Kieran McCartney: Cocaine Culture, ADHD and Recovery - Grief, Addiction and The Apprentice

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_01 0:00

This is a renewed original recording. Hello and welcome to season 3 of Believe in People, the British podcast award-winning series exploring addiction, recovery, and the stigma that surrounds them. I'm Matthew Butler, your host, or as I like to say, your facilitator. Today's episode features Kieran McCartney from the current series of the BBC's The Apprentice. Watched by millions over the last few months, Kieran is known for his confidence drive and winner walk answer. In this episode, he opens up about the pressures behind that image, the loss of his dad, and how that led him into a period of regular drinking and cocaine use. We explore the reality of cocaine culture in the UK, how normalised it can become, and what was actually doing for him during that time. Most importantly, Kieran shares how we recognised it and become a problem. The steps he took to turn things around and what he would say to anyone who might be in that place now. I'm excited for the conversation because one of the things we talked about before we even started here is that it's very young to have someone of your age speak so openly about this subject, and that for me is quite exciting. On The Apprentice, you come across as confident-driven, someone who gets deals done. And the thing that I found interesting is cocaine is quite synonymous with that business environment. Yes. What pressure were you carrying behind that? And how much did that culture play a role in your own cocaine use?

SPEAKER_00 1:19

I mean, look, it's everywhere in the business world. A lot of people are on it. And they won't be as open and honest as me. And you know, there's a lot of people that are doing it daily. And they're not just doing it with a drink, you know, they're dry sniffing, they're they're using it to get through their their business day. I was more of a after-work user in the pub with a few beers rather than doing it at work. I normally had to have a drink to go with it. They sort of kind of go hand in hand with one another. Um and it was to prolong the the length of time you could, you know, stay on your two feet. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

We were having a conversation last night. We was out and I was talking about like once you've had a few drinks, because your inhibitions are so low, it's so easier to say, yes, I'm gonna I'm gonna try that. And I shared a story with uh Robbie when I was on holiday in Tenerife back in like 2012, 2013, and I'm there and I'm in the urinal, and the guy next to me he comes and you know uses the urinal, but he just puts like the cocaine on the top of the urinal, and as he's as he's taking a piss, he just sniffed off the top of the urinal. And he said, like, do you do you want some? And it was one of the things where it crossed my mind. I was like, you know, it kind of looks but if you hadn't presented it in such like a groffy way on like on a you know on a urinal, then maybe I might have been a little bit more tempted. But I think it's one of those things where the the inhibitions are lowered, and like you said, you know, obviously you you drink to you'd drink and then you'd have coke. Yeah, why do you think those two do go so hand in hand? Do you think it's the lower inhibitions, or is there something about the alcohol?

Why Alcohol And Cocaine Pair

SPEAKER_00 2:54

The alcohol is the depressant, and then the coke brings you back up. So you kind of stay in that mid-level range rather than dropping or or going too high. Well, you could argue to stay in that mid-level range, you just want to intertake either of them.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

Well, there is that too. You would stay in the mid-level range, wouldn't you?

SPEAKER_00 3:07

Yeah, there is that to it as well. But I've recently been diagnosed with ADHD. Oh and I was talking to the the chap who done my assessment, which people can see on my Instagram, that it's actually there's there's something to do with the dopamine in the brain. So coke actually affects people with ADHD a lot different, and it kind of levels you out rather than gives you the high, and then you sort of calm down, yeah. Which again, that's probably why I was so addicted to it, because it kind of calmed me down and kept me mid-range rather than giving me the high that it was meant to do for others.

SPEAKER_01 3:40

Because it just has the opposite effect, it's like uh I think Ritalin, I've I've spoken about Ritalin before, but it's like an amphetamine. If you've got ADHD and you have amphetamine, you actually just present more I don't want to use the word normal, but more level. But that's just in ADHD medication, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it just it just sort of like just stimulate it puts the the brain onto a normal normal level, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00 4:02

In regards to the to the drugs, I'm actually gonna go down the natural route rather than take the the the medication, yeah. Just because then it's another addiction that I could get used to. So I'm gonna go down the natural route with natural supplements and try that, and again, people could follow that and and see how I get on. And it may be something that they could switch to if they're addicted to the the Ritalin or the is that what is that what attracted you to cocaine in the first place, then do you think? Oh no.

