
Life is just life, young, and so the wind is gonna blow.

00:30:03.096 --> 00:30:04.057
I remember having my heart broken in in.

00:30:04.057 --> 00:30:11.317
I'd probably two years in and I'd never felt like heartbreak, like like that, but it was still okay.

00:30:11.317 --> 00:30:15.919
My sponsor just said just keep helping people, you need to get out of your head.

00:30:15.919 --> 00:30:17.103
That's where the pain is.

00:30:17.103 --> 00:30:24.070
Yeah, pain's just in your head, unless you've had your arm chopped off yeah, yeah so I just kept doing those things.

00:30:24.250 --> 00:30:38.544
Um so I don't, I don't try and deal with anything in my head, I just kind of do these simple practices unless you're doing these other things yeah, something's really shifted in my whole outlook and attitude upon life.

00:30:39.471 --> 00:30:41.479
I don't see things as good and bad anymore.

00:30:41.479 --> 00:30:51.560
I see things as sometimes challenging, maybe potential learning, and sometimes people say to me you're a bit like a robot.

00:30:51.560 --> 00:30:53.394
I still feel.

00:30:53.394 --> 00:30:56.521
I still feel and I can express that.

00:30:56.521 --> 00:30:59.131
You know, I can express fears that might like.

00:30:59.131 --> 00:31:05.733
I spotted a fear this morning that that came into my head and it was just like absolutely insane.

00:31:05.733 --> 00:31:12.071
It was me projecting into like the worst possible scenario of something that hadn't even happened.

00:31:12.231 --> 00:31:15.839
Yeah, I do that all the time most humans, humans do it right Most humans do it.

00:31:16.259 --> 00:31:21.701
But I spotted it very quickly and I phoned someone up and I said he never gets what.

00:31:21.701 --> 00:31:24.798
So it just lets it out again.

00:31:25.170 --> 00:31:26.032
That's what I've tried doing.

00:31:26.032 --> 00:31:28.259
More when that's happened is verbalising that.

00:31:28.259 --> 00:31:40.278
I had a situation two weeks ago, Wednesday, and I could feel it and I just verbalised it to the two friends I was sat with and instantly just verbalized it.

00:31:40.278 --> 00:31:54.778
The fear had just shrunk, it had gone and because she said to me she went well, well done for acknowledging that, and I was like, yeah, and I instantly felt better for doing that, Whereas I think when I do project, when I am anxious, when I am feeling fear, I keep it to myself.

00:31:59.190 --> 00:32:03.116
And the more I keep it to myself and the more I keep it to myself I can feel it growing it.

00:32:03.116 --> 00:32:07.771
It does, because you know the anxiety, the worry is just in, there, in in an event that hasn't happened and probably will never happen.

00:32:07.771 --> 00:32:11.900
Now I always talk about this, think about this.

00:32:11.900 --> 00:32:15.151
We're very present right here, right now.

00:32:15.151 --> 00:32:17.553
We're looking at each other, we're speaking to each other.

00:32:17.553 --> 00:32:19.336
Everything's perfect.

00:32:19.336 --> 00:32:24.761
There's no worry, there's no anxiety, there's no judgment, there's no stress.

00:32:24.761 --> 00:32:28.605
There's nothing we need to be or become in this moment.

00:32:28.605 --> 00:32:35.744
So imagine practicing a life where I can live more in the moment than I do in the future or in the past.

00:32:35.744 --> 00:32:39.169
That's the key the past that's, that's that's the key, that's

00:32:39.189 --> 00:32:39.230
it.

00:32:39.230 --> 00:32:48.182
Talking about the past, you know, in the, the previous podcast we talked about your success within the music career and how deeply you were struggling.

00:32:48.182 --> 00:32:51.534
You talked about the dementia story, then the happiness that you felt.

00:32:51.534 --> 00:33:00.180
If you put those two things on paper of where you was then and where you was previously, people would instantly think the music career would have been the height of happiness.

00:33:00.180 --> 00:33:12.280
But looking at that industry in itself, particularly the club and the rave scenes, do you think they almost encourage substance use because it is part of the culture of it, the rave scene?

00:33:12.280 --> 00:33:19.092
But is that something that's encouraged in a way by the peers, by the industry itself, or do you think it's something that's encouraged in a way by the peers by the industry itself?

00:33:19.092 --> 00:33:21.861
Or do you think it's something that just weirdly happened, naturally?

00:33:22.769 --> 00:33:23.933
Yeah, I think it's more.

00:33:23.933 --> 00:33:25.880
It just happened.

00:33:25.880 --> 00:33:35.118
And let's we've also we've got to remember the majority of people can drink or use without it being problematic in their lives.

00:33:35.118 --> 00:33:45.353
Now I just thought about some guys I know I don't knock around with them old friends still in their 50s.

00:33:45.353 --> 00:33:47.861
They'll still do a few lines of coke here and there.

00:33:47.861 --> 00:33:53.140
It's not a very cool look in your 50s in a kitchen at 6am talking absolute nonsense.

00:33:53.140 --> 00:33:55.056
But if you want to do that, that's your jam.

00:33:58.671 --> 00:34:08.297
I don't know about you, but I always wanted to find a deeper meaning to life rather than just the surface, and I feel I found that today.

00:34:08.297 --> 00:34:16.556
But going back to your question, before I get all mystical on your ass, the music industry.

00:34:16.556 --> 00:34:17.811
Yeah, it's strange.

00:34:17.811 --> 00:34:18.534
Strange, isn't it?

00:34:18.534 --> 00:34:23.172
Because on paper it should look like well, what, what do you mean?

00:34:23.172 --> 00:34:23.434
Why?

00:34:23.434 --> 00:34:25.543
Why do you keep smashing your life up on drugs?

00:34:25.543 --> 00:34:33.132
Young, you, you're flying around the world, you're, you're doing amazing, because I used to do amazing projects in the music industry.

00:34:33.132 --> 00:34:35.896
Like I forget about a lot of the projects I did.

00:34:35.896 --> 00:34:41.755
I did a project for this lady called sasha wears, I think, or wearing something like that.

00:34:41.755 --> 00:34:44.440
Her boss was who's the geezer?

00:34:44.440 --> 00:34:46.293
Who's married to kate winslet, or used to be.

00:34:46.896 --> 00:35:06.114
Oh, I'm terrible with things but you know some big, big hollywood dude that was her boss and and I was like music director of this french play in l and stuff, just loads of random stuff I used to put in music to like adverts or brands, and on paper that should be like whoa, you're living the best life.

00:35:06.371 --> 00:35:07.750
What's that thing we see on Facebook?

00:35:07.929 --> 00:35:09.456
Oh living my best life and all that.

