Secret Drug Addict: Anonymous Recovery, Ego and Breaking Free from Addiction

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_02 0:00

This is a renewed original recording. Hello and welcome to season 3 of Believe in People, the British podcast award-winning series exploring addiction, recovery, and the stigma that surrounds them. I'm Matthew Butler, your host, or as I like to say, your facilitator. Today's guest is known only as the Secret Drug Addict, author of the Diary of a Secret Drug Addict, Addiction, Dependence and Recovery, an ex-user's guide to breaking free. Choosing to remain anonymous to bring nearly two decades of recovery into a powerful conversation about addiction stigma, the language we use around users, and why anonymity could be protection rather than shit. We explore social media, dopamine, and the pressure to perform vulnerability on land. Alongside the reality of grief, ego, and what happens when recovery becomes part of identity. This is a story shaped by loss, including a fatal overdose, and the moment of connection replaced isolation in the first 12-step meeting. This is a conversation about truth, accountability, and building a life beyond addiction. Welcome to Believe in People. How's it going? You good? Yeah, I'm good, thank you. Yeah, I'm I've I've been really excited about this one, and not because there's necessarily this who is it behind the you know the title of the secret drug artist by any means. There's just this element for me where I think this podcast series especially is about the stigma of addiction. And I think what I want to start with really is that anonymity versus the stigma. And if we're honest, this podcast is about opening up honest conversations and challenging the stigma around addiction. But by choosing to remain anonymous, do you think that risks reinforcing that same stigma about addiction?

SPEAKER_03 1:39

I think I think some people think that, and maybe with some people it does. I mean, I can't I can't control what people think or feel. You know, that's that's kind of up to them. Yeah. But you know, outside of the the context of social media, I'm quite honest. You know, I'm very honest about about you know being a drug addict. I'm very honest about being in recovery, and you know, but I'll go out to you know I'll go to the pub and someone will say, Oh, do you want to drink? I say, No, I don't drink. I said, Oh, you're driving. I said, No, I'm a drug addict, can't drink. You know, so I'm not it's not you know, it's not private. Yeah. It's just within the realms of sort of social media, I just think it's it's not important kind of who I am. And I don't I struggle with the uh the you know the addiction recovery kind of influences. Yeah. And I just think that it can it can kind of consume you and it can kind of you it ends up kind of defining you. And then, you know, your it w whatever your message is, whatever you're trying to do, it kind of I think that when you put your personality into it, I think you can kind of take away from that. You know, and I didn't want to be social media famous, I didn't want I just want to, you know, help anyone that wants help if I can, and then go back the rest of my day.

SPEAKER_01 2:58

Yeah.

Social Media Addiction And Performance

SPEAKER_03 2:59

And yeah, so that was kind of that was the main reason for it. But yeah, I mean in terms of stigma and stuff, I mean pe you know, people are gonna think and feel whatever they they choose to, of course, yeah. Do you know what I mean? And one of the things I've learned in recovery is to kind of let go of that, and I can't force people to think or feel a certain way about it. Yeah, yeah, I've absolutely they have the right to do that, they have the right to feel you know, they have the right to be wrong, they have the right to you know to whatever.

SPEAKER_02 3:25

Well, we just had a a brief conversation before we started this around social media and the discussion that social media and and drugs are the only thing that refer to its consumers as as users, and I think you mentioned then, which I thought was really poignant, is that there is literally a room full of people talking about how do we get people to stay in tune with things like gambling. You talked about the gimmicks of gambling, you know, you know, if your player comes off, your player comes back on. Again, social media in itself, people are physically like addicted to this stuff.

SPEAKER_03 3:53

Yeah, I mean, yeah, the way they the way they fine-tune algorithms and stuff. It's it I think it's it's I mean it's really unhealthy. Yeah. You know, personally, for for me, it I th I find it really unhealthy. I don't, I don't, I think it's probably one of the worst things that's happened to the human race in in quite a while, if I'm honest, in terms of how it affects people's brains, how you know behaviours, you know, uh you know, I say with some of the kind of influences, or I I mean there was I remember a few years ago there was a mental health influence influence, I'm not quite sure exactly what that means. It just I think they just were speaking about their own mental health issues, right? And they were they videoed themselves, they posted a video of them lying on their bed crying in a dress, they were all dressed up, ready to go out, apparently, and had some mental health crisis. Yeah, filming this, yeah, to show people, and I was just kind of watching it, kind of going, I don't, I'm not sure why you filmed this. If you're in this kind of crisis, you should probably take this off to AE rather than like the first thing you feel to do is get the camera out and it's on a tripod sort of. Yeah, they've got they've got a little ring light going on, like, and I'm just like, I don't know what you're you know, what you're doing. It just felt very kind of performative, you know, and you and you get it with the addiction stuff. Uh you know, they post a picture of themselves before and after. And yet we're, you know, we're we're off, you know, we're often told you can't tell what's going on inside for for for people. You do you know what I mean? Like, you know, you see pictures of someone and it's like they looked happy and two days later they'd killed themselves. Or you know, so it's like these kind of pictures, they don't mean anything. Yeah in that do you know what I mean? It just it just feels like it's for it's for follows, it's for likes.

SPEAKER_02 5:37

I think it's how much people attach their self-worth to social media. That's the part that that that scares me the most is I didn't get enough likes on this video, so therefore I I'm exactly. Do you know? Or do you know sometimes the the delete it and repost it another time and re-record it?

Grief And The Dopamine Trap

SPEAKER_03 5:54

Yeah, or re-record it because they got a word that they got something wrong in there, and it's like it's not authentic, and and it's yeah, I just find all that stuff really unhealthy. And that's the great thing about being anonymous, is that you know, it it doesn't matter, it's not me. So if something goes viral, it goes viral. If it doesn't, if so if someone starts abusing me, yeah, you don't feel like it's abusing you directly. Um there was kind of two incidents around, you know, my my brother died from a drug overdose three years ago, and I wanted to post about it, and obviously I'm anonymous. I have a few real friends that follow my social media accounts, and I wanted to talk about it, but I kind of was like, I why do I want to say it on social media? You know, these people don't know me, they don't know my brother. You know, so I kind of wrote something and I left it in my notes. I just I just wanted to I don't know why, I couldn't work out why I wanted to do it. I ended up posting something on on my Facebook, just so my real friends and family, you know, other you know, extended family, don't ask about my brother, don't ask how my brother's getting on because it'd be like oh like six months ago or and this went on for a couple of weeks and I ended up I ended up I did end up posting something I kind of it was quite vague on on Facebook and it you know and I muted it and you know I checked back on it and it had gone really low, you know, loads of like light, not you know, likes, loads of comments, loads of and I thought about I thought, you know what I wanted, I I wanted to feel good. I wanted to feel I didn't want to feel sad. And some part of my brain knows that when people like my stuff, I feel good. Yeah, do you know what I mean? And it's the dopamine's release, there's a sense of self-aware for something that comes with it. I just didn't want to feel sad in the moment, you know what, you know, and I wanted to change that and social media, and I knew that something something like that would get the kind of likes, do you know what I mean? And I think again, you know, I can post I'll be 19 years sober in two months.