SPEAKER_01 4:27

What was that?

SPEAKER_00 4:28

No, so I would have been sort of like late teens, 20. It's just uh it's on the scene, isn't it? It's in the pubs, it's in the clubs, it's it's it's there, everyone's everyone's doing it, but people obviously do it a lot more than others, and people have bigger problems than others. And sometimes, you know, I got quite bad on it when when my father passed away, so that kind of set the tone, and I was doing it to escape and be someone else.

SPEAKER_01 4:53

Yeah. I I think there's what I found interesting about cooking. Now we're we're in a period of time where it isn't as taboo as it used to be. Like, if I think back to again my younger years, like the those party years, I felt like there was some shame around cooking. It was people be like wiping the nose and trying to be a bit more discreet about it. No, no one's discreet. It's like mate, there's a there's a line in there for you. Do you know going on? You sat there like that's mental.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

Yeah, and people just it's the norm, right?

SPEAKER_01 5:18

Why why do you think it has become so normal though?

Grief After Dad’s Death

SPEAKER_00 5:20

I just think because it's so available and there's more people using it more commonly, it's kind of just it's you know, it's kind of normal for people to go down the down the pub, have a few beers and a and a bag of coke.

SPEAKER_01 5:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:33

I just think it's it's the norm now.

SPEAKER_01 5:35

Yeah, I get that. You you mentioned then about your your your dad passing away. Yeah. And I think you've been quite public about, you know, how you know the passing of your dad kind of steered you towards, you know, drink and cocaine. Based on that, I suppose that addictive personality. Did you ever have like a dependence to alcohol as well?

SPEAKER_00 5:56

Or was it just Yeah, I was I was drinking probably most days, and then every time I was drinking, I was sniffing coke. And I smoke as well. I'm smoking more than I ever have because I'm off the gear now. Okay, yeah so it's kind of one takes over another, yeah. And I still have a couple of beers here and there, but then I've got a I've got a limit.

SPEAKER_01 6:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

A three-pint limit now. Anything more than that, I'd be worried that I'm making a call.

SPEAKER_01 6:17

I was just talking about that last night, actually. I've just I've I've tried to go complete absence of alcohol, and I've actually just introduced a one-part limit now because I do really I do really enjoy the taste of it, do you? Me too. But I hate feeling drunk and I hate feeling hungover. Yeah. So I've just given myself that one beer, and it just calms not even calms the nerves or such. It just takes that you get the taste. Exactly. And for me, it takes that obsession away because if I say I'm not going to drink at all, I think you'll crave it more. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 6:44

And then you'll end up uh going off the rail.

SPEAKER_01 6:46

Exactly. So it kind of springs on that. But a three-part limit's quite an interesting one.

SPEAKER_00 6:49

Why through because it was always after the third point, I didn't call it on. So I know where my limit was. Yeah. And then you kind of you get a bit tipsy, and then you, you know, you walk off in the low work and then it's back. Fourth, fourth point was was called called the dealer, yeah. So I know that that was how it rolls.

SPEAKER_01 7:05

Did you ever experience like a dependency to alcohol like where you you felt like a physical withdrawal from it?

SPEAKER_00 7:12

Now I drink a lot less, I feel so much better. I s my sleep pattern is so much better. And with that, I'm then working harder, I'm doing better at work, I'm earning more money, I'm friendlier to people, people are seeing that I'm not this, you know, angry little man sat at the end of the end of the bar nading my fix, do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 7:32

But how does it affect your personality? And obviously, we've talked about the the DHD element of it, but does it because I often I often found like when I've when I've explored some training around like different substances, we often say it can actually just exacerbate an existing feeling. So do you know when you say you've got happy drunks, sad drunks, it's actually if you're feeling sad and you drink, you're just gonna be a sad drunk. If you're happy and you drink, you're gonna be 100%. So how did cocaine, I suppose, change your mood? Was was there already like a an anger there when you was taking cocaine?