00:35:11.690 --> 00:35:12.813
But internally.

00:35:12.813 --> 00:35:22.298
That's where the peace, the peace and real joy doesn't come from the external, and I had a conversation this morning about this.

00:35:22.298 --> 00:35:28.018
There's no human person or thing that can give me real peace or joy.

00:35:28.018 --> 00:35:29.210
It can give me temporary.

00:35:29.210 --> 00:35:35.356
Temporary, yeah, but then I feel restless again do you think?

00:35:35.449 --> 00:35:42.894
well, actually, I suppose, what advice would you give to, to artists and creatives who are trying to stay sober in those environments?

00:35:42.894 --> 00:35:49.358
Because I remember there was a looking at like the culture in place, like a beefer and DJing.

00:35:49.358 --> 00:36:03.889
There was a song by, I think it was called Mike Posner, and it's like I a pill in a beaver.

00:36:03.889 --> 00:36:06.179
I think that's like the opening line to show avicii I was cool and avicii being you know one of the top djs again.

00:36:06.099 --> 00:36:06.778
Um, you know, passed away himself.

00:36:06.778 --> 00:36:07.894
I think that was related to substance misuse as well, wasn't it?

00:36:07.894 --> 00:36:14.003
So what advice would you give to artists who are in those environments that are maybe feeling that peer pressure to partake in substance misuse as well?

00:36:15.612 --> 00:36:16.655
it's a tricky one, isn't it?

00:36:16.655 --> 00:36:34.615
Because if it's all around you, particularly if you're DJing or you're testing music out, you're in a nighttime environment where you want to stay awake and you know ketamine's a massive epidemic right now amongst young people right.

00:36:34.615 --> 00:36:36.494
And cocaine is.

00:36:36.494 --> 00:36:40.152
You know, we used to call cocaine a drug for people who don't like drugs.

00:36:40.152 --> 00:36:51.300
Yeah, right, because we used to do a lot of acid and a lot of ecstasy and all sorts of stuff that you kind of fully committed for 10 hours or whatever.

00:36:51.860 --> 00:37:13.266
And cocaine this stuff came and oh, you can just do a line and sort of just get on with your everyday business sort of thing but then obviously it escalates, and so any advice look, I don't think there's anything you could say that's going to stop people from doing what they're doing it would be like me being Nancy Reagan, just say no kids, it's going to fuck your life up.

00:37:13.266 --> 00:37:14.028
Excuse my language.

00:37:14.068 --> 00:37:15.525
No, no, no, Mother, welcome to you.

00:37:16.800 --> 00:37:17.967
I don't swear a lot these days.

00:37:17.967 --> 00:37:19.144
I used to swear all the time.

00:37:19.144 --> 00:37:26.282
We can only sort of show people, but do we?

00:37:26.282 --> 00:37:30.230
Because, look, the majority are not drug addicts and they'll probably grow out of it.

00:37:30.230 --> 00:37:31.943
Yeah, that's the thing that's it.

00:37:31.963 --> 00:37:35.090
Because some people can use, yeah, recreationally.

00:37:35.090 --> 00:37:37.585
I think that's the misconception around drug use.

00:37:37.585 --> 00:37:39.472
Not all drug use leads to dependency.

00:37:39.472 --> 00:37:47.880
No, no, there's a lot of people, I think, talking about adverse childhood experiences, traumas, depending on the reason for substance, misuse.

00:37:47.880 --> 00:37:55.981
Some people, in the same way that I can pick up a beer after one and be fine, I'm aware that people of alcohol dependency uh, alcoholics can't do that.

00:37:56.202 --> 00:38:10.592
Yeah, some people can just do a line of cocaine every other week and it not turn into a dependency, definitely, and and you can have and this is where it gets, maybe, blurry you can have a hard drug user and a drug addict.

00:38:10.592 --> 00:38:15.585
They both look the same on paper, they're both using the same amount of drugs.

00:38:15.585 --> 00:38:26.300
Let's say a lot of drugs and say the doctor said to them if you continue using I don't know, something's going to happen really bad to your body, whatever.

00:38:26.300 --> 00:38:29.425
So I know what I'm going to throw you in a detox unit.

00:38:29.425 --> 00:38:32.371
They come out of the detox unit.

00:38:32.931 --> 00:38:40.989
The hard drug user, on that information from the doctor, will be able to stay stopped, but the drug addict won't.

00:38:40.989 --> 00:38:51.293
Because the drug addict's got this mind that will eventually always twist and in that moment where I'll say, oh, I can just have one, it'll be different this time.

00:38:51.293 --> 00:39:04.681
They're unable to bring that information from the doctor like, yeah, but if you do that you'll die, unable to yeah, the mind can't save them at certain times, whereas the hard drug user that the brain isn't like that.

00:39:05.021 --> 00:39:17.753
they're able because I I used with with guys over the years in my 20s and 30s that went at it hard but when they kind of fell in love, had kids, they grew out of it.

00:39:17.753 --> 00:39:23.253
As the drug addict grows into it, regardless of the consequences that are happening in their life.

00:39:23.253 --> 00:39:26.610
They just cannot stop and cannot stay stopped.

00:39:26.860 --> 00:39:32.048
I like that they're growing out of it and growing into it, because that is something that does happen, that I don't think we give enough attention to.

00:39:32.429 --> 00:39:37.088
So you've worked in treatment centers, uh, experienced multiple rehabs, as you mentioned earlier.

00:39:37.088 --> 00:39:44.309
Um, if you could change one thing about how addiction treatment is approached today, what would it be?

00:39:44.309 --> 00:39:52.766
And do you think the system truly supports long-term recovery, thinking of services like this?

00:39:52.766 --> 00:39:55.949
You talked about that experience you had in the reception area earlier.

00:39:55.949 --> 00:40:03.947
Looking at the bigger picture, so not just, I suppose, ark House and where you're working, yeah, sort of frontline.

00:40:06.061 --> 00:40:07.405
That's a big question, isn't it?

00:40:07.405 --> 00:40:08.268
That's a big question.

00:40:08.980 --> 00:40:10.286
Luckily there's no wrong answer to it.

00:40:10.286 --> 00:40:11.021
There isn't, is there?

00:40:11.061 --> 00:40:14.389
because if, if we could work it out, yeah, it'd be done.

00:40:14.449 --> 00:40:15.351
It's so complex, isn't it?

00:40:16.739 --> 00:40:17.481
so complex.

00:40:17.481 --> 00:40:19.987
What always breaks my heart?

00:40:19.987 --> 00:40:25.744
When I see people parked on methadone for years and years, you know it really does.

00:40:25.744 --> 00:40:27.927
I, I think shouldn't we be aiming higher?

