Michelle Heaton: Five Years Sober, Motherhood, Alcohol, Cocaine and Finding Recovery - Believe in People LIVE

Live Recording And Welcome

SPEAKER_11 0:00

This is a renewed original recording. Hello and welcome to season three of Believe in People, the British podcast award-winning series exploring addiction, recovery, and the stigma that surrounds them. I'm Matthew Butler, your host, or as I like to say, your facilitate. In today's episode of Believe in People, we're bringing you something a little different. For the first time ever, we've recorded the podcast live in front of an audience at the DDN Conference. One of the UK's largest events dedicated to drugs, alcohol, and recovery. Making her third appearance on our podcast is Michelle Heat. Now, on the five easings of her recovery journey, Michelle reflects on addiction, treatment, motherhood, stigma, and the lessons she learned since getting sober. Then, after our conversation, stay with us for a special Q ⁇ A where members of the audience put their own questions to Michelle, leading to some honest, emotional, and thought-provoking discussions.

SPEAKER_04 0:57

Hi! Hello, everybody. You all having a good day?

SPEAKER_11 1:03

Michelle, obviously, you've you've been on our series a few times now. This is the third appearance. The first time that we spoke, you had nine months of sobriety under your belt. The second time was 18 months, so there was a little bit of a distance there, and now it's it's been how long's it been now?

SPEAKER_04 1:18

Um five years and three months. Five years and three months! Wonderful. You're making me well out already. Oh my god, I cry at everything, but thanks, guys.

SPEAKER_11 1:35

I thought the tears had come a little bit later. That's actually a waste of. Michelle, there'll be so many people. Obviously, we we've done this twice before. There'll be so many people here that that don't know your story. And I don't want to bring up like the old war wounds or such, but can you tell me a little bit about it? Because I think when we first met, my understanding was because you've been in a in a pop group, because you've you're a Brit award winner, you've been in those circles, there's almost this idea or this understanding

When The Party Became A Problem

SPEAKER_11 2:00

that celebrities naturally have this party lifestyle where drugs and alcohol play a massive part of it. But at the height of your fame, that that wasn't the case for you, was it? It actually came a little bit later. So can you kind of talk us through when it became a problem for you and what the what the problem was as well?

SPEAKER_04 2:15

Yeah, I mean, don't get me wrong, there was a lot of alcohol and drugs in in pop stardom. I had a great time. I'm not gonna lie, like it was brilliant. I was 21, I was in a pop group, and we travelled the world, and it was it was everything that you imagine it to be, but it was fun, it was harmless. I could put it down at night and and get up the next day and go to work and be responsible and continue that, right? And there was no point where I was, I suppose, reliant upon anything other than the music and my career. But I think for me personally, from a very young age, and we hear this all the time with addicts, is like, you know, I felt different, I knew something was going on, or I had my first sip of alcohol and I arrived, you know. For me, it wasn't alcohol or drugs, it was it was food. So I had the food noise, and I still battle with that today. Food changed the way that I felt about myself, and so I didn't feel good about myself. You know, I still battled with that as well now, and so whenever I felt sad or lonely or depressed or happy or elated or tired, I would turn to food, and that was my first love and hate relationship, and then throughout my life, you know, that got replaced with slimming pills because then I was trying to counteract the damage I did with food, and then so that came on board, and then it was binge eating and diet pills, and then there was speed because that gave me a bit of both, and then there was speed, and then there was alcohol, and so looking back, there's always been an addictive behaviour with anything that can change the way that I feel about myself, and I didn't know how to live life without having to change the way I felt because I felt so insecure. You know, this is way before being in a pop band, you know, that just aspirated that feeling of insecurity for me, being, you know, popular and known, and the press writing about me and people recognising me, like all of those thoughts, you know, I'm not good enough, I'm not pretty enough, I can't sing as good as the other girls, all of those came, you

Food Noise And Addictive Patterns

SPEAKER_04 4:25

know, more frequently that then I turned to other things to escape. I about 12 years ago, I had to have a total hysterectomy and a double massectomy in reconstruction because I have the bracket cancer gene. And now I can see a real relation between having that, those operations, going into menopause very early, and having a disconnect with myself even more than what I was already suffering with. I turned to what was then working for me, which was drinking drugs. And my relationship between with drinking drugs was the only way that I felt normal. And so without it, I'd feel sad, lonely, depressed. I couldn't relate to my peers who weren't going through menopause, who were still going out and partying and doing all of that, but then you know, coming home and being a responsible parent. I soon found out that I had no off switch. I suppose for many years I thought that was normal. I thought everybody else was like me. I thought surely they carry on the party when they go home as well, or do it in isolation. Um, and I convinced myself for so long that this was, you know, okay, that it was fine. And then came the hospital stays, and I had uh sclerosis of the liver and my pancreas still doesn't work now, and all of those, you know, yets that come, like you know, when if I end up in hospital, I'll stop. Well, that didn't make me stop because I would leave a hospital and I'd go straight to the off license and get another litre of vodka. You know, if I got caught with my cocaine from my husband, then I'll stop. Well, that happened and it didn't stop, it just makes you want more and manipulate and and and do what you can to get that thing. And and I did want to stop a few times, but then when I tried, I found I couldn't. And being in the public eye, I was so scared of people finding out this is what I do. So I suppose I tried to hide it more, manipulate more, and that's when it became really dark.

SPEAKER_11 6:43

I I think the the interesting thing there

Hospital, Hiding And Hitting Darkness

SPEAKER_11 6:45

is from someone with without that perspective, when you say, if this sent me to hospital, I would stop, if if my husband caught me with this, I would stop. Why? And there'll be so many people in the audience today that that are in recovery that will understand why that wasn't enough to stop. But for someone without that experience, that would make me think, right, I've gotta I've gotta suck my shit out now. Yeah, sure. How come how come that wasn't enough? How come it didn't stop you from from continuing to to follow that pattern of behaviour?