SPEAKER_00 8:01

Or the sadness with my dad probably it probably tried made me it kind of I'd done it to escape being sad. So the Coke would then bring me back and I could just forget about things and talk shit to people or talk at people rather than have conversation with them, and then people would kind of just move or or leave, you know.

SPEAKER_01 8:21

How are you navigating the the loss of your dad now then kind of without sort of?

SPEAKER_00 8:24

Yeah, so I get I got therapy once a week now. Okay. He comes up in in conversation most weeks, but now I I've kind of healed because I've where I've been clean for a few months now, you kind of sit back, I've taken on board what happened. I don't feel sad. Obviously, I feel sad about it, but I've kind of got got to deal with it. Rather, what was happening is I was going out, drinking, doing coke, then you get anxiety, then you feel depressed, so you never actually get to the point where you get over it. But I feel like I'm there now, and then if I do get sad, then I at the my meeting with my therapist, I talk about why I'm sad. And sometimes there's other things that that play the game. Maybe a friend's dad's passed away or another relative's passed away, and it sort of brings the feelings back. But being able to talk about things is a big release, and so I do I do recommend people just talk to someone, whether it's someone that doesn't know you, sometimes makes it a lot easier.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

I found that, yeah, because there's there's no sort of prejudgment or misconception, because sometimes I think like yourself, you you very much again present as this this you know you know confident person. I think it's almost like when people have that preconception of you, they think, oh well, that shouldn't affect him in the same way that it'd affect somebody else. And obviously with grief as well, there's the stages of grief that you go through. Yeah, yeah, cool. How long ago did your dad pass away?

SPEAKER_00 9:45

Uh 2022. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:47

So it's yeah, so four years is it it sounds like a long time, but it's not, is it, when you think of how you know a mess for most of them four years, yeah. Was it unexpected? Did you see it?

SPEAKER_00 9:57

Yeah, it was cancer, so it was we kind of knew it was gonna happen. Don't make it any easy though, does it? No, no, of course not. But you don't you still don't prepare for it because you don't believe it's gonna happen, do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 10:07

Yeah. I'd I think that with cancer in general, do you know? It's like when you see those adverts and one in three people get cancer. Yeah, and that's it. It's three of you sat in this room right now, but we're all thinking it's not gonna be me. Do you know? But the that there is that that possibility, isn't it? Yeah, no, it's scary. Have you experienced with withdrawal from cocoon? Like when you're when you're not taking it regularly, did you experience a withdrawal?

SPEAKER_00 10:28

And if so, at the start I would crave it.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

Yeah?

SPEAKER_00 10:31

Yeah. I'd crave the crave the feeling. So I don't know. And then do you know what so my therapist always says, you know, just stop, take a step back, think about what what the effects are if you go and do that. And that's a powerful thing to do. It's a tough thing to do, especially when you're it's so easy to get hold of now. But then I'd be like, Well, I'm gonna cancel all my appointments tomorrow because I'm still gonna be off my tits, or I'm I'm gonna be feeling rough, don't want to get out of bed, or haven't slept, so I'll be sleeping all day tomorrow. So then my work's ruined, I won't make the money, I'll lose contracts with people. And that that to me was it was either carry on doing it or lose my business and don't have an income and ruin my life.

Therapy And Processing Loss

SPEAKER_01 11:16

Yeah, being aware of the the consequences. Yeah, yeah. Consequences are huge. Absolutely. Going back to the apprentice, you made a a winner walk pact with Lord Sugar. Have you got it towed? I have got it towed. I'm sure I was gonna say it's got it towed, yeah. I think what's interesting about winner walk is that that all or nothing mindset is synonymous with addiction. Is that what drives that sort of winner walk attitude?