SPEAKER_01 7:57

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 7:58

I'll post something about that, and it will do relatively well. If I posted a relapse on one day back, I'm finding life really hard, that will probably that that would get more engagement. People love a sad story, don't they? They do, and I think that we our brain kind of retains that stuff when we get those those kind of engagements. So you get you'll get people that will post stories and it'll be like I'm I'm having the worst day ever. And I'm like, You you just missed the bus. Yeah, it's not is it really that bad?

Gratitude And Loving A Quiet Life

SPEAKER_02 8:28

Do you know what I mean? Like There's something in in your book where you talk about gratitude, yeah, and and gratitude list and and I think it's always right in the sense of knowing how can I say this? I know there's people that are worse off than me, and knowing people are worse off than me doesn't necessarily make me feel better, but it also doesn't like I don't know, it doesn't validate the way I feel in any way. You know, and it's like, yeah, you know, you're I I'm still allowed to feel depressed even though there's someone in Africa that doesn't have access to clean water.

SPEAKER_03 8:59

Your pain is is your pain, it's all it's you know what I mean. You know, it but then the case is a case of like you know, say like right sizing it, yeah and realising that yeah, it could always be worse. You know, there is always someone worse. You know, there are actually you do have some positive stuff going on, you know, whatever that might be. You know, so it's about looking for that gratitude in those moments as well. Yeah, yeah, I I I think so, because yeah, like I mean life is tough. Life we all find life difficult, but you know, we've also all got something, you know, good going on. Focus on the positive, yeah. Like you know, if you know, you you you you you go into a recovery meeting, say you got no money, you got their job, you know, have you got a roof over your head? You know, you might be, you know, you might be in a hostel, but you're not on the street, yeah. You know, there'd be someone in the meeting that you know takes you out for something to eat afterwards, gives you a call, invites you some. Do you know what I mean? They'd be like, oh, we've got a unity day. Do you want to come? It's like the most depressing things ever, but you know, at like three months sober, three months clean. I'm like, yeah, I'd love to. Well, there's a football competition. You're doing a recovery football competition, yeah. I'll play.

SPEAKER_02 10:05

You know, there's always something focus on something to be positive about, isn't there?

SPEAKER_03 10:11

You know, my life's pretty good. I don't most of the time I don't think it is. You know, but my life, my life is good. I go out, I do stuff, I'm busy, I go to concerts, I go to festivals, I play football a couple of times a week.

SPEAKER_02 10:24

Um you said you said in the book about sometimes taking your sobriety for granted as part of that, gratitude. Yeah. What does that look like?

SPEAKER_03 10:31

Well, you know, you I mean, you take breathing for granted. You know, you know, who genuinely wakes up every day and is grateful to be alive? You know, they might there might be a sense of gratitude when someone around them dies. Yeah. Or if you know, if someone is diagnosed with like a cancer or something, you go, I'm so I'm so glad I haven't been. Glad it's not me. Day to day, who is walking down the street, you know, with the wind on their face, the sun out, feeling grateful. Yeah. Maybe maybe they are, maybe it's just me. I don't know. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 11:05

Maybe it's just maybe I'm just a miserable guy. But there are moments. You're right. You will experience moments of gratitude about life, but I don't think anybody ever wakes up every day and then and do you know what? It this sounds really silly. But do you know when I have like a cold and I can't breathe through my nose and I've got a blocked nose? I sit there and think, God, wouldn't it great when I could breathe through my nose? Do you know what I mean? And it's and then when when my sinuses are cleaning, I'll start, I've completely forgot about how lucky I am to be able to breathe through my nose again. That's it.

SPEAKER_03 11:32

It's only when you don't have it or you're you know you kind of go, do you know what? I mean, I I slipped a couple of discs in my back in my early 30s and was like, you know, thought I was gonna end up with a walk, you know, by the time I get to 50, I'm gonna walk in with a walking stick, I'm all hunched over, and it's not too bad now. I get out and you know, I managed to play football a couple of times a week. Um but there, you know, there was a guy in the meetings, you know, that like had quite serious spinal issues. I was like, grateful, grateful that I just got two slip discs. Do you know what I mean? You know, all sorts of psycha going on, you know. It was like I was really miserable, but I was like, I'm grateful it was just that. So, but so yes, it's only when stuff happens, you're kind of like you're gonna be able to do it.

SPEAKER_02 12:12

Yeah, that's that's when you become grateful.

SPEAKER_03 12:14

But um mainly most of my gratitude these days, I suppose, when I do get it, is is around my daughter when she's doing something.

SPEAKER_02 12:23

Yeah, I saw that in your books again. There's something to be grateful for is just listening to her in a room, uh hearing her in a room listen to music. It's the l it's the little things, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 12:31

Yeah, yeah, be like watching her playing Vidals, like you know, doing voices. I'd be like peering round her bedroom door trying to film her so she can't see, you know, or going to a concert and she's singing along, you know, her school plays, or I'm sat there and I'm like, I'm I'm like literally like I'm gonna cry. I can't, I can't breathe properly. I'm like, you know, I've got a big lump in my throat, and she's just you know, this terrible amateur sort of year five school play, do you know what I mean? Watching her doing a you know a ballet exam stuff, you know, all that kind of that stuff, you know. Sunday mornings is quite a good one as well. In the summer, yeah. Waking up on a Sunday morning, getting the curtains open, having a you know, lying in bed with a coffee and listening to some music. Do you know what I mean? That is like I'm kind of like this is alright.

SPEAKER_02 13:21

These are the things I could relate to because when when you talk about something like the the duller your life is, the happier you are. Yeah nothing that has ever resonated me with like resonated with me so much because that is me down to down to a T. My wife is someone who always wants the weekend comes, it's like, right, come on, let's get up and go, let's go here, let's go have a family day out. And of course I like having family day outs, but I'm also in this element of where I just want to stay at home and do nothing and be completely happy about that. There's something nice about the dull, there's something enjoyable about the dull.

SPEAKER_03 14:01

Yeah, well I just think you can't I mean you know, I'm always looking for excitement, I'm always looking for distraction, I'm always and what I've what I kind of learned early in my recovery is that the you know, you you with heart, you know, with with big highs come big lows, and you know, this stuff is unus is unsustainable, and that what you could what I kind of want is just calm, like it's like a you know, like you look like a heart monitor where it goes up like beeps. I just kind of want a f you know a flat line, you know. And the closer I can get to that, and obviously there's little moments, yeah, you know, so not so much anymore, but um go to the cinema on my own. It's an hour and a half that's you know, I go and play football an hour. But that you know, if I can do that once a week, yeah, happy. That's yeah, I've you know, I'm not you know, I'm I'm I'm doing stuff with my life, I'm not just sort of sat indoors doing nothing, but but to you know, what I wanted before was 16 hours of insane excitement, yeah.

Money Success And The Empty Feeling

SPEAKER_02 15:05

You know, there's there's something about that as well. I think going back to the pressures of social media, where I think and again, I I think this is my my wife's thing. When she sees other families doing stuff, Easter holidays just gone, for instance, was a perfect example of this. Everyone's out and out, everyone's having days out. There's almost like a pressure there. Well, oh, they're doing stuff with their families, they're doing stuff with the kids that make you feel like you have to go and do those things as well. And again, it all comes from this pressure from people that you probably barely know.