00:40:27.927 --> 00:40:29.490
Shouldn't we be?

00:40:29.490 --> 00:40:33.302
Because it just keeps you in this mindset of a drug addict having to.

00:40:33.302 --> 00:40:45.561
You know the dignity that's taken from you when you have to wait in a chemist and you have to go in a special room or people are watching you while you have to take it, and I know, look, it's no one's fault, it just is what it?

00:40:45.661 --> 00:40:45.760
is.

00:40:45.760 --> 00:40:56.128
I'm not blaming anyone, but for me abstinence is the way forward, and I understand harm reduction.

00:40:56.128 --> 00:40:56.648
I get that.

00:40:56.648 --> 00:41:04.775
I get that there's a space for all of it, but yeah, it's a really difficult question, isn't it?

00:41:04.775 --> 00:41:06.177
Have you ever worked in prisons?

00:41:09.460 --> 00:41:25.467
I go into them to speak, but I haven't worked in them Because one of the things that I again, no one's ever really answered this for me, but when people are in prison for like five plus years or whatever, and they come out and it's a transfer of care on a methadone program, Now I know you can get drugs in prison.

00:41:25.467 --> 00:41:32.885
I'm not naive to that, but I often think surely that's an ideal place to get off a methadone prescription.

00:41:32.885 --> 00:41:35.847
Absolutely I don't understand how that happens.

00:41:35.847 --> 00:41:40.144
That's something that I personally think is a massive failing of the system, and I'm not.

00:41:41.280 --> 00:41:44.724
I was going to say I'm not right wing, I'm not any wing, hopefully, but this might sound.

00:41:44.724 --> 00:41:49.101
It might sound really harsh If it was down to me, if it might sound really harsh.

00:41:49.101 --> 00:41:54.065
If it was down to me, if someone went into prison, I would be mandatory that they have to go for a detox.

00:41:54.065 --> 00:41:55.306
You don't get a choice, mate.

00:41:55.987 --> 00:41:58.329
Absolutely, because I just think it makes sense.

00:41:58.329 --> 00:42:08.858
There's less of the temptation, there's less access to it, and I think you can really, if there's ever a time to work on yourself, it's ideal In those environments, isn't environments?

00:42:08.918 --> 00:42:09.157
ideal.

00:42:09.157 --> 00:42:10.039
You've got nothing else.

00:42:10.039 --> 00:42:11.706
What else are you gonna do?

00:42:11.706 --> 00:42:14.255
Watch tv and waste a few years and but it's, it's.

00:42:14.255 --> 00:42:17.525
Yeah, it's a question that I I'm a bit like I don't really know.

00:42:17.525 --> 00:42:18.929
Do you know what?

00:42:19.028 --> 00:42:24.489
I mean, I don't know, I, I, there's just me sat here expecting you to know everything, about everything.

00:42:24.789 --> 00:42:32.728
But you know, things like we've got to look at what's been working and what hasn't worked for all these years.

00:42:32.728 --> 00:42:37.072
Things like, okay, keep a Drinks Diary, how's that going?

00:42:37.072 --> 00:42:39.226
But that's the best we can do.

00:42:39.226 --> 00:42:42.829
I'm going to just repeat something that hasn't been working.

00:42:42.829 --> 00:42:51.070
So let's put the stuff on the table what's working and because, what are we seeing as success?

00:42:51.070 --> 00:43:02.824
You know, I know there's a lot of figures and that to get funding and everything, but really, if we delved into it, who's clean and sober for five years, 10 years, 20 years, or is it this series of?

00:43:02.824 --> 00:43:04.971
Because it costs a lot of money, doesn't it?

00:43:05.139 --> 00:43:07.081
You know, I've cost the taxpayer a lot of money.

00:43:07.081 --> 00:43:11.565
One of the things that I'm doing today by me helping all these people.

00:43:11.565 --> 00:43:14.369
It's kind of my amends to the taxpayer and society.

00:43:14.369 --> 00:43:21.614
Yeah, give back yeah, but you know, so many are dying right, so many are dying from this illness, absolutely, and they don't have to.

00:43:21.614 --> 00:43:23.257
That's the thing.

00:43:24.481 --> 00:43:28.244
Yeah, going back to yourself working as a DJ.

00:43:28.244 --> 00:43:28.706
Do you know?

00:43:28.706 --> 00:43:31.307
That was your identity?

00:43:31.307 --> 00:43:34.552
It was tied to being a DJ, a drug dealer and an addict.

00:43:34.552 --> 00:43:45.771
How did you navigate that shift in identity and was there ever a point where you struggled with who you are without drugs?

00:43:45.771 --> 00:43:49.746
And the reason why I say this is because I had a guy I was working with before and he said once he'd got clean, he went.

00:43:49.746 --> 00:43:50.568
I feel naked.

00:43:50.568 --> 00:43:51.360
He went.

00:43:51.360 --> 00:43:52.766
I feel like everybody's looking at me.

00:43:52.766 --> 00:43:57.224
I said the chances are people were looking at you more when you was on drugs.

00:43:57.224 --> 00:44:00.409
He went, yeah, but now he said I just feel bare.

00:44:00.409 --> 00:44:03.061
Does that resonate with yourself?

00:44:09.329 --> 00:44:15.635
Yeah, I didn't know what I was going to become.

00:44:15.635 --> 00:44:19.786
I didn't know.

00:44:19.786 --> 00:44:25.059
You know, like you said, I'd used drugs and alcohol from the age of 11 to 43.

00:44:25.199 --> 00:44:25.579
That's what I mean.

00:44:25.579 --> 00:44:27.547
It was a massive part of my identity.

00:44:29.181 --> 00:45:01.228
I didn't know a different me, you know, and when we say a huge part of my identity, particularly before the heroin and crack cocaine, it was like this real, you know, on that, on the acid house scene and and all that sort of stuff, we were like a tribe, it was new, it was no different from the mods and the rockers and all this when at first we we would just felt this real like connection and it was all kind of a tapestry of of drugs going all through through it and so.

00:45:03.432 --> 00:45:06.800
But like we've talked about, we've we've kind of talked about.

00:45:06.800 --> 00:45:11.612
You know, the majority of people can, can use that without it being a problem.

00:45:11.612 --> 00:45:18.751
But I'm a drug addict so it starts being my medication for life.

00:45:18.751 --> 00:45:23.369
So when I take out my medication, think about it.

00:45:23.369 --> 00:45:24.545
Any illness that you have.

00:45:24.545 --> 00:45:33.045
If you were taking some medication to stop an illness and now you just decided to stop taking it, you're not going to suddenly feel better.