SPEAKER_00 11:44

I'm kind of like in my mind now, I'm like, I live every day as it comes, so I don't plan too much. Because if you start planning, then again it's more to think about, it's more to it's more worry. I kind of I figure out as I go. So the win I walk is in the in the show, for example, was I'm probably gonna go here. What can I do? Let's win a walk. Let's just I'm just kind of I just say things, I don't really think about things.

SPEAKER_01 12:10

Are you the first person that's done that sort of deal with the vlogging?

SPEAKER_00 12:13

Yeah, I'm the only person, yeah, in 20 years.

SPEAKER_01 12:15

That's mental, isn't it? Why do you f why why do you think he actually he went for it then?

SPEAKER_00 12:20

We got on quite well. I think he made a comment that he saw he saw he reminded I reminded him wait, I reminded him of me when he was younger. Yeah. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 12:33

You reminded him of himself when he was younger. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, I get it. Yeah, I got it.

SPEAKER_00 12:38

So I think he was like, right, we'll just give him one more go. Yeah. Give him one more chance. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:43

I'd have tried milking it another time as well. How about like double or nothing? Yeah. That's interesting. But is it is it synonymous with like that addiction personality then?

SPEAKER_00 12:55

I'd probably say so, right? Because like you say, you don't just have one when you're in when you've got an addiction. You don't just do something once, you do it. You either don't do it or you're doing it. That's it, yeah. So yeah, it's kind of the same.

SPEAKER_01 13:07

That's why I think it's quite interesting that you've managed to implement that sort of three-point limit. Because someone with addiction problems does no such thing. I mean, I smoke like the trooper, mate. Two's too many and one's not enough for the thing because the all the thing goes.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

But there's a freeze to finish, yeah, and then the fourth danger.

SPEAKER_01 13:24

Yeah, okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:24

That's just me. But I I'm where I I used to be a big drinker, like that doesn't really get me to a to a level of drunk. So which it's that's quite like, oh right, relax, I'm relaxed now, I go home. And that's only like I do that twice a week, where it was every day.

SPEAKER_01 13:40

Do you know one of the things that do does baffle me about addiction is that you've said now that you're smoking more than ever. I've seen people give up alcohol after severe alcohol dependency, heroin after, do you know, severe heroin dependency. But they can't they can't drop SIGs.

SPEAKER_00 13:56

The thing is, SIGs are illegal.

Cravings And Consequences Mindset

SPEAKER_01 13:58

So is it that's the thing? Is it like a moral thing then? Like I've got to be, you know, it's not found upon. Oh, okay. So it's more like the stigma of I suppose smoking is is is much more accepted than you doing a line of cocaine at, you know, and the street sort of thing. I get that. I just think it's I do think it's interesting because I think out of the three, you know, well cocaine as well, that if you if you wanted to give something up, that would have been the easier option. But some people say, well, I need to have at least something. Let yeah, so you're like it's like me.

SPEAKER_00 14:31

Like I cigarettes are the it's the easiest way you go into any shop and buy a pack of cigarettes. You know, you can't go in a shop and buy, you know, you can buy alcohol, of course, but even you walk out with two crates of beers, even that's frowned upon a little bit, you know. And it's obviously it's the inconvenience of having to carry around two crates of beers. And again, you don't have cigs fits in your pocket. In my head, is you know, I smoke, but if say I was to go and have 12 pints, I'm gonna feel like shit and ruin my day the next day. If I have a pack of cigarettes, it's not gonna affect my next day. Yeah, so it's the difference of the consequences of it, isn't it? It's the aftermath, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

I get that. Do you know when you look back, um what was what was cocaine actually doing for you then? And and I mean that in sense of like, you know, you talked about the bereavement of your dad. So was it helping your cope? You've mentioned obviously like that escapism, helping you perform. Can you really nail down what it is that cocaine was doing for you as an individual?