SPEAKER_04 7:11

Yeah, that's a that's a good question because obviously, like my friends and my family were would pose that question. Why can't you just stop? You know, you've just came out of the hospital. You know, my my kids are crying that I've that I've you know not been able to take them to school yet again because I'm too drunk to get in the car, or they've woke up and they come downstairs and I'm laid out on the sofa with a bottle of wine poured away by the side of me, or you know, my husband's come downstairs and found residue, you know, all of those things. Of course, a normal person would go, why can't you just stop? And then you start to question yourself, why can't I just stop? I don't get it. Why can't I just stop all of these things? And not nothing, nothing could could chale me from getting what I needed. Because it became, it wasn't just about like, okay, these things give me pleasure, like that that shifted quite quickly. It was that I needed these things to breathe. Like, I if I woke up, when sometimes I wouldn't go to bed, obviously, like I woke up in the morning. If I didn't have a swiggy vodka, I couldn't cope. Like my body shut down, and obviously I didn't know it was shutting down, but you just feel like you need that to level yourself out. Like all of the things and the knowledge that I've gained through getting sober and attending things like this and speaking to fellows, like I know that now. I know my body was shutting down, and I know about you know, stopping immediately can cause death and suffering, and and and and I know all that now. But at the time, why can't you just stop? Just makes you then punish yourself more. So then drinking drugs was also a punishment because I didn't feel like I deserved help because I was such a bad mum, I was such a bad wife. I, you know, I I would do I would do incoherent things that no mum, self-respecting mum or or or adult should really do. So then I would do it because it would punish me, or well, I might as well die. And I think like I think like one of the hardest things one of the darkest places that I was at was when I was at peace with the fact that I was gonna die. I don't know if that's relatable for anybody here.

SPEAKER_11 9:27

I was just about to ask, is that like a relating? That's a weird thing to say.

SPEAKER_05 9:37

Okay, isn't that just fucking heartbreaking?

SPEAKER_01 9:47

There are so many of you relate to that. Isn't that awful?

SPEAKER_04 9:52

That we were at peace that we were gonna die, and that was all here with us because we couldn't see any way out, we didn't feel like we deserved help, we didn't know there was help out there, we didn't know how to ask for it, we were ashamed, we couldn't stop and didn't know why, and so it was easier to just go, okay, well, if this is my life, then then that's it, then I'm I'm okay with that. And that's that's fucking awful. And I suppose, you know, my fellows out there relating to that. It's it's heartbreaking to see how many of you relate to that.

Withdrawal, Obsession And No Off Switch

SPEAKER_11 10:32

One of the one of the things that interests me, obviously, when you're out at that point, is like because alcohol is so accessible. I I've met people who are experiencing alcohol withdrawal but don't realise that they've experienced withdrawal from alcohol. When was the first time you experienced like withdrawal from these substances? And and was you aware at the time of when you was experiencing that this was because you weren't drinking in the way that your body needed you to drink?

SPEAKER_04 10:58

No, I think I don't think there was a clock on, you know, to be honest. I think it just became an habitual habit that turns into addiction. And I don't know when that happened. I you know, it it's a very grey area. You know, I can't say, right, okay, so it was it was six months into drinking every day that then I had to drink. I I actually have no idea.

SPEAKER_11 11:21

Was it was it a scary moment when you realised that you you have to have this just to feel like a sense of normalcy in your body?

SPEAKER_04 11:28

I think for me it was you see, I would never have said I was a cook addict. It was it I I I could not admit that. And and I s and and I thought I wasn't. I thought I did it now and again, and it was such a lie. I do it now and again as like, oh, five packets for four, you know, and um there's always an excuse, and and and I would be very clever at just having a little bit at a time so that I didn't open everything at once, and and and but then of course when it's dry, then I go and get some more, and it was it was every day, you know. And I think when I went on holidays with a family and I couldn't get what I wanted, and I was so scared about trying to find it, that the obsession was so on me when I was away when I didn't have it, it was like I had it, and so I was uh so my behaviour was despicable because I didn't have that substance to level me out, and so I would turn to more alcohol and the tequila and and stuff I would never usually drink, and which meant that I was planning my pickup as soon as I got as soon as I landed, you know, whatever I could do to manipulate it. And obviously you kind of think, oh this isn't this isn't normal, but you don't think you're like you don't you don't give yourself a speaking to and go right, Michelle, you know, like if you're an addict like me, you don't anyway. You know, you don't go at any point and go, right, maybe, maybe I need to stop. So let's let's let's stop for a while because maybe you say that once and then within half an hour you're calling in. Like I remember many times flushing it away, swearing it off, like the the night off often and be like, right, this is this what what am I doing? I'm actually dying. I've got blood coming out my nose, I've got you know, my skin's translucent, you know, when you see your veins and you'd be scratching and you're itchy, and it's all of that, and you're just like, I can't do this anymore. And then as soon as you get rid of it, you're calling it back in, or you're going back to the off license. Like it's it it it's it's it on you so much that you can't breathe without it, and that's it. Only way I can kind of describe how I

The Moment Help Became Real

SPEAKER_04 13:46

felt.

SPEAKER_11 13:46

It's it's obviously it's been you know five years now, but what was the one of the things that we'd like to explore is is that some people call it the light bulb moment, some people call it a rock bottom moment where things you know can't possibly get any worse. I have to make those changes. You've just said then there was times when you flushed it away but went back to it. Was there a specific moment where it was like, right, I have to stop this now, I have to make some changes, and if so, what was it?