SPEAKER_03 15:33

Yeah, I mean I I'm I'm so self-involved, I don't really that stuff doesn't really affect me. Yeah. You know, like what other people are doing. It's you know, it's it's you know, I just care about myself, what you know, what I want to do with my kids or what I you know that's a good place to be because I do feel like I always see people doing stuff, I'm like, God, maybe I should be doing more with my life.

SPEAKER_02 15:54

Look at this person, look at the house they've just bought. And and it's like that again, that that that pressure as well.

SPEAKER_03 15:59

I think I think I was quite lucky that you know, I had some, you know, I had you know, from from le I left school very young, had some good jobs. You know, they weren't particularly well paid, they were fairly well paid, you know, especially for my age, but it came with like a lot of prestige and stuff, you know. You know, I worked with a lot of bands that everyone was like friends of mine, but they were their favourite bands, and so there was that stuff. But so I learned quite early that that you know what I've got, you know, house, you know, money doesn't make me happy. Yeah, having that job, having that it was never enough. You know, I had a I had a three-bedroom house when I was 18, wasn't wasn't happy. I had a five-bedroom house into my 20s, but still wanted to, you know, was still suicidal, was still, you know, entrenched in addiction and self-harming.

SPEAKER_02 16:52

Where do how do how do those two things relate then? Because I think some people often, and you see this, that they've they've got everything that you think they could want, but there's almost like this internal black hole that they're trying to fill with drugs, with substances, with things, with things, materialism.

SPEAKER_03 17:10

I do struggle, I do like things, yeah, I'm not gonna lie, you know. I have kind of I've over the years I've managed to work on it a little bit, but I do see, you know, I do I do buy expensive jackets probably slightly far too often. Yeah. But you know, I think I think generally, I think with that stuff will because they're I don't know, whatever it is that's going on for them. It's like say it's like with social media stuff. If you want to be social media famous, yeah, you're never gonna get enough likes. Yeah, you can never get enough posts out. You can never it can never be enough. You know, the hat if if if you're trying to treat whatever's you know, whatever's lacking inside you, whatever you know your low self-esteem is attached to, that stuff will never be enough. You'll just have a massive house and feel alone in in that house. Yeah. You know, I mean I you know I've got a you know I've got a three-bedroom house now, I've got, you know, got kids, it's not the biggest house. It's big enough. I've got my bedroom, you've got a front room, I've got a kitchen.

SPEAKER_02 18:13

Comes back to that gratitude, doesn't it, as well, being grateful for for what you what you've got there.

Remembering Addiction With Humour

SPEAKER_03 18:17

Yeah, I mean I've you know I lost my I lost I lost a five-bedroom house in recovery, ended up in a hostel, you know, ended back ended up back in for you know first stage rehab, then into a one bedroom, and then from there, you know. So I've lost stuff. So I think maybe maybe that helps. Maybe having lost stuff and then getting stuff back, you become you do become grateful for it because you you know you didn't have it for a certain period of time.

SPEAKER_02 18:41

19 years of sobriety, and then obviously recently writing this book, how hard was it to connect with that person that you used to be of being an addict? Because I think I mean I'm 34 now. If I was to think of myself 19 years ago, I couldn't remember. Do you know? It's a long, a long period of time.

SPEAKER_03 18:59

I mean the thing, yeah, the thing is with memories, the stuff I think the stuff around being a kid, I I think can be quite, you know, your your mind can deceive you. Do you know what I mean? You know, like I I used to think that, you know, I'd I have quite, you know, I've quite a difficult relationship with my dad. I used to think that we we went to the chip shop every Friday night, got chips from my local chip shop, then went home and watched Spider-Man on the telly. And I remember this, this is one of like three happy memories, two three happy memories I've got with my dad. That on a Friday we had this thing where we we did this thing, and I was talking to him about it, and he went, No, we did we just did that once. And I was like, it wasn't I thought that was like our Friday night thing, apparently not. So the the couple of happy memories I have, like one of them happened once, do you know what I mean? Which in itself is quite you know, it's funny, of course, yeah, but it's also quite like depressing, do you know what I mean? So the you know, your mind can play tricks on you, you know, stuff that you you thought happened didn't really happen that way, or you know, but around the dick around the does my sort of drug use in into my teenage years, late teenage years, I I remember it, but I do, I suppose I do think of it and I look back on it now and it's quite it's quite funny. I mean it wasn't, you know, and it was it's you know, and it's really sad that I spent a long period of my life, you know, doing what I did, unhappy, you know, in in amazing situations, you know, you know, on tour with bands. And I just didn't want to be there. I just didn't want to be there, I didn't want to be alive, I wanted to be somewhere else doing drugs, I wanted to be, I was, you know, I'm having an anxiety attack, I'm I'm anxious, I feel awkward, I don't, you know, so all these kind of things that would happen that I didn't really appreciate or take full advantage of. So I look back at that stuff and it was kind of a bit sad.

SPEAKER_00 20:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:58

But, you know, for the most part, I mean, addiction is so ridiculous, and we do such ridiculous things that and it's been so long for me that I am able to see the funny side. But I think also there's probably there's probably coping mechanisms attached to that. Do you know what I mean? You know, the you know, that looking at it in that way rather than it, and I think it's free, and I think it stops me being like a victim.

SPEAKER_01 21:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:21

You know, like, oh, this was done to me. You know, it's like I did these mad things. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like I remember, you know, a power of mine, we'd we'd run out of drugs, and there was a mate of ours who was a drug dealer, but he could he lived with his mum, so he couldn't have the drugs in the house. And my mate was sure that he buried his drugs in the park over the road from his house. So at three o'clock in the morning, we're in a book, we're you know, we're in a bush with no no no lights, pitch black, digging holes in the ground, trying to find his drugs. You know, so just stupid things like that. Do you know what I mean? You know, like about the time it seemed like like this is a really good idea. Yeah, yeah, and I'm we're I'm desperate. I'm coming down and I'm f I feel horrendous and I know what's in the post. So I'm like, you know, I'm gonna, you know, rather than just kind of enjoying what's left of the drugs in my system and then going to bed, I'm like, we're gonna go across, you know, we're gonna go, you know, we're gonna we're gonna get we're gonna walk for 15, 20 minutes and like get on our hands and knees in you know, under a bush. Yeah. And all sorts of dog shit and whatever else, you know. So just this kind of stupid things like that, you know, you know, wandering around my bedroom with a you know, with a standing knife blade in my arm and blood everywhere, and I've got this, you know, I've got a porno on the telly, and I'm I'm trying to call girls, I'm you know, no idea what's going on. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, you know, at the time, horrendous. I know, but horrendous, you know, like I you know, but now it's just ridiculous.

SPEAKER_02 22:48

I had a a previous past man talk to me about the the rooms of the the fellowship, and he said, the rooms of the fellowship, he said the thing is he said there's a fine line between comedy and tragedy. He said the rooms of the fellowship are some of the funniest places that you could ever ever be. Yeah. Because of stories like that.