SPEAKER_00 15:28

It was making me feel like someone I I I wasn't. So I didn't want to be who I was at the time. So it was it was to forget me and be someone else. So was there was there a peer pressure in it at all? Didn't intend to do that.

SPEAKER_01 15:42

No, that's no, no, no. So yeah, I thought that might have been something being around those again goes back to that that's it.

SPEAKER_00 15:48

It's just so easily available, that's the problem. It's like with anything now in this world. Yeah, trying to if you want something, it's only 15-20 minutes away.

SPEAKER_01 15:55

I know it's crazy, isn't it? I I saw an advert for deliverable that they can deliver cat food and stuff to you now. Even that still baffles, even that still baffles me. That you know, I could get could get cat food delivered to you. How do you see like cocaine culture now then? Because I I guess what's it what's your view on the the stigma and the normalisation that comes with it? We've mentioned about how normal it is. What is your personal view? Could could that ever change, or do you think now it has been normalised?

SPEAKER_00 16:20

Is where we're at. Do you know what is what I find the most the most funny is so I'll go and have my three points, but I'll sit there and I could probably 95% of the people who are on it, I could pick out and point out for you.

SPEAKER_01 16:34

Really?

SPEAKER_00 16:35

And because it's so obvious now where you where normally when you're on it, you're like, oh yeah, no one knows I'm on it. They they fucking do. Yeah, like it is so obvious. Like people's eyes, people's mouths, like you know, the way they lick their lips, it's you know, the way they're talking to people, their voices just changed.

SPEAKER_01 16:51

And is that something that you'd only know though if you've experienced that yourself? Because I don't think so. I could sit in a pub and fully be able to tell who's on who's on cook. Unless it's like going like that with the nose and stuff.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

I know I think yeah, you have to you have to you have to know it quite well. I could pick I could pick anyone out who's on it pretty much. Yeah, it's hilarious. Yeah, and it's quite and it's quite nice because then you're like, I don't want to look like that. I don't want to be that person.

SPEAKER_01 17:13

That is the other thing because again, got going back to like when people talk about their the history of alcohol dependency, or even even drug use, you know, people have that had heroin addiction, they say once they see someone on I remember speaking to this guy before and I said, How do you do you feel when you see someone who is clearly under the influence of like heroin? He said, You know, part of me thinks like, Oh god, I can't believe that I ever you know ever looked like that myself. Yeah. He said, The other thing he thinks is I could do with a bit of that, but then he also had a relapse and died actually that person. So but it's interesting to kind of look at that mentality. I guess uh what is it that you're thinking when you are seeing these people then that are clearly still using coconut?

SPEAKER_00 17:49

What's your your view on it? Uh you know, it's in that moment in time, it's you know, I'd love to go over and say, Look, you know, is there anything I can help with? But when someone's high, they're just gonna not speak to you, and there's you know, there's the risk of violence, yeah, you know, mouthing off. So you kind of just have to sit back and watch it happen. Don't get involved, don't encourage, just if people need to speak out and help themselves, yeah. But there's options out there, and if it's not a problem for them at that time, yeah, they're not gonna address it. Yeah, exactly. They're not gonna listen if they're high.

SPEAKER_01 18:24

When did you realise that it really was a problem then?

SPEAKER_00 18:27

I was sat in a pub and I kind of just thought, I'm not having fun anymore. I just sat there in silence by myself, so I just called my mum up and said I need help. And she went, Yeah, I know, but I've been waiting for you to realise you need to help yourself. And then yeah, we just we done it together, we got therapy, we went through the stages.

SPEAKER_01 18:46

That must be hard as a as a parent to kind of know that your your son is going through something. But knowing that, I mean, you get like helicopter parenting dirt, yeah, do you know, and it happens when you have toddlers, but for some people, do you know they kind of that transcends into their adult life as well. I'm quite lucky that my parents you know took a massive step back from me in those, you know, sort of informative years. But it must be hard knowing that your son has a a substance problem, and knowing that you have to wait for them to realise that it's a problem as well.