SPEAKER_04 14:15

I think for about two years before getting help, I was in that mind frame, but I didn't know how to get to the point of help, and I was so shameful of admitting it and worried about m losing my career, my family, and what that looked like because there's obviously a stigma, right? Until you come in recovery and you assume that it's the worst thing in the world, and that no one's ever gonna love you or trust you again, and you're gonna lose everything, and and and you know, you convince yourself you're not really an addict because you don't look like an addict. I mean, if you look around this room, there's nobody that looks like an addict, you know, we all relatively normal.

SPEAKER_11 14:54

Yeah, I guess that's it.

SPEAKER_04 14:54

Yeah, but there's a massive stigma, and and so you convince yourself that you're not one of one of them, and I think so. For two years, I I definitely felt like I I wanted to stop or that I needed to stop but couldn't. And it was for me, I was with I was actually with Katie Price and she had just came out of of rehab and she was sober. So Katie Sober's a Katie Sober is like, what the fuck? Angela like, you know, and I'm like, I went to meet her, she shows up, she has a tendency not to show up to things, so I was pleasantly surprised she showed up. So I call this my God moment. I'm not religious, but this is my definite higher power God moment because she was everything I needed to be at that moment in time, and so I suppose it took me being with somebody who was like me, who would then wasn't using or drinking like me, for me to recognise that maybe I could do that. And and and all this help was there before, like my husband tried to stage an intervention, my manager tried to get me in a rehab, and all of this help was there, but I didn't feel I needed it, or I would talk my way out of it and convince them I'd try and get better without it, until I was presented with somebody who had it and who was like me, and and then I was able to go, what did you do? And I listened, and and and that was my journey of recovery.

SPEAKER_11 16:17

That's that's the power of visible recovery, isn't it? That's why I think it's so important and to have especially very I think the thing that I love is going into areas and and Kara Cox, who was here earlier, she told me something really poignant before. She said in in her within Chase Recovery, she said sometimes she said, even though she's got years of sobriety under her belt, for the person who's coming through the door the first time, it's better to speak to someone who's only maybe got three months under the belt rather than someone like seasoned, you know, simple seasoned in their recovery because they can relate to it more so. And I think that's quite point that you spoke to Kate because she was fresh out of because then it's tangible, isn't it? You can actually see it and you think, well, actually, I saw you only a couple of months ago as well when you was in that place. So to see it, because if someone says, Oh, I've got you know 15 years, you're like, I'm never gonna get that. Yeah, you almost just unobtainable. Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_04 17:06

I mean, if somebody had told me I had been I was gonna be five years back then, I would have laughed at them. I remember my husband who who is doesn't drink at all, you know. At the very beginning, he's like, you know, if if if you stay sober for six months, we'll go out and have a you can have a glass of wine, and I'm like, yeah, great, okay. And then you soon realize, oh, this is forever. But forever seems long, you know, like even when I even now when I think about the future or I think about my daughter's wedding or my son's wedding, and and think about those moments in time, I'm like, oh how am I gonna feel then? And and I don't know, but I know for today, and we say keep it in today, you know, whatever, is that I'm okay and I don't need to drink today. And and and that's where I where I kind of keep it. Anything else, I don't need to worry about it. It's okay, it'll

Letting Go Of Normal Drinking

SPEAKER_04 17:56

be alright.

SPEAKER_11 17:56

Well, was that a scary prospect then? Because the the what you just said about your husband, then he was almost treating it like dry January, you know, just almost like you didn't understand the extent of the problem. You know, is it a scary prospect to think I will never be able to drink normally again? Like how hard was that to uh adjust to?

SPEAKER_04 18:12

I think for me, if somebody, if somebody could convince me and have evidence that I could drink like a normal person, I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't do it. You know, I I loved alcohol. I I had a I loved it. I loved the social aspects, I loved drinking it, I loved the taste of it. But those fond memories of euphoria were way before, you know, I got help. Like we're talking 10, 20 years ago, but that's what I can remember, right? And we're very quick, or our minds work very differently when we're addicts, and we've got it's very quickly reminding us those wonderful moments that we then, oh, wouldn't it be lovely if I just had that glass of wine when I had my steak? And and yeah, it would be, but fuck, I know what's gonna happen. Yeah, and as long as I continue to remind myself, and I don't mean by battering myself with old photos every day, like I'm not a big fan of that at all. I do do meetings, I do take people through sponsorship, but for me, as long as I rema remain active in recovery, what I mean by that is something like this, going to events like this, talking to somebody, listening to podcasts. Oh my god, even watching A Star is Born, for fuck's sake. I remember when I watched that film and I was like massively into it, and and I remember thinking, God, I'm I'm fucking him.

SPEAKER_05 19:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:40

I w sorry, I wish I was fucking him.

SPEAKER_01 19:42

But I wasn't going at the most men I like that one.

SPEAKER_04 19:46

But but like I'm him and I'm sat there in the cinema, and I remember like going really small in my seat and thinking, oh my god, like that that is me. Oh yeah, it was grateful. I'm thinking, oh my god. But whatever, whatever can, you know, reminds me that I'm not normal, that I know what would happen because I know how I am with alcohol. Like I cannot put it down. I go to restaurants now and I'm I'm good with going out and being around it. I don't tend to make a habit of it, but I'm good with it. But I remember you know, I see somebody across the table with a glass of wine and it's there for an hour, and they're they're still like on their third sip, and it's just sad there, and I'm like, they're not normal. Like what what like or or they leave half a bottle of wine and just oh it's alright. And I'm like, no. Oh my god. Like that to me is not normal, which makes me know that I can't drink.