SPEAKER_03 23:04

All sorts of mad stuff. I I mean, like, even just little things like I remember being at a meeting, and there was a guy there that my but a friend of mine had sort of befriended, so he'd introduced me to him, so I was sort of aware of who he was. And I'm five, six years maybe at the time, I don't know. And this guy is I don't think he's two weeks. And he's isn't he sharing in you know in the meeting. Not not, you know, not waiting for newcomers' time, like he's just cracking on, right? So yeah, and he's like, I know what's wrong with me today. I'm never gonna use drugs again. And we're sitting there kind of going, like, mate, I'm six years, I've got no idea what's wrong with me. Like, can you can you maybe you can help me out? Yeah, you know, obviously never, you know, didn't see the guy disappeared, never saw him again. But just the kind of silly stuff that happens, the people, the relationships that people get into, they're in love, yeah, kind of going, this is gonna end so badly. Yeah, you know, and I think at the time you kind of you know it, you you you get caught up, you tell them, oh, you shouldn't be together, you know, and you get a few years and you're kind of like pfft, stupid let them have their experience, let them have their experience, they'll they'll learn from it, do you know what I mean? Or they won't, you know, sadly. But but yeah, you're able to kind of just sort of laugh, you know, not not in front of them, behind their backs, yeah, yeah. I would still feel like if they if they ask for my advice, I would give it to them. Do you know what I mean? You know, because it is serious, but there is also, like you say, there is such ridiculous stuff that goes on, you know.

SPEAKER_02 24:29

Do you know with your with your story? Do you think it would break stigma or be more powerful if people could uh attach a face to this to this book though?

Ego Accountability And Recovery Brands

SPEAKER_03 24:38

I don't know. I don't know. I I do know that I think it would be it would be it it wouldn't help me. Yeah I think it I think it would impact me negatively. Oh in complete terms, not because of like, oh, people would then start judging me, but my ego doesn't need this. My ego doesn't need me to be well it kind of does, I suppose. It does. I do you know, like I'm gonna go, oh, you're so like humble because the anonymity I'm not, I've got a raging ego. I'd love people to kind of walk down the street and kind of go, I recognise you. I read your book, yeah. Yeah, I've read your book, your book's brilliant, really helped me. And I get messages like that, and I've had a f you know, I've started to get a few, you know, recently, and it's great. I really appreciate people sending me messages, but my ego doesn't need that because it will just run with it. Yeah, and it's really, you know, it's important to stay grounded and stay up with it. Yeah, yeah. And that's the thing we were talking about, the kind of social media, kind of the influencers and stuff when their ego attaches to it, and it just it becomes less about maybe helping people or trying to influence people. I'm not quite sure how they influence people, yeah. No, I I get it. But it becomes a vehicle for their their their ego for who they are. Do you know what I mean? And then a way for them to sort of monetize that maybe.

SPEAKER_02 25:49

I think I think the opposite of what I've just said, and I think what what it could be even more powerful actually is that when you are reading this book, you're not thinking about someone's experience actually, because it's anonymous and because we don't know who who who it is, we can see ourselves in the works.

SPEAKER_03 26:05

Yeah, you can attach you can attach whoever you want to it, do you know what I mean? You know, so whatever your preconceptions are of a drug addict, yeah, whatever they might be, whether it's like a guy in a shop doorway crouched down with his hand out, or whether it's the the middle class housewife that's drinking two bottles of wine every night, or what whatever. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, but I just know for myself it's it's it's not it wouldn't be good for my ego to to to kind of do that. And I I, you know, it helps right size, it helps me stay grounded.

SPEAKER_02 26:35

And I think some people might say that anonymity can sometimes shield you from accountability. How would you how would you respond to that?

SPEAKER_03 26:46

Yeah, I mean I can I can st I could I suppose I can see that because you can kind of you know no one knows who you are, you can say whatever you want. Yeah. But I was you know, not that time is the be all and end all, but I was 12, 8, 10 years sober when I started the account. So you know, I you know, I had quite I'd been in recovery a while, you know, and my you know my motives for it were were quite good. I take it very seriously. I'd again another reason I struggle with the social media stuff with the influencers is because you're, you know, and sometimes it comes from a good place. It's like I'm six months clean, I'm gonna start a social media account, and so and it's like just get well, yeah, just go and get well, see your, you know, let people see you getting well. Don't start giving advice and talking about sobriety because you're six months sober, yeah. Just get well and then maybe come back. Start off with little things, you know what I mean? Like that's what I loved about 12-step meetings. Just stand at the front and say hello to people, ask them if what their name is, ask them if it's their first time here. Bring them in, introduce them to the person doing the literature. Yeah, point out the you know, point out the coffee where the c you know where the teas are. You know, and then you move into, you know, once you've read the literature, you know, literally, maybe you know, take pick up that commitment, you know, and you move around and you know, rather than sort of jumping in.

SPEAKER_02 28:13

I I think there's something in that because I I I run a volunteer programme and I get a lot of people that are in early recovery that want to volunteer, they want to give back, as they say. But I also think there's also this part of me that wonders if they're trying to skirt around the need to address their own issues because they want to fix other people, and if they're fixing other people, then I I'm obviously in recovery because I'm a peer mentor, I'm a volunteer. My my response is a very important thing.

SPEAKER_03 28:43

I think you can ego attach, and then you know, there's we've all got an ego, you know, but it has to be sort of right-sized. Do you know what I mean? You know, and I think that especially, you know, drug addicts, it can it can, you know, because we have you know a lot of us have low low self-esteem, so it's this horrendous, painful place of low self-esteem, but an ego. Yeah, and it's like, you know, you can help people and you could and feel good about it, but understand that this isn't your value doesn't come from this. That's it, yeah. Do you know what I mean? That this is just something that you do, and that's the great thing with my you know, I pick up my phone, I I go on my you know, I go on, I go on Twitter, X, whatever, you know, uh Instagram, I then put the phone down, it goes in my pocket. Yeah, I then go and get them with the rest of my day. You can it's not that's not me. Do you know what I mean? My value doesn't come from any of this stuff. And I you know, I think sometimes as well, the you know, with you know, you're talking about like peer mentoring and stuff, I like I do struggle sometimes with like the charities, and I think they take advantage of people. I think that you know it's free labour, you know, and I I just are we are we considering the the person? Yeah, you know, like you go, oh, they can do this for us, which means we haven't got to employ someone. And they might be kind of okay to do that, you know, they might they might have the the life qualification skills, whatever, too. Yeah, but are is are they in the right place? Yeah, what you know, you you know, like I I did some work for a charity and they was doing a podcast and they wanted to talk to people about their recovery, and they're getting people in the six months. And I'm like, Yeah, why are we what happens if this person relapses? What then? No. Do you know what I mean? And if you position yourself as like some recovery guru, some influencer, your your entire, you know, your entire account is based around recovery and you relapse, what you know, do you you know, it's it's it can be very difficult to then come out and say, actually, you know, because relapses don't happen overnight. You know, this is like it's it's you know you it takes a while. It's the relapse before the relapse. Yeah, yeah, it's in the post, yeah, behaviors, thoughts, whatever, generally, do you know what I mean, right? So when that's happening, when you're kind of telling other people about recovery and how great your life is now, but you can't give them that stuff, you know, and then you relapse. Do you then are you then honest? Can you then be honest? How does that work with your brand, with your account? Yeah, you know, and I just think if you've gone around the community, going, I'm doing all this mentoring now, and it's like, oh no, actually, I fucked up. I wasn't honest.