00:45:33.387 --> 00:45:34.309
You're going to feel worse.

00:45:35.360 --> 00:45:53.067
So my experiences of being coming out of detoxes or other treatment settings where I hadn't been through this change or didn't continue to go through change by living this new way of life, I did feel very naked and I did feel very exposed and I relate to what your friend talked about.

00:45:53.067 --> 00:46:02.072
And this time I didn't feel like that so much but I still I was a bit unsure of what am I?

00:46:02.072 --> 00:46:04.166
What's my identity?

00:46:05.360 --> 00:46:08.170
What was that process like then, in finding yourself, I guess?

00:46:08.170 --> 00:46:09.262
What sort of things did you?

00:46:09.262 --> 00:46:13.652
You talked about yoga and, I guess, going back to the spirituality of it.

00:46:13.652 --> 00:46:15.766
But what is that process?

00:46:15.766 --> 00:46:19.885
Was you surprised by anything that you found out about yourself during that sobriety?

00:46:19.885 --> 00:46:20.860
I?

00:46:20.940 --> 00:46:39.896
was, and I still am, absolutely, absolutely, especially coming out of so many years of really dark, hardcore drug addiction and alcoholism almost you know I use this phrase a lot.

00:46:39.896 --> 00:46:47.592
I feel like I've been reborn, literally, like coming out of some water like wow, breathing yeah.

00:46:47.592 --> 00:46:49.788
You know I talk about this a lot.

00:46:49.788 --> 00:46:57.342
You know I talk about this a lot.

00:46:57.362 --> 00:47:01.708
What it feels like is I have the eyes of a five-year-old child today like looking at a rainbow for the first time.

00:47:01.708 --> 00:47:02.990
Oh my god, wow.

00:47:02.990 --> 00:47:04.032
I feel like that.

00:47:04.032 --> 00:47:05.641
On one hand, I do.

00:47:05.641 --> 00:47:07.565
I feel like I get like that.

00:47:09.690 --> 00:47:16.806
But I'm finally a man, not just like in a man's body, but with a boy's brain, like a child's brain.

00:47:16.806 --> 00:47:19.260
Yeah, because it's said a lot, isn't it the addict alcoholic?

00:47:19.260 --> 00:47:23.827
We stop our emotional development and we see that working amongst people in it.

00:47:23.827 --> 00:47:28.326
We see it, yeah, yeah, yeah, I react like a kid and oh, I don't want to do this and you know I fight.

00:47:29.327 --> 00:47:37.059
But this transformation, and that's what I'm amazed at, I used to take myself so seriously, life so seriously.

00:47:37.059 --> 00:47:40.630
I used to feel like the life was just this heavy burden to wear.

00:47:40.630 --> 00:47:42.503
Oh, my God, have you seen this?

00:47:42.503 --> 00:47:44.570
What's happening in the world and all that.

00:47:44.570 --> 00:47:49.092
And so I'm really surprised by these new eyes that I've been given.

00:47:49.092 --> 00:47:52.365
I didn't expect it, I didn't know what to expect.

00:47:52.365 --> 00:47:57.432
I just wanted to stop relapsing and stop ending up in places like this and treatment.

00:47:57.432 --> 00:48:09.813
And then I guess what happened, as I started to kind of wake up a little bit, I guess, is that I started seeing that there was more to just being sober.

00:48:09.813 --> 00:48:15.510
There was more on offer, almost like the light switch is going on.

00:48:15.510 --> 00:48:16.724
The dimmer switch is going on.

00:48:16.724 --> 00:48:21.365
Maybe I could have a normal life, maybe I could pay tax.00:48:21.619 --> 00:48:23.927


Well, I didn't say that, but let's not go too heavy.00:48:23.927 --> 00:48:31.929


But it's starting to think about those things, spirituality being one of the topics of today.00:48:31.929 --> 00:48:37.351


What does spirituality mean to you today, in this moment?00:48:37.552 --> 00:48:37.833


Okay.00:48:37.833 --> 00:48:41.751


So it's the most important part of my being today.00:48:41.751 --> 00:48:58.092


On a most basic level, it means that every single person I'm going to come across today, I'm going to try and be kind, loving, patient, tolerant and useful.00:48:58.092 --> 00:49:04.128


In a real nutshell, it's not all about going up a mountain praying or whatever.00:49:04.128 --> 00:49:10.173


Yeah, that'd be great, but how am I showing up in life, in with the people around me?00:49:10.173 --> 00:49:16.047


Can I find compassion in the person who's really challenging?00:49:16.047 --> 00:49:24.572


Can I see through their humanness and see them as just a really sick individual rather than an annoying individual, you know?00:49:24.672 --> 00:49:25.393


can I do that?00:49:25.880 --> 00:49:27.505


how useful am I being today?00:49:27.505 --> 00:49:30.112


How am I growing on these spiritual lines?00:49:30.112 --> 00:49:35.349


And I didn't know I was going to end up in this place when I came in.00:49:35.349 --> 00:49:36.333


Yeah, you know.00:49:38.141 --> 00:49:41.652


With 12-step programs, there is obviously the spirituality element of it.00:49:41.652 --> 00:49:44.266


Some people really struggle with that.00:49:44.266 --> 00:49:47.188


Was there resistance from you at first?00:49:47.188 --> 00:49:56.311


Because I think when we first spoke about it you'd gone through, you'd gone to some meetings, then you stopped and then you relapsed and obviously at one point it works, doesn't it?00:49:56.311 --> 00:50:00.976


The penny drops Was there resistance from you with it at first?00:50:00.976 --> 00:50:04.442


And if so, what did?00:50:04.501 --> 00:50:12.827


that look like so, for those 10 years when I was just going to meetings, relapsing because, remember, the meetings are not the program.00:50:12.847 --> 00:50:13.650


They're just one part.00:50:14.081 --> 00:50:15.626


I didn't understand what the program was.00:50:15.626 --> 00:50:27.170


I didn't even really think about those 12 steps where it says the word God, because that's the word that people are so resistant against.00:50:27.170 --> 00:50:31.811


And when people say to me because because, look, I'll say god all day long.00:50:31.811 --> 00:50:39.215


But when I say that word, what does the mind automatically go to?00:50:39.215 --> 00:50:45.047


If I said god, christianity, christianity I'm not, I'm not talking about a christian god.00:50:45.047 --> 00:50:49.847


I'm just using it as a word to try and describe the undescribable.00:50:50.268 --> 00:50:51.291


Yeah, you know what?00:50:51.351 --> 00:50:58.835


I mean, I like that.00:50:58.835 --> 00:51:07.525


Yeah, and we talk about this is a spiritual program, not a religious one, because often people will go straight well, I don't like God and I don't believe in God.00:51:07.525 --> 00:51:08.710