SPEAKER_11 20:40

I get that, yeah. It's good to kind of have that reminder without having to, you know, be put in like a way where it is almost risky to you. I mean, that ties me to my next question, actually, because I want to know what's changed most about the way that you understand recovery today.

Friends, Fellowship And The Power Of No

SPEAKER_11 20:53

Because again, nine months, 80 months, uh five years and three months, big differences each time. And I noticed that the second time we spoke to you, even that additional nine months, there was a lot of changes. So, what has changed most in the way that you understand recovery today, in terms of a lot of the maybe the do's and don'ts that you were given at the beginning to now?

SPEAKER_04 21:12

Yeah. I think it it's it was definitely important for me not to not not to pressure myself to go out to places, you know. I suppose being in the career that I am, I I am constantly around alcohol and and or drugs. And that was that was imperative to for me to kind of navigate straight away because I had to work. So, you know, Jess and Kell from the group are not like me, and they were, you know, my my shields, and they made sure that there wasn't alcohol in our dressing rooms and made those informed decisions for me without making me feel stupid or being the one. So I think core group of friends that understand what's going on or who are willing to hear what's going on is really important. Friend groups. Oh my god, like I thought these birds. I was hanging out with down the road with my best mates, and they just disappeared when I went to rehab. They went running. And I still haven't really heard from them today. They never once called me up to see how I was doing. You know, obviously, I think part of it is their self-reflection on themselves, knowing what they are and and and what they are doing. And maybe they don't want to admit what they're doing, or or you know, maybe there's a part of guilt there, but unfortunately, or fortunately for me, they haven't entered my life again, and and that's okay. I found it hard to begin with. I felt really let down by by what I would have called really good friends, but I have to understand that that's for a reason now because they weren't necessarily good for me.

SPEAKER_11 22:44

I think that's that is one of the things that people often say is one of the harder parts of recovery, is that you have to obviously change so much about yourself, but it's your social situation and your circumstances. You know, the people that you thought were were friends aren't friends. How difficult was that for you? And I mean, obviously, you've got your bandmates who've been supportive. How difficult was that to create almost like that new friendship group and that new support group? Did you find that in the fellowship?

SPEAKER_04 23:09

Yeah, I mean, I've definitely got a core group of women from the fellowship that you know that I that I have, and and that's great. And they're my support system when I want to talk about something that maybe one of my best mates wouldn't understand. But I do keep things quite separate. You know, I I don't necessarily want recovery to be my whole life. Yeah, I don't want it to define me, but I need it. I know I need it. I feel like, you know, if it's not broke, don't fix it. And I've seen I've seen too many times women dropping out of their recovery circle and then coming back, and I don't want that to be my narrative. But you know, for me, I I do keep that separate to like my mates and who I do go out with, and I might meet them down the pub for a meal and they'll they they drink, and I'm good with that. I don't have any issue with that, but it wasn't like that in the beginning. I just think you have to know really why why do you go why do you need to go out? What is the reason? Do you have to be there? And the power of saying no is so good, like it makes you feel so strong. Oh, ah, I would I would never say no to anything. I would have said yes to everything, and just saying no, and if there's a silence, you don't have to fill it. Like, I'm so used to giving excuses, like no, because blah blah. Okay, then I'll try and make it. Like, like whatever. Like it's just no, I'm sorry, I don't fancy that, or no, I'm busy. Nobody needs an excuse. Yeah, and that's so powerful now in recovery. So I do ask myself, do I want to go? Do I need to go? What is my reason? And and if there's none of those three questions good enough, then I say no.

SPEAKER_11 24:53

No.

SPEAKER_04 24:53

Yeah.

Women, Stigma And Asking For Help

SPEAKER_11 24:54

One of the things we we've talked about recently is how women recover differently. Although women make up a third of people in treatment in England, research suggests they often face additional barriers to accessing and staining treatment. What do you think makes recovery different for women?

SPEAKER_04 25:11

I think diagnosis for women can be slightly different because we're so, and I know I was from personal experience when I went when whenever I was in hospital or talked to a GP about quite obvious symptoms of addictions were often passed off for mental health um or irritable balance syndrome. Like I tried that a lot. I even almost got myself convinced to the GP that I had Crohn's disease at once, which I don't, and that's fucking awful to say out loud, but I was so desperate to be labelled as something else other than an addict. Because it's it's not something they're taught with. Like it's it's it's a it's a complete gray area for for doctors who can't give you a pill to sort you out. I think for me, you know, for women and and men, when we go, if we go and ask for help or or maybe seek advice, we're so used to being asked what's wrong, yeah, you automatically think that it's a bad thing to be an addict and that then you shouldn't talk about it or ask for help. I think if more people are inclined to ask what's going on rather than what's wrong, then you've already kind of opened the doors. Whereas when somebody says to me, What's wrong, I'm shut. Like I shut up, like I'm my doors are shut. I'm I'm in innovation and I'm saying, right, well, I'm not gonna tell you that I drink two litres of vodka because you've just told me what's wrong. So subconsciously, I don't want to admit that. Whereas if somebody was would would have said to me, What's going on with you, hmm, I might have thought about that question more and actually answered it.

SPEAKER_11 26:51

Yeah. I think it for for men, there's almost this idea, and I'm speaking for myself here, but this notion of not wanting to look weak, not wanting to ask for help, which is, you know, not it's not a great trait to have, but I know it's a thing that many men have. For women, there's almost this shame, especially when it comes to motherhood or feeling guilt, you know, because of the impacts that it can have on our family. So I mean, women face that that different kind of stigma around addiction. Do you think the shame makes it harder for women to ask for help?