Helping Others Without Losing Yourself

SPEAKER_02 31:11

It's it's really interesting to say that I as the volunteer lead for the charity that I work at, I think people think I'm too harsh on my own. Do you consider that stuff? Oh, you're saying you do, but no, do you know what I've done? 100%. I think I turn more people down for volunteering than I ever take on because I know how detrimental it can be to that person if it doesn't work out. I'm also aware that for some people it is a bit of a lifeline for them as well. Yeah, but there's a bit of a right time for them. That's and that's the thing.

SPEAKER_03 31:37

I think a lot of charities, a lot of you know, a lot of organizations, I don't think they really consider that. Yeah, they consider what they can get. Do you know what I mean? They don't consider or they consider how it they can they only consider the positives. Yeah, oh, it will help this, but yeah, but what if you know what if they're taking on too much? 100%. No, do you know what I mean? And the responsibility they've got, you know, that they feel. Because I, you know, when I when I was, you know, was sponsoring people in in recovery and stuff initially, I take it take it really seriously. You know, as you get older, you're kind of like, take my advice or don't. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 32:09

It's up to you, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:10

Yeah, you know, you know, come have have have an experience, come back and speak to me and we'll see we'll see how you got on. But initially it was it was like my recovery is so linked to theirs. Yeah that if they're not doing stuff, it's like it's affecting me. You know, and again, you know, learning really early on that you know it's their lengths, not my lengths. So now, you know, when it comes to helping me, I'm very boundaried around it. You know, whereas I'd be I'd be playing football on a Tuesday and someone would ring me up on a on a Monday, or they'd ring me up Tuesday afternoon and kind of go, I'm really struggling. Like, I'm not, I think I'm gonna use. I say, Do you want to go to a meeting tonight? I'll meet you and we'll go to a meeting. I turn up at the tube station, they don't show up. And I'm like, I've missed football for this. Whereas I'm like, now it'd be like I've got football tonight. Go to that meeting. If you're about tomorrow, I'm free tomorrow or whenever. Let's.

SPEAKER_02 33:03

Because you're gonna drive yourself mad with that as well, aren't you? If you start putting things in place and people aren't doing it, and I think there's there's always something about judging people to the same standard that you hold.

SPEAKER_03 33:12

And it's my control issues, my ego. Yeah, do you know what I mean? You know, somebody I helped recently got got a year, and you know, they they they came out, you know, we met up, we had a coffee, you know. You've been like on the phone and stuff. We met up, had a coffee, they they would come into the to a convention. I tend not to do the conventions now. You know, me and my wife popped in, met them, met their friends, it was really nice. They relapsed, and you know, they kind of came back and they, you know, they came and went a few times, and at the moment, then you know they're not in recovery. And initially I found it very frustrating. Yeah, I was kind of angry at them, but then you know, as I have to look at that, it's my ego. Like I somehow I'm like I felt like a failure.

SPEAKER_02 33:58

I was gonna say, yeah, it's almost it comes down to you, you almost feel like you filled when someone else feels that you're attached to it. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:04

And the thing is that they're just in their they're just in whatever process they're in, they're doing their thing, you know. You know, I hope they found you know the help that did give them at the time beneficial, da da da, they might still come back. Yeah. But you know, my the things that I do now, I can't base them on on outcomes. You know, like I just want to do the best I can in every area. For you know, if you're in a position to help somebody and you can help them, I think you should help them. Yeah. And you know, how whatever they do with that help, that's up to them.

Rock Bottom By A Thousand Cuts

SPEAKER_02 34:35

I think for a lot of people as well, they it's referred to a lot of things, the light bulb moment, the rock bottom, you know, when that when when they make those changes. In your book, you you state that you were addicted to pretty much every substance that you could imagine. What was the lowest moment that you experienced, or what was the moment where because obviously 19 he's in recovery now, he's incredible. So it's uh what's the moment where, right, this is the last time I am using drugs?

The First Meeting That Changed Everything

SPEAKER_03 35:01

Do you know what it wasn't it didn't really happen like that? It was there was loads and it was like incremental stuff. It just incre you know it was, you know, it was you know, death by a thousand paper cuts. It was lots of you know, such lots of things that happened. I'd got to a point where I couldn't pretend that all the bad things that happened in my life, how I felt, the you know, getting sacked from jobs, uh the warnings, the you know, the the girlfriends leaving me, the the the mental, you know, my mental health issues, all of that stuff. I couldn't pretend that drugs weren't involved in all of it. You know, before you know my you know, I've got because I've got valid reasons to to feel the way that I do. I you know, I I ended up in a women's refuge with my mum at 12 years old. So there was violence in my house. My dad is completely emotionally shut down. We have we literally have no you know, no relationship. You know, my mum, my mum had a drug-induced heart attack, my brother died from a drugs overdose, I've lost houses. You know, there's like my you know, there's stuff where it's like, yeah, no, you know, if I'd have had your life, I'd have used drugs. Yeah, but I'd feel the way that you feel, right? Yeah. But you know, it got to a point where it was like, I I can't blame my boss for always being on my back because I'm I'm not showing up for work. And when I do, I'm not really productive. I mean, I remember when I was when I was working uh when I was working with Oasis, I I turned up one day at five o'clock. Now we the office shuts at six. I just turned up just to like check the post, see what had come in. And you know, one of one of the guys I worked with pulled me aside and went, You you do know you're not in one of the bands, you know, and like so my boss is you know gonna be on my back about these things, and I'm going, Oh, he's just a prick. He's just, you know, why is my girlfriend always moaning at me? You know, because I'm not showing up. When I do, I'm you know, I'm in a bad mood, I'm badly behaved, I'm yeah, you know, suspicious, I'm jealous, I'm all this stuff, and it got to point where it was like, no, it's maybe it's maybe it's me, maybe it's the choices I'm making. So I was kind of in that space, and then and then a girl overdosed and died at my house. And I was like, this I remember sort of sitting there, and we've called the ambulance, and I'd been up for about two or three days already. I was absolutely and we'd there was a lot of drugs in the house, we were a lot of you know, it was about 20 people, and a lot of them are drug dealers, like you know, just a lot of the kids I grew up with was you know, sold drugs, and so everyone's doing drugs, and lots of drugs, and this girl drops this girl goes over in in cardiac arrest, and everyone just runs. Like people start rapping their you know, they're rapping their drug, they're gone. And I remember asking a girl to stand outside and wait for the ambulance. I think they they must have told me to do that, I don't think I'd have thought of that myself. I've gone down a few minutes later, she's gone. So it was just me and one other guy sort of sat there with this this girl dead, still doing drugs, waiting for the ambulance. And then the guys come and they're you know, they've got the the the the Watsits to try and revive her. And just thinking, this wasn't how it was supposed to be. Like I thought I was gonna play up front for Arsenal, I thought I was gonna be David Geffen, I thought I was gonna run a record label at 29 at this point, and just thinking this is so far removed from the fun I was having when I was doing drugs. And again, you know, the fun was kind of there was moments of fleet and fun and stuff, like I said earlier, but you know, being on tour and doing drugs and this with musicians and models and writers and actors and all that kind of stuff, which was kind of cool because I'd come from quite a working class environment, to then this kind of glamour and members' clubs and stuff, to then being at home with just this and just thinking this is really like something's gotta change. And then a friend of mine rang me one day while I was walking around the streets, and I'd got to a point this, you know, at this stage where I couldn't, you know, I couldn't have drugs in the house, so I couldn't buy drugs in bulk anymore, which made them cheaper, and I, you know, could sell drugs and all that other stuff. So I wasn't working much, I couldn't keep jobs, so now got no I've now got money issues, which is a horrendous place to be when you're a drug addict, not having any money, right? So I was kind of wandering around the street, and my mate rang me and said, like, what you what you doing? I said, I'm just just in Canada. And he came and met me, and he's he sort of, you know, he said, What's you know, what's going on? What are you up to? And I just burst into tears and just kind of went, Um I'm fucked, I can't do this no more. Then I just can't do it. And he's he's made a phone call, and he's put the phone down and he went, Right, um, I'm gonna take you to a meeting. I didn't I didn't really know what we where we were what he was talking about, but he was a drug dealer and he had drugs, so I'm like, Yeah, I'm gonna hang out with him. Do you know what I mean, right? So we've driven over to this meeting, and we sat in his car, and we're just, you know, we're rolling joints and just smoking joints, and he's like, Yeah, that's the he's pointed, he's got that's the meeting over there, and there's all these fellas, all these. It was in East London, so it was like there was a lot of kind of football hooligan, middle-aged football hooligan type men turning up at this meeting, and they were kind of hugging and smoking cigarettes outside the meeting and stuff, and he went, Yeah, that's the that's the meeting. So I'm like, Alright, so we've we've gone, he's come in with me, and we sat there, and I was so stoned, I don't really remember too much about it. I just I do remember the guy talking, talking about doing drugs when he did drugs, he couldn't, he always did more than he meant to do. When he's when he wanted to, when he stopped, he could never stay stopped. And when he did manage to stop for brief periods of time, he was always thinking about doing drugs. And he also spoke about unhealthy relationships with women. And I had this moment where I was like, I thought I was the only person like this. I thought it was just me. And you know, lots of my, you know, all the kids I grew up with, guys, you know, musicians I worked with, quite a lot of drug addicts, you know, degenerate, you know, like they've got they've got drug issues anyway, you know. They they do they do a lot of drugs and it impacts their lives negatively. I was always seen I always seem to be worse than them though, you know. So I never thought, oh, they're they're the same as me. I've got you know, it was always I was always alone. And so this moment there was just something kind of there was just something about it where it was like it's it's not just me. And I found that really powerful that I'm not I'm not this unique snowflake having this this unique experience that there are other people. And he must have he mentioned something about some stuff about recovery, but that was the that was the stuff I really sort of latched on to. And and then after the meeting, people, you know, so that was the then they they they they sort of do the cat, you know, they do a clean time countdown stuff, and and I didn't I had no interest in in total abstinence, I had no interest in recovery, I just wanted to use drugs how I used to use drugs when I was like 15, 16, when it wasn't too bad. It wasn't yeah, for the big problems, yeah, yeah, yeah. When it was just fun, and when you know, when I ran out of drugs, could just smoke a joint and go to bed. Yeah, you know, and like and get my girlfriend back. That was kind of it, and so they got to like I wasn't even here at their first meeting, and I don't know, I just got caught up in it, and I'm like, you know, because they're all clapping, like, you know, year, multiple years, year, 18 months, six, you know, years, six months. And I've just got up and I'm like in there, and everyone's clapping, and I've got a key ring, and then you know, people have come up to me afterwards, you know, what area do you, you know, whereabouts do you live? Oh, there's a meeting tomorrow, you should go to, you know. And I had nothing going on. I had nothing going on in my life. So I got up next day and went to a meeting. And then at that meeting, they went, oh, wait, you know, there's a meeting tonight, you should go to it. And I went to that meeting and just carried on doing that.