And I'll say well, what is God?00:51:08.710 --> 00:51:11.940


You know well, I don't like God and I don't believe in God.00:51:11.940 --> 00:51:15.242


And I'll say well, what is God?00:51:15.242 --> 00:51:18.804


All I know is that this time, going back to your question I had no resistance.00:51:18.804 --> 00:51:21.146


I was so broken.00:51:21.146 --> 00:51:23.047


And why I had no resistance?00:51:23.827 --> 00:51:34.351


Because when I go to one meeting and someone is saying I used to be broken like you, young, I live in these 12 steps.00:51:34.351 --> 00:51:38.534


I've had a spiritual awakening which just means transformation and change.00:51:38.534 --> 00:51:41.135


Like I've said to you, I used to be very angry and I'm not.00:51:41.135 --> 00:51:42.416


There's transformation and change.00:51:42.416 --> 00:51:44.597


I used to struggle with life.00:51:44.597 --> 00:51:45.277


I don't today.00:51:45.277 --> 00:52:03.893


When one person says it, I might be because the words seem strange, and then I go to another city and another geyser says it, and then I go to another city and then I get on these beautiful zoo meetings and I go to a meeting in new york and another, oh, maybe what I do know?00:52:03.893 --> 00:52:09.588


I don't know this thing they're talking about, but what I do know is I don't want what I've got anymore.00:52:09.588 --> 00:52:11.331


That's all I know.00:52:11.331 --> 00:52:14.215


And someone said have your own experience young.00:52:14.215 --> 00:52:20.702


And someone said this to me and I say it to my guys that I work with.00:52:20.722 --> 00:52:44.387


He said if you launch yourself in to this program, what we do here with as much enthusiasm as you did when you were out there using and drinking if you do that for six months and you don't like the sobriety, joy, peace, sense of purpose and direction and meaning that you'll find in your life the drug dealer's still waiting for you.00:52:44.387 --> 00:52:51.027


They haven't shut up shop because oh, let's stop selling crack, because young stopped using the boozer's still on the corner.00:52:51.027 --> 00:52:53.445


You can have your misery back, young, if you want it.00:52:54.186 --> 00:52:57.585


Don't have to have it, and this is the thing Not everyone is going to be.00:52:57.585 --> 00:53:02.842


You have to be desperate man, and this isn't new, is it Like?00:53:02.842 --> 00:53:15.766


There's many instances documented of people not even drug addicts or alcoholics who who've had like near-death experiences and have had spiritual experiences and their life has been changed Many, many, many, many.00:53:15.766 --> 00:53:28.248


And I think it's like that with us drug addicts and alcoholics, we have almost near-death experiences which kind of help us to seek something we don't really understand.00:53:32.300 --> 00:53:42.981


Since your first episode aired, we had nearly a quarter of a million engagements across all platforms on your preview clip, and by far one of the most talked about topics has been this idea of being recovered rather than being in recovery.00:53:42.981 --> 00:53:47.860


Some people found it inspiring, while others challenged the idea, saying addiction is a lifelong battle.00:53:47.860 --> 00:53:57.726


One thing you said that really resonated was I love being in this state of recovered, so I don't take my foot off the spiritual ghast, and it doesn't mean cured.00:53:57.726 --> 00:54:06.880


Can you expand on what being recovered means to you and how do you balance that mindset while maintaining the work needed to stay in a good place?00:54:06.981 --> 00:54:10.190


and it's a very good question and it and it's one that comes up a lot.00:54:10.190 --> 00:54:20.588


So in the book Alcoholics Anonymous I'm not saying I'm in that fellowship, I'm just saying in the book, it only uses the word recovered.00:54:21.139 --> 00:54:34.889


So if you study the book and you see that it doesn't use the word recovering, the first page when you open it up it says the story of how 100 men and women have recovered from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body.00:54:34.889 --> 00:54:41.851


Now I think where the confusion lies with people is that they're mistaking that word for cured.00:54:41.851 --> 00:54:50.923


I'm never going to be cured and what that means is I've always got the allergy what we mean by an allergy.00:54:50.923 --> 00:54:57.369


If I put that into me and it's vodka now, I couldn't just have one and be satisfied.00:54:57.369 --> 00:55:03.400


Something would go off in me and I would want more and more, and then by the end of the night I'd be smoking crack cocaine.00:55:03.400 --> 00:55:05.724


So I'm not cured of that.00:55:06.644 --> 00:55:13.094


What we recovered from is this mental twist of the mind that used to always, because that's real.00:55:13.094 --> 00:55:21.411


When we talk in 12-step circles about powerlessness, often if I speak to people and I say, what do you understand by that?00:55:21.411 --> 00:55:25.311


They will always say, well, once I put one in, I can't stop.00:55:25.311 --> 00:55:28.726


But that's not the real power, that is a powerlessness.00:55:28.726 --> 00:55:31.463


But if that was your problem, what would be the solution?00:55:31.463 --> 00:55:33.489


Just stop, yeah.00:55:33.489 --> 00:55:34.652


Well, why can't you?00:55:34.652 --> 00:55:41.793


Because I've got a mind that that would put this thought into my head and convince me I can just have one today.00:55:41.793 --> 00:55:44.460


That's the real powerlessness I've got.00:55:44.460 --> 00:55:48.344


You know, a drug addict and alcoholic take drugs and alcohol out of them.00:55:48.344 --> 00:55:49.766


They're like a ticking time bomb.00:55:49.766 --> 00:55:53.311


They've got no idea when that's kind of come into their head.00:55:53.311 --> 00:55:56.614


Did I use my Terminator analogy last time?00:55:56.614 --> 00:55:57.215


I don't know.00:55:59.780 --> 00:56:01.461


Just go again please.00:56:02.682 --> 00:56:08.989


So I often talk about this powerlessness and I relate it to the Terminator.00:56:08.989 --> 00:56:12.333


You know the film from the 80s Great film yeah absolutely.00:56:12.353 --> 00:56:13.936


Terminator 2 is one of my favourite films.00:56:13.936 --> 00:56:14.876


It's great, great film.00:56:16.059 --> 00:56:19.585


Now the Terminator didn't care.00:56:19.585 --> 00:56:24.132


If you're having a good day, a bad day, what your emotions were, Didn't care.00:56:24.132 --> 00:56:24.673