SPEAKER_00 19:16

Well, yeah, because then you don't listen otherwise, you know, and then you end up fighting against each other. But yeah, bless her. She's you know, she called around all the local pubs, like, don't serve him, don't serve him if I find out you've served him. That's brilliant, yeah. No, like she's she's feisty, mate. Yeah, but but yeah, no, they all listen to uh like I was friends with like all the landlords, and they were like, No, you're not coming in today, mate. Yeah, your mum's been on the phone, like I'm like grown man, like come on, but no, so it's quite nice, but without that, I probably would still be on it. Yeah, was there any resentment towards your mum at that time? Yeah, we're we're best friends, mate, still are to this day, and then probably we're closer than we ever have been because I'm so I've been open and honest with her, yeah, which is really nice.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

You've mentioned obviously therapy. Did you go into the rooms of like CA or anything?

SPEAKER_00 20:06

No, I never did that.

SPEAKER_01 20:08

No, never like a fellowship route or anything like that.

SPEAKER_00 20:10

No, never. Just kind of just went, right, this is this is it, start talking.

SPEAKER_01 20:15

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:16

That's interesting, you can do that because a lot of people would find it hard to to kick up.

SPEAKER_00 20:20

What I what I would find at the at the start would be talking to in a big group, this is where it's private and confidential, just one person, one room, and it doesn't go anywhere. That was kind of my right, this is quite private. I don't want anyone else to know. But obviously, since then I I talk about it because I I want to help other people with it.

SPEAKER_01 20:39

On that topic then, do you know if if someone if someone's listening to this and they had a cocaine problem and they're identified that it is a problem, what advice would you would you give to them?

SPEAKER_00 20:51

You gotta figure out what the best thing is for you. For me, it was speaking to someone, whether you want to speak to a group with the same issues, or you want to speak to someone who hasn't got an issue, and they can advise you on sometimes it's not it's not about talking about the coke issue, sometimes it's about talking about other issues that are leading to that issue.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:12

Because it's not just I like coke, which is why I do it, there's normally something else to it which causes the addiction. For for me, it was my dad dying. So you kind of gotta like step back, think about it, who you're gonna affect, but also why did you get in this position in the first place? And how do you resolve that issue to then resolve the coke issue?

SPEAKER_01 21:35

No, that's that's that's really helpful. I've got a series of questions I'd like to ask all my guests before before we we finish. Okay. Quick fire, if you can, it's quite difficult. Okay. Favourite word? Coke. No, joking. It's on my mind. You know, weirdly enough, I remember you was here, right? The little the little pause on the same coke. Favourite word? How tricky these questions? That's a good one, actually. Least favourite. Sand. Something that excites you. Football. Something that drains your energy or just doesn't excite you. Work. I'm surprised like that. I thought that was something that really drains my energy, that's a very good idea. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Put it in that context, yeah. Favourite sound?

SPEAKER_00 22:18

Opening a can.

SPEAKER_01 22:19

What sound or noise do you hear?

SPEAKER_00 22:22

Or a buzzing of a bee. Dream job. Astronaut.

SPEAKER_01 22:27

That's a good one.

SPEAKER_00 22:28

I like that. Cheers. Worst job that you can imagine doing. Or working on a farm.

unknown 22:33

I'd love that.

SPEAKER_00 22:34

No, just cleaning out. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 22:36

Yeah, that element of it, yeah, I can understand. And then lastly, if God exists, what would you like to hear him say when you arrive at the Pearley gates? My dad's safe. That's lovely. Karen, thank you so much for joining me on Believe in People. Thank you. And if you've enjoyed this episode of the Believe in People Podcast, we'd love for you to share it with others who might find it meaningful. Don't forget to hit that subscribe button so you never miss an episode. Leaving a review will help us reach more people and continue challenging stigma around addiction and recovery. For additional resources, insights and updates, explore the links in this episode description. And to learn more about our mission and hear more incredible stories, you can visit us directly at believingpeoplepodcast.com.