SPEAKER_02 43:31

Was you using in between these? No, no, I stopped. So what you stopped instantly from that meeting.

SPEAKER_03 43:35

I just suddenly, I mean, I remember that was the thing there. They talked about, you know, you know, drugs being like an allergy, and you know, they used all that kind of, and it just suddenly made sense that when I stopped, when I when I sorry, when I when I when I started, something lit up in me and I just could not stop. You know, that I would I would I'd travel for you know across London, you know, to to to to get drugs, if that was what it took. Do you know what I mean? You know, every you know, I'd I you know never This period, you know, in the years going up to that, anytime I went on holiday, I'd always take drugs with me through customs and stuff, you know, like kind of going fucking over there. Couldn't go anywhere without drugs, you know. You know, I was a daily drug user, and it just was it's it just made sense. It just it had never been explained to me. I'd always used to say to people, I'm a I'm a bit of a drug addict, you know, even like even before you are, or you are. Yeah, well it's like well, I don't know what a bit of a drug addict. You know, I don't know what that means. I knew I had drug problems, I knew that my relationship with drugs was unhealthy. Because, you know, because I say because the people around me, they they just didn't use like I did. But I didn't understand addiction until it was kind of explained in that way. And then, you know, once you kind of get that that break, you realise that you've got all sorts of like emotional and behavioural issues and and perception issues, and and then you're able to kind of work on on that stuff.

SPEAKER_02 44:53

Did did you link your your substance misuse issues to your childhood or any or uh any word? You know, because obviously no. No. Do you do do you think it was a factor in it now, like in hindsight?

Root Causes And Not Knowing

SPEAKER_03 45:04

I don't know. I mean, I think information is good. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? To kind of go, you know, like, you know, because you can do stuff with that information or not do stuff, right? So the more you know, but I'm never gonna know. There's no definitive answer. You know, I've you know, I've clearly kind of, you know, you know, grown up had issues around, you know, being able to concentrate and you know probably slight autism and stuff, you know. But is it be is it because I wasn't showing enough love? Is it because my house was a war zone, so I I never felt safe and I always felt anxious? I don't know. And I don't know how much of that stuff is helpful. You know, do you know what will what will I do with that information?

SPEAKER_02 45:52

Yeah, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 45:53

It's like are you you know, do you know are drugs are drugs negative in your life? Are they having a negative impact in your life? Yeah. Yeah. Do what do you want to do about it?

SPEAKER_02 46:00

The root cause of it in some ways is irrelevant, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 46:06

I don't think I don't ever think you're gonna get a definitive answer. And you'll get the answer you want. It's like if you think your partner's cheating, right? She she leaves the room and a text goes on a you know, a phone, someone texts her and you check that text, and it's just her mate. You don't think, oh sh I got that wrong, she's not cheating.

SPEAKER_01 46:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:25

You just you just didn't get the right text. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Next time a phone goes off, you'll check it, you'll keep checking it until you get the answer you want. You know, and I think it's the same with with this.

SPEAKER_02 46:37

Did you did you ever go on like a a methodon programme or anything? Never been.

Sleep Medication And Prescription Risk

SPEAKER_03 46:42

Didn't do anything. What what was it like in terms of sleeping got on sleeping tablets? Yeah. Had sleeping because I'd horrendous I mean, I always had horrendous sleep issues. Okay. But what I found in early recovery was that when you're not sleeping for like 36 hours, or you're getting, you know, you're I'm going to bed at I'm falling asleep at like six in the morning, it the impact that was having on my my mental health and my ability to kind of cope with not doing drugs, yeah. Was it like I found that really, really difficult. So I so I got on I got I did I did get a prescription of sleeping pills which kind of helped regulate that and kind of get me back into sort of waking up at 9 30 in the morning instead of like one in the afternoon and stuff. And because that that I just found I knew that I just yeah, I I needed to start getting getting some sunlight in my eyes. Yeah I I always found winter winters were always horrendous for me.