You'd had enough.00:56:24.673 --> 00:56:25.735


Please leave me alone.00:56:25.735 --> 00:56:27.945


What was his catchphrase?00:56:28.847 --> 00:56:29.530


Hasta la vista.00:56:31.360 --> 00:56:31.701


No, leave me alone.00:56:31.701 --> 00:56:31.800


What?00:56:31.800 --> 00:56:32.362


What was his catchphrase?00:56:32.362 --> 00:56:32.844


Hasta la vista.00:56:32.844 --> 00:56:33.445


No, the other one, I'll be back.00:56:33.445 --> 00:56:33.726


I'll be back.00:56:33.726 --> 00:56:34.068


There we go.00:56:34.068 --> 00:56:35.472


Yeah, his catchphrase wasn't, I might be back.00:56:35.472 --> 00:56:39.768


Yeah, oh, you've had a detox now I won't be back oh you've had six months in rehab.00:56:39.849 --> 00:56:41.213


I want it was, I'll be back.00:56:41.213 --> 00:56:45.684


Yeah, now any drug addict or alcoholic will know that's true.00:56:45.684 --> 00:56:53.568


Without, without a recovery program, right, I take drugs and alcohol out of me.00:56:53.568 --> 00:57:00.286


And drugs and alcohol have never said go and have a lovely life, I'm going to leave you alone now.00:57:00.286 --> 00:57:02.447


You've learned enough about relapse prevention.00:57:02.447 --> 00:57:05.369


You've learned enough about triggers and all these kind of nonsense things.00:57:05.369 --> 00:57:09.847


The thought always comes back.00:57:09.847 --> 00:57:12.963


I'll be back, just standing at my door.00:57:12.963 --> 00:57:16.407


You know, I can't even remember the question we were talking about.00:57:16.820 --> 00:57:17.443


I suppose it's.00:57:17.443 --> 00:57:18.967


When does recovery become?00:57:18.987 --> 00:57:19.168


recovery.00:57:19.168 --> 00:57:19.769


Oh yeah, oh, that was.00:57:19.769 --> 00:57:21.224


I went off on the right tangent there.00:57:21.284 --> 00:57:23.490


No, no it's right, though, what you're saying is all relevant.00:57:23.639 --> 00:57:27.231


So it's very different from being cured, recovered.00:57:27.231 --> 00:57:38.202


A drug addict and alcoholic relapses because they're a drug addict and alcoholic.00:57:38.202 --> 00:57:41.235


Without a program, I I relapse.00:57:41.235 --> 00:57:44.184


My mind twists, you know I'll be back, sort of thing.00:57:44.184 --> 00:57:47.793


Yeah, um, I've recovered from that twist of the mind.00:57:47.793 --> 00:57:48.474


That's what we.00:57:48.474 --> 00:57:49.617


We say yeah.00:57:49.617 --> 00:57:52.670


Now when people say, oh, you'll get, I'll always be recovering.00:57:52.670 --> 00:57:56.619


If you got shot in the arm, would you always be recovering from your gunshot wound?00:57:56.619 --> 00:57:57.442


No, it would heal.00:57:57.621 --> 00:57:58.083


It would heal.00:57:58.871 --> 00:58:02.701


That would be a horrible place to always be recovering, having to watch out where I go.00:58:02.701 --> 00:58:07.297


I wouldn't like to live like that myself, and I know you don't have to if you want this.00:58:07.458 --> 00:58:08.019


You don't have to.00:58:09.829 --> 00:58:15.260


And, like I said last time, because people might say, well, isn't that being cocky, saying that word?00:58:15.260 --> 00:58:17.043


Well, it's really not.00:58:17.043 --> 00:58:29.503


I know what I am, because when people say once an addict, always an addict, or once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic, I misunderstood what they meant.00:58:29.503 --> 00:58:36.764


I thought it meant I'm always going to be struggling, I'm always going to have to be on guard, I'm after.00:58:36.764 --> 00:58:52.123


You know, and and any, any method that that that tries to um shield the drug addict or alcoholic away from the substance is doomed to failure, because we live in a world when it's here right yeah, and and and and.00:58:52.222 --> 00:59:08.780


so, going back to what I was saying, I work with enough drug addicts and alcoholics every day, either in my place of work or outside of work, to see those guys Because you can be recovered and then you can become unrecovered.00:59:08.780 --> 00:59:12.259


Yeah, yeah, I've seen that happen to people, a lot of people.00:59:12.259 --> 00:59:29.880


They're in recovery, doing the things they need to do, but then after a few years the job gets more important, yeah, the kids more important, the new girlfriend, all those things that never kept them clean and sober before suddenly become the most important thing.00:59:30.702 --> 00:59:41.996


so I'm under no illusions that you know that if you don't practice that daily routine, you yourself could become unrecovered as well, definitely and I'll tell you how we become unrecovered.00:59:43.110 --> 00:59:48.519


I had a chat with someone in an early recovery on the way up here and they were saying why do I still feel like this?00:59:48.519 --> 00:59:52.615


And I said you've been using for so long, you've only been clean a few months.00:59:52.615 --> 01:00:07.538


And what I said to this person was me, without things I do each day, my natural outlook on life can be quite negative and be can be quite anxious and and can become a little bit irritable.01:00:07.538 --> 01:00:16.079


So how we become unrecovered suddenly I don't see those fears that come into my head Suddenly.01:00:16.079 --> 01:00:19.644


When that little old lady cuts me up, I beep at her.01:00:19.644 --> 01:00:21.996


It's the little pebbles in my shoe.01:00:21.996 --> 01:00:27.536


Maybe the relapse is going to happen in four months' time because I'm going to continue.01:00:27.536 --> 01:00:29.036


You're starting to move towards it now?01:00:29.150 --> 01:00:30.697


Absolutely yeah, yeah.01:00:30.697 --> 01:00:33.418


What are some of the things that you're doing in that daily routine then?01:00:33.418 --> 01:00:36.996


Like, obviously is there a bit of advice that you wake up in the morning.01:00:36.996 --> 01:00:39.021


You talked to me a little bit about your routine this morning.01:00:39.021 --> 01:00:40.635


God up hell, you've helped a few people already.01:00:40.635 --> 01:00:45.614


What are the things that you're doing on a day-by-day basis, then that you think is keeping you grounded?01:00:46.416 --> 01:00:49.402


um, so I wake up very early in the morning, like very early.01:00:49.402 --> 01:00:52.335


Yeah, um, I just wake up naturally early.01:00:52.335 --> 01:00:57.161


Um, I pray, I meditate, I read some spiritual literature.01:00:57.161 --> 01:01:00.693


Sometimes I take a few words and I just meditate on those words.01:01:00.693 --> 01:01:04.500


Um, I take people through through the 12 steps.01:01:04.500 --> 01:01:08.860


Yeah, um, I speak to a lot of drug addicts and alcoholics every day.01:01:08.860 --> 01:01:11.309