SPEAKER_04 27:23

Ah, I mean, the thing is that I don't want to like say, oh, well, the men don't have that, of course they do. But I do think that as women, we're often told that we are, you know, we're the housemaker, we're the ones that have to look after the children. And so if you were to admit that you've got an alcohol or drug dependency, you automatically think the kids are going to be taken away.

SPEAKER_11 27:44

That's yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:45

Like that that was that was definitely one of my main concerns for not asking for help, like what's gonna happen to the children. And then, you know, as soon as I did ask for help, actually, the first thing that happened was social services was called.

SPEAKER_05 27:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:58

You know, my kids weren't taken away. They they evaluated the situation and they did a great job at doing so. But that is definite fear and being judged on the lack of lack of being not a present mother rather than help for what I need, you know.

SPEAKER_11 28:17

One of our previous participants recently said something that really rang true, and it was women don't want to be told how to get sober, they want to be told how they can get sober without losing their children. And I think that that additional barrier there, when we see the statistics of only a third of, you know, women in treatment in terms of the numbers, especially for even our local service in Hull, there has to be a reason for that, you know. And I I I do I do think I do think that is

Motherhood, Guilt And Living Amends

SPEAKER_11 28:43

it. And I kind of want to go back to what you were saying earlier, because you talked about, you know, your children would come down and they'd you know see the the empty bottles of wine. Going back to just try and put yourself in in that mindset, how much do you think that impacted them at the time, or do you think they was almost quite shielded from it with but from your husband?

SPEAKER_04 29:05

Just want to make me cry.

SPEAKER_11 29:06

No, no, I don't I don't. I genuinely I genuinely don't it's but it's an it's an interesting thing to to kind of look with five years under your belt. I guess it's how do you look back on that and how do you feel of how do you feel about that now?

SPEAKER_04 29:21

It's a tough one because you know they were young, face 14 now and AJ's 12, and they often say to me, you know, you weren't that bad when I do a meeting, for example, and like face like you know, you've got to do that for the rest of your life, and then I explain it and she's cool with it, but she'll question it, and that's that's normal. But the air effect definitely was evident when I when I went to rehab to them, I left one day and didn't come back. Um like so there wasn't any like I didn't know I was gonna go to rehab that quick. I didn't actually think I was gonna go to rehab, I just I just left the house with my friend took me away and and then I was and then I went to rehab, so I didn't say goodbye to the kids. They didn't really understand what was going on, and so I was away for like those four or five weeks, and for AJ especially, every time I left the house for a long time he he he didn't know if I was coming home.

SPEAKER_01 30:39

So I mean, yeah, there has to be a knock-on effect, of course there would be.

SPEAKER_11 30:43

The the the reason why I asked Michelle, and again it is it is a it is a harsh question, but it's so important in recovery to to make amends and to to learn to forgive yourself as well. And the reason I ask it is because I want to know how have you learned to forgive yourself for those things in order to have like a fulfilling life and a fulfilling relationship with your children now as well.

SPEAKER_04 31:05

I mean, if I'm being completely transparent, I don't think you you ever really get rid of all guilt, obviously. I think it'd be kind of strange for me to say, oh well, I'm you know, I don't blame myself for anything, you know. Like I think that would be a bit odd if I'm being honest. But of course, with Living Amends, the way that the kids have turned out now and how amazing they are, and our relationship, you know, it's not perfect, like me and Faith battle every day, she's 14, you know. And uh yeah, teenage air. But what recovery has allowed me to do uh is just be so present, not the perfect mum, but be there for them, even more so than what I would have done if I hadn't have gone through recovery. I think recovery and doing the steps and doing some work has really changed my perspective on all areas of life. Like my husband says it all the time, he's not one of us, and he's like like for him, he would benefit from doing some kind of step work and work on himself and infantry. And I think you know, I'm not perfect, I don't get it right all the time, but I definitely, definitely have a much better attitude when it comes to reactions because my reaction would be straight away before, and and my reactions were very harsh. Whereas I think being less reactive has kind of made my children definitely trust me more. My my son knows that when I leave or I go away for a few days for work, I'm coming home. You know, and I think I think over time kids' memories definitely do get a little bit more glazed than God.

Rehab, Detox And The Rooms

SPEAKER_11 32:46

I I want to go back to to the access to to treatment because I think people often look at stories like yours, and and you'd you've mentioned the the priory already, and it's interesting. I remember doing I remember struggling with with anxiety really bad. And I remember going to a uh I went to a CBT counsellor and I went in there and I almost thought they'd have a magic wand and be like, you're fixed. And I think people have that idea of treatment, and obviously it's not treatment for drug dependency, alcohol dependency is very difficult. And if you're going through services, you've got to jump through the hoops. Detox, rehab is expensive, you've got to show a commitment there. And I think sometimes people look at stories like yours, and not just yours, but anyone within that celebrity, you know, sphere and people that can go to the priory and it's like, well, she could go to the priory, that's why she got better. But you said before that rehab got me clean, but but the rooms keep me sober.

SPEAKER_04 33:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_11 33:41

Does that challenge the idea that recovery can simply just be something that you can go out and buy?

SPEAKER_04 33:47

Um oh gosh, absolutely, absolutely. I think I I definitely had that attitude. Like I went in the priory with heels and like a going out outfit because I was like, this is gonna go rock and roll, like it's gonna be so cool. Like I'm like Amy Winehouse came here, and you know, this is gonna be amazing, and and then it was and like that all. It was it's a mental institution, you know.

SPEAKER_11 34:07

I was gonna say, give us some insight into the priory as well.

SPEAKER_04 34:09

Because I mean, well, everything's taken away, obviously, and and you go through medical checks at the beginning and you assign that your husband can find out everything, and that was the first time he knew I had a cookie and addiction.