SPEAKER_02 47:36

Uh yeah, I'm the same. Wintertime, I I am miserable in winter. I don't I feel like almost almost like a weight being lifted off me when spring comes in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 47:47

Imagine like you're using, so you're you're getting to bed at like six, seven o'clock in the morning, you're waking up at two or three in the afternoon, by four thirty it's pitch black again. Yeah. And it was just like so for like four months, it's gonna mess you up, isn't it? It was just, yeah, I I'd found like that kind of stuff really, really difficult. So I needed to get I still struggle with my sleep now. I mean, I went to think I went to bed at half one last night, that was really early for me. Yeah, so yeah, so I just found like getting getting sleeping pills, you know, and and make but I also as well was really aware of my issues around addiction. So it was like, you know, my I was always really honest with my GPs and stuff, and my you know, my uh my my psychologist at my my my drug centre. So it was like we need to this can't be ongoing. Yeah, do you know what I mean? Because they some days don't understand. Like when I slipped my I slipped my discs in my back, they they gave me like like OxyContin stuff, do you know what I mean? So it was all kind of like uh a painkilling pills. Was that whilst she was in recovery? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, I took um a couple of times, and one of the last times I took them, I got a coach. I was I was getting the coach already, it wasn't like I just ended up on a coach to Manchester. My wife was living in Manchester at the time because we just we'd we'd just like seeing each other. Like, so I got a coach up to Manchester, absolutely off my tits, fell into her house kind of giggling. The next day, dropped her son at school, nine like quarter to nine in the morning. As I'm walking back, I thought, you know, I might go and get some ice cream, take my pills, and watch a film. Yeah, and I was like, nah, this isn't good. Yeah, do you know what I mean? You know, it's like I uh and I just sort of dropped them out, but they were quite happy. They there was no sort of talk when they initially gave them that because this would have been 2012. So it's before the whole the whole kind of thing in America blew up with like uh you know the the prescription stuff.

SPEAKER_02 49:36

Yeah, I was gonna say you'd think of you'd hope GPs wouldn't know better than to give someone being very honest about. They maybe do now.

SPEAKER_03 49:41

I I don't but I I mean maybe some do now, some don't. And I I have heard, I mean, you know, you do hear people, some people in meetings and then you know, really sort of going after doctors because they don't know. But and part of me is kind of like I was going, you know, I'm the you know, I'm a drug addict, I didn't even know what was wrong with me. Yeah, so how do I expect someone else to do what I mean? I mean I know they're sort of professional.

SPEAKER_02 50:04

I know, but especially with how little time you get with them. Like I've probably sat with you longer than any GP sat weird. Do you know what I mean? You get five minutes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Early Recovery Rage Anxiety And Honesty

SPEAKER_03 50:11

Especially these days. But um, but yeah, no, I because I'm I I know I at that point I knew what what was wrong with me. I was like, this can't go on forever. So luckily it didn't.

SPEAKER_02 50:22

Take us into that, going back to that first day of recovery, then, what did it actually feel like? And what what I mean by that is not what it should feel like, because I think there's different interpretations.

SPEAKER_03 50:32

What's my first year of recovery like?

SPEAKER_02 50:33

Your first day, well, them them first days, because obviously if you're taking all these drugs, you're still experiencing you haven't gone to this meeting, you've come out and you you, you know, now immune to the withdrawal symptoms.

SPEAKER_03 50:43

It was horrendous. It was horrendous. Everything was horrendous. It was all I asked about the methadone programme. Yeah, yeah, no, it was everything was horrendous. I I you know my brain was just I just couldn't, you know, I couldn't shut it down, you know, wasn't sleeping, and was really prone to, you know, anxiety, panic, anger, really quite angry, like something would not go my way, and I'd want to, you know, destroy things. You know, I miss a bus.

SPEAKER_01 51:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:11

And I'm like, I think I'm gonna smash the bus stop up.

SPEAKER_02 51:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:14

You know, someone's, you know, a you know, a pedestrian's walking past, and I'm like fantasizing, punching, like attacking them because I've missed a bus. There's gonna be another bus in four or five minutes if you're in London. But it's you could catastrophe at the same time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like it's like when you go shopping on the you know, it's like when you go to the supermarket on a Saturday and you see some kid in the aisle just now mental. It was it was like that, it was it was absolutely horrendous. So, you know, stuff you know, stuff you learn in recovery about you know meditation. Yeah, I found that really kind of helpful, didn't kind of solve it, but it was you know, it was helpful. But the first year, I mean, even the first few months, first year I found it first 18 months I found really difficult. Yeah, I don't want to scare anybody off because you know, recovery is the best thing I ever did. Everything good in my life that I have has come from recovery. But I didn't understand, I didn't realise how difficult life was until I stopped doing drugs. Yeah, it was like this is a struggle. And I think in meetings, especially in my experience of meetings, again, the ego can, you know, the ego has to attach to something. So you go to some meetings and people, all people are doing is talking about how much jail time they did. Yeah. Did them I did 20 years for killing five people and the police couldn't catch me for however long, and oh, I was injecting into my eyeballs in a bin shed, and we were, you know, like the maddest stories, and that's that kind of separates them from everybody else because they're the worst drug addict. And then you get the other ones who are the best recovering drug addict, which you know, I've you know, I was out with my 10 sponsees last night, and one of them was telling me how amazing I'd been in his life, you know, and you're kind of going like so some you know they you know they they you know sharing honestly, but it would seem some people they they they get the they they think they have to only share the good stuff. They're sort of scared of of chasing people out of recovery by going, do you know what? It's really difficult sometimes. So I was kind of sat in meetings, hearing people just talking about the good stuff, and I'm like hunched over in pain with stomach cramps. Kind of don't I don't know why my life is so difficult. And you know, and what I realized was I think and kind of I'm kind of thinking, why aren't what am I doing wrong? Why aren't I why aren't I like this? You know, why aren't I getting what they've got? And what I realized, and a lot of those people ended up relapsing. I mean, I I don't laugh because they relapse, I laugh because they I don't they weren't being honest. Do you know what I mean? They were only sharing the good stuff. What I realised was is that I was exactly where I should be, you know, and I was in the middle of a process where I'm learning to feel stuff and navigate that without doing drugs, you know, and this is you know a lot of time how drug addicts feel when you take the drugs away. Do you know what I mean?

One Day At A Time Doubts

SPEAKER_02 54:07

Yeah, and that actually it's okay. You said about the first 18 months being being hard. At what point did you actually believe that this was going to last? Do you do you even believe it now?

SPEAKER_03 54:17

I don't think about it like that. I don't like again, I think it's an arrogance. I don't think of it like that either. No, because I've there's I've seen some recovery groups. There's quite there's a lot of these really unhealthy recovery groups, a lot of them seem to be charging money, right? Which I struggle with, right? And the few are quite a few up north, it would seem, like the northwest, right? And they're like, oh yeah, like one day at a time, you know, we don't do that. We're like, you know, the idea being that you you wake up today and it's like I'm gonna stay clean today. Yeah, I don't think I'll use again. I don't know. I don't know what what's gonna happen tomorrow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't, you know, what and that's one of the things I've learned in recovery. I don't know. And it's all right not to know. I don't know what it would take to relapse. I don't know, you know what I mean. I don't know what you know, I don't know if I ever would. If the worst thing that could ever happen in my life would make me relapse again, I don't know. So I don't live a day, I make plans, you know. It's not like oh I can't make a you know, I can't plan next week because I might re you know, relapse. I'm just living for today. I've got holidays booked, so I've got things happening, but who knows? Do you know what I mean? Absolutely, I get it. I think there's an arrogance with that that's it.