This is my work, is not my recovery.01:01:11.309 --> 01:01:18.882


Yeah, so I've got to say that because I see a lot of guys in the field relapsing because they think their job is their recovery.01:01:18.983 --> 01:01:19.905


Someone said it before.01:01:19.905 --> 01:01:23.000


They said so many people think that working in recovery is recovery.01:01:23.000 --> 01:01:25.155


It's not, and that was something I found really interesting?01:01:25.175 --> 01:01:26.318


Yeah, it's really not.01:01:26.318 --> 01:01:27.001


It's really not.01:01:27.001 --> 01:01:38.353


I think in some ways and I'm going off the subject slightly people who work in recovery have to have even more solid recovery than the average joe out there, because we're around the illness all day.01:01:38.353 --> 01:01:41.242


We have to have this force field, because else it will seep into us.01:01:41.242 --> 01:01:49.059


Yeah, yeah, because, remember, the illness comes in the attitudes and the behavior and the reactions to life um, I asked her just a quick one.01:01:49.079 --> 01:01:50.824


I had a friend who worked in recovery.01:01:50.824 --> 01:01:58.201


He had a relapse and I should have saw it coming because one of the questions I had someone again as the reason why I do this podcast very inquisitive person.01:01:58.201 --> 01:01:59.202


I asked him.01:01:59.202 --> 01:02:05.313


I said what do you think when you see people like coming in and in the state they're in and you know the influence that they're under?01:02:05.313 --> 01:02:06.659


He went sometimes.01:02:06.659 --> 01:02:11.034


He said I feel like a pity for him, but he said there's other days where I think, god, I could do with a bit of that.01:02:11.034 --> 01:02:19.010


Wow, and I thought that was an interesting point because, as as you just said, then, working in recovery isn't recovery because the temptation's there.01:02:19.010 --> 01:02:25.916


You're hearing about the euphoria that people are experiencing oh, there's a new drug out, it does this.01:02:25.916 --> 01:02:28.797


If you're in recovery, that could be triggering, couldn't it?01:02:29.550 --> 01:02:41.039


Look like we see a lot of people in recovery and working in the field, going back out there, people that have been um, clean and sober for years, not necessarily.01:02:41.039 --> 01:02:42.784


Well, there's a difference.01:02:42.784 --> 01:02:45.552


Yeah, huge, huge difference, isn't there huge difference?01:02:45.652 --> 01:02:48.038


absolutely yeah, um, so I.01:02:48.038 --> 01:02:48.478


I.01:02:48.478 --> 01:02:51.451


I speak to a lot of drug addicts and alcoholics throughout the day.01:02:51.451 --> 01:03:09.362


I do a practice where I'm constantly watching out for things like resentments, fear, worry, anxiety, and when those things crop up in my mind, I pray I speak to someone.01:03:09.362 --> 01:03:10.204


Do you know what?01:03:10.204 --> 01:03:13.934


I was just feeling a bit angry and I get that out.01:03:13.934 --> 01:03:33.856


And and another when I say another person and not another person on the same path, because, say, for example, if I got a resentment, I got angry at my, my ex, let's say that if I phoned up someone who wasn't in recovery an old friend they would perhaps because they like me say oh, isn't she horrible to you?01:03:33.916 --> 01:03:37.050


doesn't she know what you do for the kids and what that does?01:03:37.050 --> 01:03:41.543


Is it if it throws petrol in the flames of my resentment?01:03:41.543 --> 01:03:47.557


Yeah, so I feel justified in being angry, and that can be the worst place for for a person in recovery.01:03:47.557 --> 01:03:54.302


This justified anger because then my eyes start changing again and I start seeing things in a quite a negative way.01:03:55.103 --> 01:04:32.130


So I do things like that and and I think it's key you know this, this wanting to help others, not not because I have to do it or I think it's part of my recovery, but just just wanting to do it, yeah, um, after work, I'm quite lucky I go into this hotel where they have the spa and and, and I meditate in, in and, and I really notice how people not just drug addicts or alcoholics have a tendency to live life outside in, and what I mean by that is when I meditate in their sauna.01:04:32.130 --> 01:04:45.697


People come in and start talking and I spot it because and I'm not looking down because it's me without living the way I live, and they always are moaning about something.01:04:45.697 --> 01:04:48.018


Right, it's like oh my God, it's almost Christmas.01:04:48.018 --> 01:04:49.295


How am I going to afford this?01:04:49.295 --> 01:04:52.199


Or have you seen the American election?01:04:52.199 --> 01:04:57.061


And I think and this really, I ain't looking down.01:04:57.230 --> 01:04:58.155


I used to be like that.01:04:58.471 --> 01:04:59.112


And I didn't know.01:04:59.112 --> 01:05:09.143


I was like that and it's almost like you're in this beautiful surrounding and all you can focus on is what is wrong or?01:05:09.143 --> 01:05:14.300


What might cause you a problem, rather than we talked about being in the moment and enjoying the now.01:05:14.300 --> 01:05:20.898


So if I'm living life by looking outside, that all comes into me and then into my head.01:05:21.219 --> 01:05:21.360


Yeah.01:05:22.291 --> 01:05:36.760


I think there's something with that in the generation we live in, the products of mobile phones, because it's almost like every time I open my phone, something's going on somewhere that is now suddenly affecting my mood in some way.01:05:36.760 --> 01:05:37.786


You talked about the election, reading things about that going on somewhere that is now suddenly, and you know, affecting my mood in somewhere.01:05:37.786 --> 01:05:55.596


You talked about the election, reading things about that and it's like, oh, and it's oh, this is happening to the economy, oh, god, and then and you're constantly getting this fed to you, whereas previously we never had that unless we sat down and watched the telly you know there was something going about a meme, um, that I saw was before.01:05:55.615 --> 01:06:05.242


The internet was a place where we escaped, and now the idea is that we come away from the internet to escape, because it's just constantly everywhere.01:06:05.242 --> 01:06:15.985


One last thing that I want to ask from yourself is one of my friends who was in recovery said something quite interesting around the idea of addiction being a disease.01:06:15.985 --> 01:06:17.856


He went it's not a disease, cancer's a disease.01:06:17.856 --> 01:06:18.237


He being a disease.01:06:18.237 --> 01:06:19.181


He went it's not a disease, cancer's a disease.01:06:19.181 --> 01:06:19.362


He went.01:06:19.362 --> 01:06:20.568


You know, addiction's not a disease.01:06:20.568 --> 01:06:22.092


And he talked about um.01:06:22.092 --> 01:06:25.739


He said people, um, don't choose to have cancer.01:06:25.739 --> 01:06:27.101


And I was like I get what.01:06:27.101 --> 01:06:35.333


I got what he was saying, but it still didn't sit right with me and I couldn't really verbalize or explain why it didn't sit right to me.01:06:35.333 --> 01:06:40.217