SPEAKER_05 34:21

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_04 34:21

Um so he was told by by the doctors there. And it was, you know, like the first couple of weeks, you're on like a you're monitored, everything's filmed, there's no there's no curtains, there's no doors where the toilet is because of people committing suicide and hurting themselves and trying to get out. And I it was it was like being back at university, you know, we learned about what addiction is, and we learned what the steps were. We did a lot of like a lot of sitting around, a lot of talking, a lot of talking, and and I felt really good at the end of the four weeks, and I was like, oh my god, great, I can live a life without drinking alcohol. And then I got home and it was like fuck. Like, oh my god, like they they don't teach you in there how to cope with life, and and and yeah, it gave me my 28 days, and that was amazing for me. I needed I needed that detox, I needed that time, but it but it was it was after when I got home where the hard work started. Uh for me anyway. You know, you're back to your normal life, you're back to the surroundings where you drank, you used, you go to, you know, you get out your house, you see the off license, you see the people, you you know, you you the children are doing it heading, the husband's got to work, so you're by yourself all day. And so everything's the way it was, but without your corporate mechanism, and um and and so you have to find another way to cope, or or things that help you cope. And for me, it was it was the rooms of of CA and I I only learned about that briefly in rehab, that they're available, and then and then I remember when I came out around Denise Welsh, who's very open about her recovery, and I was like, I don't know what to do. Like, I feel like I'm going insane. I I need I need a drink, like like that feeling of like I cannot breathe was straight away since I went in out of the primary, it was like there, and she's like, You need to get yourself to a meeting. She said, face to face, I said, I can't, I can't, I'm sort of embarrassed. She said, Well, just try online. And it was COVID, they were all online, so helpful, so amazing. Thank God they were online, because I don't think I would have gone. And then I started going and went with a hat on, and I didn't have my camera on much, and and then these girls started inboxing me, and I was like, Oh yeah, yeah, what you know, I was thinking they want tickets for a show or something like that. And it was like, of course, they don't like that they want to get rid of a terrifying drug habit too. And I just didn't think about it until it was explained to me that nobody gives a shit who you are, like, addiction doesn't discriminate. Most of the people that, in fact, 99% of the people that are in the rooms with me are not ex-pop stars, they're not famous, they're not celebrities, they're normal people. And so I got brought right down to earth. My ego went, and I was just like, right, okay, I just I just need help and guidance, and so that's where I found my people.

SPEAKER_11 37:22

We had uh Kevin Kennedy on the podcast, and he he played Curly Watts in Coronation Street, and this was back on terrestrial TV where there's four channels, and if you was on the telly back then, you was proper famous. And he shared a story about the first time he went to a detox or uh into a fellowship meeting, and he said he went in there and he said how humbling it was when nobody gave a fuck who it was. And I was like, that's and that is it. Yeah, that's it. People people don't care once you're in that space, do they?

SPEAKER_04 37:49

Yeah, no, and I find it so amazing that everyone's there of their own free will, and we, you know, you're there and you nobody gets paid, and you know, and people help people, like that blew my mind. Like that a woman wanted to help me and and not get anything out of it. It really blew my mind that there was that there's women out there who are willing to give their time to somebody to help them like they were helped, and and and I just think that's amazing. But yeah.

Menopause, Hormones And Misdiagnosis

SPEAKER_11 38:24

Just to talk about obviously the specific women's health issues that that you're experienced. You described the age early surgical menopause that became part of the story behind your addiction. Is there something that you wish every substance misuse service out there understood about the relationship between menopause, hormones, and women's recovery as well?

SPEAKER_04 38:42

Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_11 38:43

Because it's so it could be so misdiagnosed or misunderstood, do you know?

SPEAKER_04 38:47

Yeah, I mean, I think menopause is so misdi misunderstood and misdiagnosed and like addiction, the very it's it's it's it it actually kind of combines a lot of the time because when you when you hit menopause, for those women who are pre-menopausal or in it, like you'll you'll relate, you you don't know you're really in it until you're in it. And then you you question your mental health and you question your sanity and and you're irritable, you're discontent, and you you might go at the GP and they'll probably fob it off with anxiety, and then and then more than often we'll drink a bit too much because there's nothing else to do, or or we're trying to find a release, and that's our little release. And actually, drinking alcohol can make menopause symptoms worse, and then you're in this fucking awful cycle again and again. But there's there's a definite stigma and relationship between you know women when it comes to mental health issues with menopause and addiction, and being fobbed off with okay, it's anxiety, or maybe you need to do more exercise and and not actually looking at the problem.

Triggers, Joy And Staying Connected

SPEAKER_11 39:55

Let's talk about recovery beyond abstinence because obviously recovery is more than just simply stopping, you know, drinking, stop taking substances, and I think people misunderstand that, don't they? Yeah, definitely. We had someone recently talking about the the differences between being in recovery and being in recovery, you know, and and being two very different things, which I thought was really interesting. But tell me, what does recovery actually give you now?

SPEAKER_04 40:21

I I mean the best way that I can put it is that like like stop drinking and using was easy, but it's the continued living without it. That's the hard bit. And recovery for me is being connected. Knowing what my triggers are, triggers a huge, huge thing. My triggers are my kids actually. And when I when I say that, I mean like when when when all else fails and you're just in that absolute sheer anger of why can't they just do what you want them to do? Or why can't they listen? How selfish, you know, that that and it's just oh like I would have just gone downstairs and and had a bottle of wine. You know, it's the simple things that are on my triggers, not necessarily going to restaurants or seeing other people drink, it's it's those moments having the ability to breathe and pause and not react. Learning that and recovery was huge for me.

SPEAKER_11 41:21

What what brings you joy now that alcohol never could bring you?