SPEAKER_02 55:30

Well, if you you can't you can't because again it go goes back to that idea of taking things for granted as well, sometimes, isn't it? Looking at the book, who is it really for? You say so you say the book is for for addicts and the people around them. When you're writing it, did you have somebody in mind was the like somebody that was still using someone like brand new to recovery or like maybe the family trying to understand what's going on for that person? Was you thinking about anyone when you was writing it? Not really.

SPEAKER_03 55:57

Again, I think it you know I had a lot of help with my wife writing it.

SPEAKER_02 56:01

I saw the in the prologue about her calling you various variations of female genitalia. Yeah, it was hooked me instead of it. It was tough. I love that.

SPEAKER_03 56:09

It was uh it really it it it it tested our relationship, yeah, if I'm honest. I mean, it was it was what I mean, it was yeah, it was worse when we first got together and kind of I mean we were in a fairly early recovery. I mean, I thought it was three years, three, four years when I met her, and she was two or three. She recovered too? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ah, okay, nice. That's what I'm saying. Everything everything good that's happened in my life has happened in recovery. Yeah. You know, my daughter was conceived at a convention, you know, like you know, everything, you know, has come from my recovery. You know, but so yeah, I think yeah, in answer to your question, it kind of goes back to I I try not to think about things in terms of you know, outcomes of who is this for. It's like if because I think at that point then you're you're sort of compromising yourself, maybe. Yeah, you know, and you're not being your true, you know, you're not being yourself. It's you know, if somebody gets something from it, that's great. If they don't, I don't really care. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm not and again, the same with social media stuff. I don't Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:12

If you get something, you get something from it.

SPEAKER_03 57:14

I I'm just trying to be a good person. I'm just trying to, you know, to put to put good energy out there and and you know, and if that resonates with someone, that's great. If it doesn't, I uh that doesn't affect me. Not like, oh that I've you know, I feel failure or I feel like I've got friends that keep asking me how many copies it's sold. Yeah. I'm like, dunno. I don't know. Don't care. They've sent some, I know I've had some emails from the publishers about how many copies we've shipped. I haven't really looked at them.

SPEAKER_01 57:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:41

You know, because if I get caught into that, you're attaching your web to it, it's the same with social media, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 57:48

Make more posts, or maybe if I do some post with the right song and the right, then maybe it's selling more copies. It's just like, you know, buy it, don't buy it. I don't, you know, it'd be nice if you did. Yeah, but you can't, you know, to you. You know, I've got trainers to buy and stuff, you know, holidays to pay for. No, you know, but it'd be nice if people do buy it. You know, I spoke to one of my one of my oldest friends yesterday, and he rung me up and was like, Do you feel richer? And uh, all we do, we we're at a place now in our relationship where all we we rarely see each other, we just argue about football. Yeah, yeah. Like to the point where it's vicious, like vicious. You know, but because we've known each other so long, we we can say these horrendous names, right? And not take it too personally. Yeah, and I was like, What are you talking about? And he went, Because I fucking bought your book, and I and I was like, you know, and he's got you know, if I put him in the back, he got a thank you in it, right? I was like, oh nice one. He's like, Yeah, and he's like, Yeah, my sister's reading it now, and I'm like, well, I hope she bought her copy. Yeah, you're not sharing it around there, yeah. And then he mentioned a few other people that I grew up with that have bought it. Yeah, people I haven't seen for years, like probably nearly 10 years.

SPEAKER_02 58:51

And they know who you are though. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 58:53

I mean it's the thing.

SPEAKER_02 58:53

I'm not I'm not This is it, you're not or you're not overprotected about it.

SPEAKER_03 58:56

I'm not I'm not precious about it, and it's not, it's just I don't want to be social media famous. I don't, I just want to be able to sort of separate myself from it. You know, but people know, you know, some of my you know, people I trust know who I am.

SPEAKER_01 59:08

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 59:09

You know, people, you know, people I work with, you know, it comes up. Everybody I I meet, I mean I don't I say everybody I everybody I meet knows I'm in recovery, that's not true. Everybody that knows me fairly well knows I'm in recovery. You know, it's not something I I haven't made it my personality, yeah. It's not something I don't lead with it, but you know, I'm more than happy to kind of discuss it, you know. And that's and that's a weird one because I say, like we were talking earlier about like being in the pub and someone said, Oh, you you drive and say, Well, no, I'm a drug addict, or I'd sometimes we'd just say alcoholic, just to because we're talking about booze. And they go, All right, okay, and they'd say, What do you want then? And this they'll go, Oh, yeah, I I think I drink quite a lot. And I'm like, all right. Within two hours, a couple of pints late, they're at me, kind of going, Yeah, do you know what I think I might have a problem, you know? And it's like and there's there's a few people that I've helped that way. Yeah, do you know what I mean? So that's again like about being honest about stuff.

Quickfire Questions And Closing

SPEAKER_02 1:00:02

Transparency. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Honestly, I think what's more frustrating is right now I feel like I could talk to you for a lot longer. But I like to finish on my podcast with a series of quick fighter questions, and I'll start you off with what's your favourite word?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:15

My favourite word? That's a hard one. Oh, you've really put me on it. I'll go with Arsenal.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:22

Least favourite word Tottenham. Something that excites you. What infuses me? My daughter. Something that doesn't excite you.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:43

People making recovery in their personality.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:45

What sound or noise do you love? Lou Reed's voice. Sound or noise do you hear? Jessica Lynn's singing voice. Dream job.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:56

My dream job. That's a tough one. But you know what? I know more about the jobs I'd hate and that's the next question. Oh god, right. I should have uh you should have warned me about these. Uh my dream job probably could probably be running a record company 40 years ago.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not now, but yeah, 40 years ago. Worst job you can imagine doing.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:18

Worst job I can imagine doing. I think being a drugs worker in the current climate.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:26

I mean, I think there's a lot of red tape.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:28

A lot of red tape and you know, and lack of funding and just the kind of frustrations that kind of come with it. And I, you know, I love helping people, but I love being just, you know, it's being able to do it. I think it consumes you. Do you know what I mean? If you're in recovery and you're you're doing that, I think it has a danger. I think you have to be really, you have to be able to be really boundaried. And I think you have to be a really you have to be really healthy in your own recovery to be that boundary that it doesn't kind of consume you.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:55

And then lastly, if heaven exists, what would you like to hear God say it when you arrive at the Pelegates? You took your time. Thank you so much for joining me on Believe in People. Thanks for having me. And if you've enjoyed this episode of the Believe in People Podcast, we'd love for you to share it with others who might find it meaningful. Don't forget to hit that subscribe button so you never miss an episode. And leaving a review will help us reach more people and continue challenging stigma around addiction and recovery. For additional resources, insights, and updates, explore the links in this episode description. And to learn more about our mission and hear more incredible stories, you can visit us directly at believingpeoplepodcast.com.