As someone with your experience, what's your opinion on the idea of addiction being a disease?01:06:40.217 --> 01:06:41.141


Do you agree with that?01:06:41.141 --> 01:06:46.378


And two, how would you sort of counter that argument when people talk about comparing it to something like?01:06:46.858 --> 01:06:47.320


cancer.01:06:47.320 --> 01:06:50.195


Yeah, I think it's an illness.01:06:50.195 --> 01:06:55.438


Yeah, and you understand, you understand his position.01:06:55.438 --> 01:07:07.179


Yeah, because on the outside you've got people robbing, stealing, you know, causing havoc on whatever straining to society, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.01:07:07.179 --> 01:07:11.489


And again it's easy to point the finger and say look at these sort of people.01:07:11.793 --> 01:07:12.909


Well, I think what was interesting about that one?01:07:12.909 --> 01:07:14.900


He's the one that's in recovery from cocaine addiction Right, but it was me.01:07:14.900 --> 01:07:20.097


That one that's in recovery from cocaine addiction Right, but it was me that I'm not in recovery, but I'm the one who was like this doesn't sit right.01:07:20.097 --> 01:07:22.289


So look, that's what made it even more confusing.01:07:22.329 --> 01:07:29.208


Well, you know what that is those cocaine addicts looking down at the heroin addicts.01:07:30.032 --> 01:07:33.092


It's interesting though it is, it is the hierarchy within the drug use.01:07:33.092 --> 01:07:35.376


We can laugh at it, but there is, there is that, yeah.01:07:35.717 --> 01:07:38.242


Um, it's like, well, I'm not that bad.01:07:38.242 --> 01:07:43.851


Yeah, but what about your friends and family that are still as worried about you as they are the heroin addict?01:07:43.851 --> 01:07:52.432


But I guess, going back to the question with, say, a cancer sufferer, no one's getting down on them?01:07:52.793 --> 01:07:55.300


yeah, no one's saying you've got cancer, pull yourself together.01:07:55.300 --> 01:07:59.039


You made a choice and we understand why they do that with drug addicts and alcoholics?01:07:59.039 --> 01:08:03.356


Because because we cause havoc in people's lives and they don't understand why.01:08:03.356 --> 01:08:10.001


And and sometimes if you'd ask the drug addict and alcoholic why do you keep on doing this, they would say I don't know.01:08:10.001 --> 01:08:17.764


Yeah, now are you really telling me someone chooses to drink themselves to death?01:08:17.764 --> 01:08:24.960


Are you really saying, like I've worked with guys over the years, the doctor has said if you continue drinking, you will die.01:08:24.960 --> 01:08:26.555


If you continue, you'll die.01:08:26.555 --> 01:08:29.778


And they haven't been able to stay away.01:08:30.050 --> 01:08:32.819


These are people with children, families, loved ones.01:08:32.819 --> 01:08:34.654


Are you telling me they've chosen?01:08:34.654 --> 01:08:38.823


Or they couldn't not drink.01:08:38.823 --> 01:08:46.207


Now, of course, when we first pick up that first drink or that first drug, we're choosing yeah, yeah.01:08:46.207 --> 01:08:50.541


But then I think we cross an invisible line and this illness has got us.01:08:50.541 --> 01:08:51.796


It's like our master.01:08:51.796 --> 01:09:06.381


When it comes calling, I can't not go to it Because, look, let's think about it, you know those addicts and alcoholics who get clean and sober and they're a few years down the line now in jobs et cetera, et cetera.01:09:06.729 --> 01:09:10.881


They're all able, intelligent, lovely people.01:09:10.881 --> 01:09:23.622


If you saw them a few years ago, you're telling me those guys chose to burn their lives to the ground, chose to sit in crack houses nodding out, selling their bodies, et cetera, et cetera.01:09:23.622 --> 01:09:25.796


Or was it this just illness?01:09:25.796 --> 01:09:27.159


They had no power over stopping?01:09:27.159 --> 01:09:30.940


Because if they weren't powerless, why didn't they just stop?01:09:32.511 --> 01:09:33.777


Young, thank you so much for coming on.01:09:33.777 --> 01:09:36.097


I've just got a few questions that I'm going to ask.01:09:36.097 --> 01:09:38.639


I'm just going to try and find them actually, because there should be some.01:09:38.639 --> 01:09:45.694


So let's end all our podcasts with these questions and nothing related to what we've spoken about so far, Just some quickfire questions.01:09:45.694 --> 01:09:47.380


What's your favourite word?01:09:49.770 --> 01:09:52.420


It always throws people off when we go into everything we've spoken about.01:09:52.449 --> 01:10:01.203


And then we come into this my favourite word, recovered, least favourite word Triggers.01:10:03.073 --> 01:10:10.034


Tell me something that excites you, what excites me?01:10:10.034 --> 01:10:10.818


The Indian Ocean.01:10:11.198 --> 01:10:16.698


Nice, tell me something that doesn't excite you.01:10:16.698 --> 01:10:17.219


What?01:10:17.260 --> 01:10:18.202


doesn't excite me.01:10:18.202 --> 01:10:20.210


I'm a very excitable person these days.01:10:20.210 --> 01:10:21.375


What doesn't excite?01:10:21.375 --> 01:10:32.658


Me something where you just go, oh god, just I don't know a middle of the road car.01:10:34.135 --> 01:10:35.118


I just couldn't think of anything.01:10:35.118 --> 01:10:36.975


It sounds boring.01:10:36.975 --> 01:10:38.761


I can see how that's not excitable at all.01:10:38.761 --> 01:10:41.097


Tell me a sound or noise that you love.01:10:43.036 --> 01:10:44.000


I love drums and bass.01:10:44.610 --> 01:10:46.738


Tell me a, a sound or noise that you hate.01:10:46.738 --> 01:10:47.581


Duck, quack.01:10:47.581 --> 01:10:49.457


What's your favourite curse word?01:10:49.457 --> 01:10:55.775


Cunt nice and if you wasn't doing the profession that you do do, what would you like to attempt?01:10:57.154 --> 01:10:59.756


I might make music again nice young.01:10:59.796 --> 01:11:01.529


Thank you so much for coming on the believing people podcast.01:11:01.529 --> 01:11:03.189


You have been absolutely fantastic.01:11:03.189 --> 01:11:04.215


Thank you, guys.01:11:04.215 --> 01:11:10.409


I love that, and if you've enjoyed this episode of the believing people podcast, we'd love for you to share it with others who might find it meaningful.01:11:10.409 --> 01:11:13.270


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