SPEAKER_04 41:26

Gym. Yeah, I work out a lot. I I I I force myself to be sociable because sometimes I can't be asked a lot of the time. I cannot be asked. I just want to sit in the house and watch Netflix and drink copious amounts of Diet Coke or Red Bull, and um and I just I love my home comforts now. Um, but I I actually have to give myself a push because also that's not a safe and healthy place to be either. And and I make sure that I'm I'm sociable with my mates and we just do other things. I'm uh love food still, absolutely fucking love food. So we will go out to eat and we'll go to the cinema or or or meet them at the gym or go for a run. And I've got dogs now. I've got two dogs and they keep me very occupied.

Quickfire Questions And Wrap Up

SPEAKER_11 42:13

And and Michelle, before we finish, if anyone's listened to our podcast series and and you've experienced this twice before, I do like to finish, because we spoke about some heavy stuff today. I like to finish with 10 quick fire questions.

SPEAKER_04 42:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_11 42:24

You've got to be as quick as you can with the question.

SPEAKER_04 42:27

I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_11 42:28

My first one is what's your favourite word?

SPEAKER_10 42:33

There you know it! Shit. Least favourite word.

SPEAKER_04 42:37

Oh, least favourite. Oh, well, I can't say it. I don't want to. C C U N T.

SPEAKER_10 42:45

Tell me something that excites you.

SPEAKER_04 42:47

Something that excites me. Oh, burning more than 200 calories in a gym class.

SPEAKER_11 42:52

What bores you or drains your energy?

SPEAKER_04 42:55

Moaning.

SPEAKER_10 42:56

What sound or noise do you love?

SPEAKER_04 43:01

Oh. An email. I'm a bit weird. I love my emails.

SPEAKER_10 43:06

Probably my least terrorism. What sound or noise do you hate? When the washing machine's done.

SPEAKER_04 43:11

I hate it every oh when do you feel most like yourself? Uh when I've had my shower at night and I'm in my PJs, and I'm sitting on the sofa with the dogs lying next to me, and they're all calm. We we've got Netflix on, all of Ireland.

SPEAKER_11 43:27

What profession other than your own would you like to attempt?

SPEAKER_10 43:34

I'd love to be an astronaut. What profession would you not like to do?

SPEAKER_04 43:39

Work with children.

SPEAKER_11 43:41

Understandable. And lastly, if heaven exists, what would you like to hear God say when you arrive at the Pearley gate?

SPEAKER_05 43:52

You did it!

SPEAKER_10 43:54

Michelle, thank you so much for joining me on the new people!

SPEAKER_11 43:58

And thank you, you guys have been. A lovely, lovely audience, honestly. Thank you so much. Appreciate it.

Audience Q&A And Practical Advice

SPEAKER_11 44:06

We are we are gonna do a little QA as well. So if anybody has any specific questions like you'd like to ask, Michelle, my colleague Robbie's gonna be going around with a uh with a with a microphone. We've got about ten minutes or so, so we can get a few questions in.

SPEAKER_06 44:21

Hi, Michelle. Hi, yeah. Hi, I just want to know that day you you met Katie Price, do you think if you didn't have met her that day, you wouldn't be where you are today?

SPEAKER_04 44:30

Yeah, good question. I I I I hope I would have had an encounter with somebody who was in recovery, but you but that's very wise and apt to think that I wouldn't be here today, yeah. I I know I I was I was dying, like I got told I had weeks and and yeah, so quite possibly wouldn't be here today.

SPEAKER_11 44:53

Thank you.

SPEAKER_09 44:54

If you had the chance to go back and ask yourself a question when you were a teenager about your future and being a pop star, what what advice would you give yourself?

SPEAKER_04 45:06

Good one. I probably wouldn't have listened to it, but I think the best advice I would have given myself is is is do your best to shut out the noise. There's a lot of noise being in this industry. A lot of words were written about myself that I I believed and and it definitely defined the way I felt about my body and how I chat it and my actions. The other girls in the band are really good at shutting that off. And and I wasn't so so yeah, maybe that.

SPEAKER_02 45:41

Hi Michelle.

SPEAKER_04 45:42

Hi yeah.

SPEAKER_06 45:43

Are you treated any are you applauded in your kind of showbiz world for for speaking out and kind of being an advocate for somebody in recovery? Like, yeah, how is that received?

SPEAKER_04 45:55

Uh uh if I knew it would be so greatly received, I would have probably got in recovery or asked for help way before I did. I was so convinced it would have been ill-received and everything would have been taken away from me. Um, but it's quite the opposite. Now, of course, it took time to gain people's trust or people to want to hire me for work, especially TV shows. But but it actually brought a new sense of trust on me, actually. And and it's it's it's been way better than I could ever imagine.

SPEAKER_07 46:27

I am Michelle. Um, thank you so much for today. Really, really got me. I'm alcoholic, cocaine addict, mother. But anyway, it's a bit of a mental health attack one as well as your addictions. So I during my addiction, I was tiny, really skinny, like I put four stone on in my three and a half years of sobriety. But now I'm starting perimenopause and this, that, and the other. How did you call Puppy? Because I'm really struggling, I can't even wear tight clothes, I feel disgusting, I hate what I see because alcohol and cocaine gave me this security blanket, and I know I was tiny, tiny, and I just keep looking back. I found my hot pants, I wore it for my 40s the other week. Yeah, they were size six, and they were big on me then. Wow. And I'm like, what the fuck? But I miss it.

SPEAKER_04 47:25

I understand. I I get you, and you know, you can only say that in a room full of addicts. Like, I get it. Like for me, I I went up and down in in in my addictions. I was um I was really blown up and swollen a lot of the time, and then I'd be skinny again. And uh, and and so I understand it makes perfect sense to me to be like, oh my god, I was that skinny, I want to be like that again. But we were so ill, we were so sick, we were gonna die. So, did you know? I remember Kate Moss once saying, It nothing tastes as good as being skinny, but actually, you know, we would have died saying saying like that, because that the only way to stay that skinny would be to continue what we were doing. And I think with menopause, it's just so important to get your HRT right. Oh my god, like HRT has saved me. It really has. I took a lot of fighting with my GP um and had to had to then go privately as well in the end, because um, again, there's not a lot available, it's fucking awful out there, it really is. Trying to get testosterone is like a no-go unless you pay for it. It's it's shocking, it needs to change. But is there's anything I can say, and if you're able to do it, HRT is literally a lifesaver.

SPEAKER_08 48:40

Hi, Michelle. Hi yeah. Thank you for sharing. It's been so inspiring and well done on five years. My question is what do you have a mantra that keeps you going on your abstinence journey that keeps you strong?

SPEAKER_04 48:54

I I I mean, you know, I suppose I do the serenity prayer. I've got it tattooed just in case I forget, which I'm not gonna. I don't know why. Why do we do that? We always get things tattooed to remind ourselves, and like I know my kids' names. Um but yeah, God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things that I can, and the wisdom to know the difference because that applies to everything. I remember in early recovery, I'd say that a lot, and it was usually when I needed to breathe before reacted to the kids, but it's just it's just says it all for me, you know. Like quite often we want to change the way we, you know, somebody else is with us and and we can't. And and that was a lot of lot of my you know addictions was you know, it's your fault. You know, you did this to me, how dare you? I drink because of you, and you know, it really is none of that.

SPEAKER_03 49:48

Hi, Michelle. My name's Tim. Thank you for your story. I I'd loved your honesty, it took a lot of strength from that. Um, I'm someone who works for a peer-led recovery service, so everyone's lived experience of addiction. And I'd love to know thinking about your own recovery journey, what was it that the professionals or the peers that you had interaction with with all the different services that you went through that made you feel truly understood rather than judged? And what can um like we as an audience learn from that?

SPEAKER_04 50:20

Uh when I was in the priory, I didn't know this until after I left that the counsellors were ex-addicts, were addicts. And so I thought that actually had I known that I might have opened up even more. I do think that when you're talking to somebody, uh you it's to be relatable to to that person, and so if I'm talking to somebody who isn't like me, I feel like I have to go on and convince them. Whereas if I'm talking to somebody who relates and who can participate in a conversation, then you're gonna get more out of me and trust, you know, somebody who can who you feel you can trust and non-judgy words, you know. What have you done? Right is a big no-no, you know, talk to me, you know. Just just a general conversation is just so much more helpful than a direct questioning. But yeah, trust is huge.

SPEAKER_00 51:24

Hi, Michelle. My question is what advice would you give to other mums who are scared of asking for help because they're scared of losing their children?

SPEAKER_11 51:34

That's one of my questions that got sent in as well. So was that you?

SPEAKER_00 51:39

It wasn't. I I've worked with an organ a specialist women's organization. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 51:44

And yeah, it's something that's a big issue. Yeah, absolutely. I think I think like the the beauty of not being a celebrity is like you can remain anonymous, right? And if you go and ask for help, ring the you know, the Samaritans. I know I've I've advised a lot of people to ring the Samaritans online or or likewise that will point you in the right direction of getting the advice on on where you stand with that, you know, which is beyond my pay grade. I I I wouldn't know really what services are out there to help legal advice. But what I do know is that when I when it was found out that I was in a primary and I was getting these things, the school had a duty to the call, and that obviously very much frightened us as a family. And I believe that the language that was used initially is scary because they have to give you the worst case scenario. There is a, you know, a chance that your children will be taken away, blah, blah, blah, and then you think the worst, but actually that's just you know, what's what's good to remember is that's just an automatic thing that would be sent out. I think I think the school were very, very helpful, very accommodating. Like I remember when Fraith was going to school, she like the headmistress done her hair. So I think getting a good school, you know, to work with the family is often, you know, a really, really good idea and quite warm and welcoming. I found that it wasn't that scary in the end. You you you can fantasize and dramaticise everything in your head and and think that this is going to be the worst case scenario, but actually, people don't want to take your kids off you. The services don't want to have to do that. They will avoid that in any in any scenario if they can keep the kids there. I think like there was never a point where I thought they were going to do it. They were looking at are the kids happy and are they stable in the house? And and that was never a question.

SPEAKER_02 53:39

Thank you, Michelle. Been really interesting. I was interested in you mentioned an addiction to cocaine and alcohol. So I I guess it when you did your detox, they would have focused on both of those issues. I haven't said much about when you came out about the cocaine side of it. I wondered whether I I went through AA, for example, but I wondered whether you went to NA or AA as well, or or that sort of relationship between cocaine and alcohol after you came out, how that went.

SPEAKER_04 54:05

Yeah, so I started off in AA because I fundamentally thought it was just alcohol. That was my main problem because cocaine came along when I was drunk, and so I didn't quite understand that I was a coke addict to begin with. And then I think when I was in AA for a few weeks, I think I was sharing my story, and somebody had mentioned um you might quite like CA, and I hadn't even heard of it. I didn't even know there was a C A or an N A or an OA, and so I looked into it and and then I went to one and I found my people for me. I related more to both sides of the story, and what I liked about CA is that it was it was, you know, it's anything really. Any addiction is is welcome there. And I felt with AA I couldn't quite share my story knowing that I was actually a cocaine addict as well.

SPEAKER_11 54:58

Thank you. Can we have a big round of applause from Michelle? Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_02 55:03

Thank you.

SPEAKER_05 55:04

Thank you.

SPEAKER_11 55:06

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